Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[MrMiyagi]

So when the TWolves ever get to 40 wins, they'll be in purgatory and the worst position in the NBA, right? Or will they get a pass because they have players pre-anointed as superstars? I mean, was New Orleans in purgatory last season? Should they've shipped out their whole team?

The Suns have been sitting in purgatory for 3 years. The Wolves and Pelicans bottomed out and got #1 picks. You can't possibly be serious comparing the two. And LMAO at calling Anthony Davis nothing more than a per-annointed superstar.

He would probably say that he would take all Suns player over Anthony Davis too...just like he said about Wiggins.

If McD was given the chance to trade for Wiggins or Davis, he would piss his pants at the opportunity and absolutely give them whatever it takes even if it means all 14 or 15 players on the damn roster.

There's not one non Suns fan on Earth who would seriously take the Suns roster over Minnesota's. It's not even being a homer, it's insulting.

I forgot, hating your team because the General Board says you suck makes you such a better basketball fan. Seriously, why are you a Suns fan? You don't like anything the team is doing.

[JTrain]

I guess we can all redefine treadmill to suit our needs for argument. I think your picture defines it perfectly. Staying in the same place.

In our case, we are more like a 70 year guy on the treadmill 4 and 5 years ago, who, I guess you could compare to the movie selfless, where he then started slowing down for a year, dumps his consciousness into a younger body, and quickly gained speed and muscle. Recently he had a hamstring pull though, but this summer got fully healed, got some super vitamins and is now ready to go, feeling more youthful and vigourous than ever. He also got a veteran runner to show him how to really get where he is going fast, and he is soon about to jump off that treadmill and start running up camelback mountain.

Hmm. I'm not sure you nailed the Self/less plot. I don't know if there were hamstring injuries or vitamins involved. But the movie was apparently a massively sucky letdown, so I guess you could go that route with the analogy.

But anyway... we haven't made the playoffs for five seasons and counting. Our best player will be 33. None of the other players are on the obvious path to stardom. And the Western conference remains awesome.

So, call it a treadmill or don't. But most fans would at the very least call not making the playoffs for 5+ years "not very fun".

[bwgood77]

I guess we can all redefine treadmill to suit our needs for argument. I think your picture defines it perfectly. Staying in the same place.

In our case, we are more like a 70 year guy on the treadmill 4 and 5 years ago, who, I guess you could compare to the movie selfless, where he then started slowing down for a year, dumps his consciousness into a younger body, and quickly gained speed and muscle. Recently he had a hamstring pull though, but this summer got fully healed, got some super vitamins and is now ready to go, feeling more youthful and vigourous than ever. He also got a veteran runner to show him how to really get where he is going fast, and he is soon about to jump off that treadmill and start running up camelback mountain.

Hmm. I'm not sure you nailed the Self/less plot. I don't know if there were hamstring injuries or vitamins involved. But the movie was apparently a massively sucky letdown, so I guess you could go that route with the analogy.

But anyway... we haven't made the playoffs for five seasons and counting. Our best player will be 33. None of the other players are on the obvious path to stardom. And the Western conference remains awesome.

So, call it a treadmill or don't. But most fans would at the very least call not making the playoffs for 5+ years "not very fun".

Well I saw Self/Less and it wasn't NEARLY as bad as the critics say it is, much like the Suns. You can say I am in blind denial, but it was an entertaining movie if you are looking to be entertained but what do you want the Suns to do? Abandon all the players they have added and become Philly? Recently you were making twitter posts for Aldridge...was that the difference between absolute crap and a championship in your opinion?

[saintEscaton]

By the time we come full circle and realize we haven't gone anywhere in our hamster wheel we will surpassed by the rest of the Wild West and no longer be stuck in the bowels of perpetual mediocrity to finally cement our unchallenged status as cellar dwellers. Hoepfully this awakening happens by the end of this decade. (Can't avoid it.Everybody has to spend some time in the bottom totem.ts the law of the cosmic food chain, eat or be eaten predator becomes prey. You can try to fake it as a pretender but you're gonna get cannibalized , poached and beaten up by real contenders until you are put in your rightful place)

[JTrain]

Well I saw Self/Less and it wasn't NEARLY as bad as the critics say it is, much like the Suns. You can say I am in blind denial, but it was an entertaining movie if you are looking to be entertained but what do you want the Suns to do? Abandon all the players they have added and become Philly? Recently you were making twitter posts for Aldridge...was that the difference between absolute crap and a championship in your opinion?

Is this about whether we are on the treadmill or how to get off? The latter is way above my pay grade. But since you ask, I think getting LMA would have made us fun and relevant (i.e. playoffs, probably top 5-6 seed and chance to get to second round) but without him, I would prefer to tank, get a top three pick and play the crap out of Archie, Warren and Booker this season.

For me personally, my enthusiasm for the bloody battle for the eighth seed has worn very thin. That's not to say I won't cheer us on when we're in the thick of it once again. (I contain multitudes and all that.)

[bwgood77]

Well I saw Self/Less and it wasn't NEARLY as bad as the critics say it is, much like the Suns. You can say I am in blind denial, but it was an entertaining movie if you are looking to be entertained but what do you want the Suns to do? Abandon all the players they have added and become Philly? Recently you were making twitter posts for Aldridge...was that the difference between absolute crap and a championship in your opinion?

Is this about whether we are on the treadmill or how to get off? The latter is way above my pay grade. But since you ask, I think getting LMA would have made us fun and relevant (i.e. playoffs, probably top 5-6 seed and chance to get to second round) but without him, I would prefer to tank, get a top three pick and play the crap out of Archie, Warren and Booker this season.

For me personally, my enthusiasm for the bloody battle for the eighth seed has worn very thin. That's not to say I won't cheer us on when we're in the thick of it once again. (I contain multitudes and all that.)

I can see all angles. I choose to try and be optimistic about whatever angle we take unless the FO makes terrible decisions. I don't think we have a big chance in getting better really young talent than the really young teams, and we don't have the talent to compete with the contenders. It is frustrating, but given our circumstances, I think the FO has done a pretty good job and I will pull for it to succeed...that's what a fan does. I hope Warren becomes a star....and Booker is a stud shooter...and Len and Chandler stay healthy.

The truth is, we are caught in the middle, but if we tore it all down right now, we would be WAY behind some of the younger teams and would be set back like 10 years.

[Revived]

The Suns have been sitting in purgatory for 3 years. The Wolves and Pelicans bottomed out and got #1 picks. You can't possibly be serious comparing the two. And LMAO at calling Anthony Davis nothing more than a per-annointed superstar.

He would probably say that he would take all Suns player over Anthony Davis too...just like he said about Wiggins.

If McD was given the chance to trade for Wiggins or Davis, he would piss his pants at the opportunity and absolutely give them whatever it takes even if it means all 14 or 15 players on the damn roster.

There's not one non Suns fan on Earth who would seriously take the Suns roster over Minnesota's. It's not even being a homer, it's insulting.

I forgot, hating your team because the General Board says you suck makes you such a better basketball fan. Seriously, why are you a Suns fan? You don't like anything the team is doing.

Yea I don't like anything that we're doing because I don't blindly support every player on the team. Must be why I showed my full support for the Chandler and Teletovic signings.

Funny because me and others here showed my animosity for players like the Marcus Morris and Gerald Green during the season while you and others homers blindly supported them and now eventually even you have turned against them.

You can call me a hater all you want but I see it the way it is. Whether you disagree with me now or not over whatever topic, you will eventually come to realize that I was right like few months later.

I still remember you degraded me for saying that the Suns won't make the playoffs last December (I said it because we lost to way too many bad teams) and again, I ended up right even though I hoped that I wasn't so we can finally get some meaningful games to watch in late April.

And don't put words in my mouth, I never said I'm a "better" basketball fan than anyone. I don't think I'm a better basketball fan than anyone, I don't even know what that means.

You commented on this thread with your typical green colored sarcastic bs post to mock and call me out so I called you out on your Twolves > Suns roster thing.

[Revived]

Is this about whether we are on the treadmill or how to get off? The latter is way above my pay grade. But since you ask, I think getting LMA would have made us fun and relevant (i.e. playoffs, probably top 5-6 seed and chance to get to second round) but without him, I would prefer to tank, get a top three pick and play the crap out of Archie, Warren and Booker this season.

For me personally, my enthusiasm for the bloody battle for the eighth seed has worn very thin. That's not to say I won't cheer us on when we're in the thick of it once again. (I contain multitudes and all that.)

Exactly how I see it as well. And Suns fans aren't alone in this, I know Boston fans who were upset the Celtics didn't tank instead of getting a bad pick and getting their ass kicked in the playoffs in the first round as well.

Boston actually has those real nice Nets picks as well.

I just don't see the fascination of gunning for the 8th seed with this roster. If we had a young rising player with potential like say Davis, or Wiggins or Parker or Cousins etc I would say lets do it because making playoffs is step 2 of the rebuild. Step 1 is finding a rising player with franchise player/star potential and IMO (the IMO needs to clear), we're skipping step 1 to get to step 2.

One thing I will say is that this franchise is in much better hands than it was like say 3-4 years ago under Blanks. True. McD has a clue unlike the idiot Blanks. However, I'm not sure about the direction we're heading in.

Honestly speaking, I wonder if Sarver is the one forcing this "make playoffs NOW" crap on McD based on his "I'm impatient" comments.

[DrFunke]

If only building a team was as easy as tank for a year or two, gather a top pick or two, and then collect titles. In my mind, there are so many ways to build a team that wins. If you have a plan, and can carry it out, I think you're ahead of half the NBA.

Leonard was mentioned as a top talent (15th pick I believe).
The only top 5 pick on the Warriors was Bogut (I think).
The Celtics won a title by signing 2 big free agents to pair with Paul Pierce who I believe was a mid first round pick (just going by my admittedly faulty memory).
The Pacers were in the conference finals with Paul George (mid round), David West (mid round), Roy Hibbert (mid round).
The Blazers lost a bunch and got that desired #1 pick with top talent, and drafted Oden. There is just no guarantee you'll even draft the right guy if you tank/lose.

There is no doubt that having a transcendent superstar is hugely helpful, but I don't think you have to sacrifice your team for years and draft in the top 5 to win like the 76ers have planned. And honestly, I'm not sold on Okafor. It will be interesting to see him develop, but his efficiency in iso post ups (the strength we all hear about) during the summer was not good in the 3 or 4 games I watched of his. There was a fair amount of times he looked to be struggling to get decent shots off against non NBA centers. I suppose that makes me crazy, but that's what I saw!

[bwgood77]

If only building a team was as easy as tank for a year or two, gather a top pick or two, and then collect titles. In my mind, there are so many ways to build a team that wins. If you have a plan, and can carry it out, I think you're ahead of half the NBA.

Leonard was mentioned as a top talent (15th pick I believe).
The only top 5 pick on the Warriors was Bogut (I think).
The Celtics won a title by signing 2 big free agents to pair with Paul Pierce who I believe was a mid first round pick (just going by my admittedly faulty memory).
The Pacers were in the conference finals with Paul George (mid round), David West (mid round), Roy Hibbert (mid round).
The Blazers lost a bunch and got that desired #1 pick with top talent, and drafted Oden. There is just no guarantee you'll even draft the right guy if you tank/lose.

There is no doubt that having a transcendent superstar is hugely helpful, but I don't think you have to sacrifice your team for years and draft in the top 5 to win like the 76ers have planned. And honestly, I'm not sold on Okafor. It will be interesting to see him develop, but his efficiency in iso post ups (the strength we all hear about) during the summer was not good in the 3 or 4 games I watched of his. There was a fair amount of times he looked to be struggling to get decent shots off against non NBA centers. I suppose that makes me crazy, but that's what I saw!

Great post, and I agree with your opinions. Your posts seem very well grounded, so keep posting.

[bwgood77]

Is this about whether we are on the treadmill or how to get off? The latter is way above my pay grade. But since you ask, I think getting LMA would have made us fun and relevant (i.e. playoffs, probably top 5-6 seed and chance to get to second round) but without him, I would prefer to tank, get a top three pick and play the crap out of Archie, Warren and Booker this season.

For me personally, my enthusiasm for the bloody battle for the eighth seed has worn very thin. That's not to say I won't cheer us on when we're in the thick of it once again. (I contain multitudes and all that.)

Exactly how I see it as well. And Suns fans aren't alone in this, I know Boston fans who were upset the Celtics didn't tank instead of getting a bad pick and getting their ass kicked in the playoffs in the first round as well.

Boston actually has those real nice Nets picks as well.

I just don't see the fascination of gunning for the 8th seed with this roster. If we had a young rising player with potential like say Davis, or Wiggins or Parker or Cousins etc I would say lets do it because making playoffs is step 2 of the rebuild. Step 1 is finding a rising player with franchise player/star potential and IMO (the IMO needs to clear), we're skipping step 1 to get to step 2.

One thing I will say is that this franchise is in much better hands than it was like say 3-4 years ago under Blanks. True. McD has a clue unlike the idiot Blanks. However, I'm not sure about the direction we're heading in.

Honestly speaking, I wonder if Sarver is the one forcing this "make playoffs NOW" crap on McD based on his "I'm impatient" comments.

Well seriously, what do you want us to do? We have pretty much traded away all of our older players and happened to rebuild faster than expected. Do we have a star? Not yet, but neither do the younger teams. They have guys who are predicted to be stars but that is it. Would you bench half our players in hopes to get Ben Simmons, which at best, even if we were the worst team in the league, would only have a 25% chance of getting him? Complaining about where we are is tough, because we can't tank...we can continue to build our young players.

It's too bad you are not high on Len, Warren and Booker, because, to me, I think they have a chance to be really good. We are much like the Chargers (and I mention them because I know you are a Chargers fan yet it appears you took them off your profile because perhaps you are changing loyalties). I want to pull for our team and hope for the best and not spend time complaining. Signing an additional starting caliber pg when we already had two and Marcus' actions made me unhappy with what transpired last year, but I still hope for the best, and you never know.

[lilfishi22]

If only building a team was as easy as tank for a year or two, gather a top pick or two, and then collect titles. In my mind, there are so many ways to build a team that wins. If you have a plan, and can carry it out, I think you're ahead of half the NBA.

Leonard was mentioned as a top talent (15th pick I believe).
The only top 5 pick on the Warriors was Bogut (I think).
The Celtics won a title by signing 2 big free agents to pair with Paul Pierce who I believe was a mid first round pick (just going by my admittedly faulty memory).
The Pacers were in the conference finals with Paul George (mid round), David West (mid round), Roy Hibbert (mid round).
The Blazers lost a bunch and got that desired #1 pick with top talent, and drafted Oden. There is just no guarantee you'll even draft the right guy if you tank/lose.

There is no doubt that having a transcendent superstar is hugely helpful, but I don't think you have to sacrifice your team for years and draft in the top 5 to win like the 76ers have planned. And honestly, I'm not sold on Okafor. It will be interesting to see him develop, but his efficiency in iso post ups (the strength we all hear about) during the summer was not good in the 3 or 4 games I watched of his. There was a fair amount of times he looked to be struggling to get decent shots off against non NBA centers. I suppose that makes me crazy, but that's what I saw!

Great post. Completely agree.

The Wolves have been tanking for years and every few years they think they've stumbled onto "the one" that would propel them into a contender. For as much young talent as they've acquired over the years, they still haven't made playoffs since 03-04.

[Revived]

Is this about whether we are on the treadmill or how to get off? The latter is way above my pay grade. But since you ask, I think getting LMA would have made us fun and relevant (i.e. playoffs, probably top 5-6 seed and chance to get to second round) but without him, I would prefer to tank, get a top three pick and play the crap out of Archie, Warren and Booker this season.

For me personally, my enthusiasm for the bloody battle for the eighth seed has worn very thin. That's not to say I won't cheer us on when we're in the thick of it once again. (I contain multitudes and all that.)

Exactly how I see it as well. And Suns fans aren't alone in this, I know Boston fans who were upset the Celtics didn't tank instead of getting a bad pick and getting their ass kicked in the playoffs in the first round as well.

Boston actually has those real nice Nets picks as well.

I just don't see the fascination of gunning for the 8th seed with this roster. If we had a young rising player with potential like say Davis, or Wiggins or Parker or Cousins etc I would say lets do it because making playoffs is step 2 of the rebuild. Step 1 is finding a rising player with franchise player/star potential and IMO (the IMO needs to clear), we're skipping step 1 to get to step 2.

One thing I will say is that this franchise is in much better hands than it was like say 3-4 years ago under Blanks. True. McD has a clue unlike the idiot Blanks. However, I'm not sure about the direction we're heading in.

Honestly speaking, I wonder if Sarver is the one forcing this "make playoffs NOW" crap on McD based on his "I'm impatient" comments.

Well seriously, what do you want us to do? We have pretty much traded away all of our older players and happened to rebuild faster than expected. Do we have a star? Not yet, but neither do the younger teams. They have guys who are predicted to be stars but that is it. Would you bench half our players in hopes to get Ben Simmons, which at best, even if we were the worst team in the league, would only have a 25% chance of getting him? Complaining about where we are is tough, because we can't tank...we can continue to build our young players.

It's too bad you are not high on Len, Warren and Booker, because, to me, I think they have a chance to be really good. We are much like the Chargers (and I mention them because I know you are a Chargers fan yet it appears you took them off your profile because perhaps you are changing loyalties). I want to pull for our team and hope for the best and not spend time complaining. Signing an additional starting caliber pg when we already had two and Marcus' actions made me unhappy with what transpired last year, but I still hope for the best, and you never know.

I was really high on Len but his injuries have started to make me sour on him. I like Warren a lot and I think he should even start and will be a good starter but I'm not sure if he has the ability to be our franchise star that we can build around. Booker is a solid pick and who I wanted them to draft so I like him but I know their not gonna play him for like another 3 years unless injuries so pointless to even talk about him IMO.

And no lol I'm not switching loyalties to the Chargers even though I know many are due to their likely change to Los Angeles. I took off all team emblems off my profile, not just the Chargers but Red Sox and Suns as well.

I definitely like this off season lot more than I did last year's when our signings were IT and Tolliver. However, I'm in the group that is not ok with the Suns gunning for the 8th seed for the next 5-10 years.

And you mention those young teams don't have stars but have guys who are predicted to be stars based on their play. Ok, who on the Suns has shown they have the promise to be a franchise star? Closest is Warren because he can at least stay healthy but even then, he really hasn't shown much ability to create his own shot which is something most stars in this league have.

[DrFunke]

If only building a team was as easy as tank for a year or two, gather a top pick or two, and then collect titles. In my mind, there are so many ways to build a team that wins. If you have a plan, and can carry it out, I think you're ahead of half the NBA.

Leonard was mentioned as a top talent (15th pick I believe).
The only top 5 pick on the Warriors was Bogut (I think).
The Celtics won a title by signing 2 big free agents to pair with Paul Pierce who I believe was a mid first round pick (just going by my admittedly faulty memory).
The Pacers were in the conference finals with Paul George (mid round), David West (mid round), Roy Hibbert (mid round).
The Blazers lost a bunch and got that desired #1 pick with top talent, and drafted Oden. There is just no guarantee you'll even draft the right guy if you tank/lose.

There is no doubt that having a transcendent superstar is hugely helpful, but I don't think you have to sacrifice your team for years and draft in the top 5 to win like the 76ers have planned. And honestly, I'm not sold on Okafor. It will be interesting to see him develop, but his efficiency in iso post ups (the strength we all hear about) during the summer was not good in the 3 or 4 games I watched of his. There was a fair amount of times he looked to be struggling to get decent shots off against non NBA centers. I suppose that makes me crazy, but that's what I saw!

Great post, and I agree with your opinions. Your posts seem very well grounded, so keep posting.

Thanks. I lurk quite a bit, but always good to talk a little basketball!

[DrFunke]

If only building a team was as easy as tank for a year or two, gather a top pick or two, and then collect titles. In my mind, there are so many ways to build a team that wins. If you have a plan, and can carry it out, I think you're ahead of half the NBA.

Leonard was mentioned as a top talent (15th pick I believe).
The only top 5 pick on the Warriors was Bogut (I think).
The Celtics won a title by signing 2 big free agents to pair with Paul Pierce who I believe was a mid first round pick (just going by my admittedly faulty memory).
The Pacers were in the conference finals with Paul George (mid round), David West (mid round), Roy Hibbert (mid round).
The Blazers lost a bunch and got that desired #1 pick with top talent, and drafted Oden. There is just no guarantee you'll even draft the right guy if you tank/lose.

There is no doubt that having a transcendent superstar is hugely helpful, but I don't think you have to sacrifice your team for years and draft in the top 5 to win like the 76ers have planned. And honestly, I'm not sold on Okafor. It will be interesting to see him develop, but his efficiency in iso post ups (the strength we all hear about) during the summer was not good in the 3 or 4 games I watched of his. There was a fair amount of times he looked to be struggling to get decent shots off against non NBA centers. I suppose that makes me crazy, but that's what I saw!

Great post. Completely agree.

The Wolves have been tanking for years and every few years they think they've stumbled onto "the one" that would propel them into a contender. For as much young talent as they've acquired over the years, they still haven't made playoffs since 03-04.

You know, the other thing I always wonder is what being in the bottom five teams for multiple years does to your players. They aren't robots/video game characters. They get tired of beating their heads against a wall too. I suppose that's that unquantifiable "culture of losing" that is hard to define, but it seems like if you go out 82 times per year for multiple years knowing you are going to lose/have no shot after early December, you don't practice quite as sharp or work on all the small "winning" details. You get sloppy and some of those intangibles suffer I would think. And that sort of stuff gets passed on to the rookies coming in.

It's hard to really say for sure how big of an impact that is (or if that really is an impact), but that would be something I would be wary of starting a multi year tank/build through draft process.

[bwgood77]

And you mention those young teams don't have stars but have guys who are predicted to be stars based on their play. Ok, who on the Suns has shown they have the promise to be a franchise star? Closest is Warren because he can at least stay healthy but even then, he really hasn't shown much ability to create his own shot which is something most stars in this league have.

Stars are not stars until they prove it. Shabazz, Embiid, a ton of high Clippers picks, Cavs picks, Wizard picks..the list goes on....I started to name all the players but you simply never know.

I agree, we are in a tough spot...not bad enough to get a surefire superstar like Simmons, but after guys like Davis, Griffin, etc, it is pretty much a crapshoot. You never know.

We really can't take for a high pick, because we have some talent, and we likely won't compete at a high level

I'm sure you have read my posts about the great teams being better and the worst teams having more talent except for Denver, but what good does being pessimistic do? I hope for the best.

[Revived]

And you mention those young teams don't have stars but have guys who are predicted to be stars based on their play. Ok, who on the Suns has shown they have the promise to be a franchise star? Closest is Warren because he can at least stay healthy but even then, he really hasn't shown much ability to create his own shot which is something most stars in this league have.

Stars are not stars until they prove it. Shabazz, Embiid, a ton of high Clippers picks, Cavs picks, Wizard picks..the list goes on....I started to name all the players but you simply never know.

I agree, we are in a tough spot...not bad enough to get a surefire superstar like Simmons, but after guys like Davis, Griffin, etc, it is pretty much a crapshoot. You never know.

We really can't take for a high pick, because we have some talent, and we likely won't compete at a high level

I'm sure you have read my posts about the great teams being better and the worst teams having more talent except for Denver, but what good does being pessimistic do? I hope for the best.

Sure I don't think having a top pick alone gives you great players especially if your GM is an idiot. An example is Twolves who has had ton of high draft picks under Khan but I don't know if any of them has amounted to anything. But having a top pick and with the right scouting and right FO staff can give the chance to get someone special.

And come on man you too with the pessimistic stuff? We're all Suns fans here who want this team to win otherwise we'd all have much better stuff to do than spend time on a message forum, especially in the summer. We're all hoping for the best and for this team to at least win a ring or even get to the finals again in our lifetime.

I do agree that we can't tank for a high pick because of the talent on the roster. And its not enough talent to compete at a high level so we're kinda in the middle ground. You are correct there.

[Revived]

If only building a team was as easy as tank for a year or two, gather a top pick or two, and then collect titles. In my mind, there are so many ways to build a team that wins. If you have a plan, and can carry it out, I think you're ahead of half the NBA.

Leonard was mentioned as a top talent (15th pick I believe).
The only top 5 pick on the Warriors was Bogut (I think).
The Celtics won a title by signing 2 big free agents to pair with Paul Pierce who I believe was a mid first round pick (just going by my admittedly faulty memory).
The Pacers were in the conference finals with Paul George (mid round), David West (mid round), Roy Hibbert (mid round).
The Blazers lost a bunch and got that desired #1 pick with top talent, and drafted Oden. There is just no guarantee you'll even draft the right guy if you tank/lose.

There is no doubt that having a transcendent superstar is hugely helpful, but I don't think you have to sacrifice your team for years and draft in the top 5 to win like the 76ers have planned. And honestly, I'm not sold on Okafor. It will be interesting to see him develop, but his efficiency in iso post ups (the strength we all hear about) during the summer was not good in the 3 or 4 games I watched of his. There was a fair amount of times he looked to be struggling to get decent shots off against non NBA centers. I suppose that makes me crazy, but that's what I saw!

You certainly make good points but you can also look at the other side and say, well SAS drafted Duncan who is the franchise star. Warriors drafted Curry who is the franchise star. Pelicans drafted Davis who is the franchise star. OKC drafted Durant who is the franchise star. Blazers drafted LMA who was their franchise star and now Lillard who is their franchise star. Clippers drafted Griffin who is their franchise star. These are basically all the good WCF teams who got their franchise player in the draft with a top 10 pick.

Sure there are other West teams like HOU and Memphis who developed their team with stars drafted elsewhere (Harden and Gasol) but there are more teams in the west currently who got their franchise guy through the draft with a top 10.

And like I said before, drafting top 10 doesn't equal franchise player. It really doesn't. Its up to the competence of the GM in control and his staff and some luck for the guy you draft to end up being a franchise star like those listed above.

Now like I said in the last post to bw, I don't think we can tank to get a high enough pick due to the talent on the roster. But I just wanted to show the other side of your argument.

[bwgood77]

And you mention those young teams don't have stars but have guys who are predicted to be stars based on their play. Ok, who on the Suns has shown they have the promise to be a franchise star? Closest is Warren because he can at least stay healthy but even then, he really hasn't shown much ability to create his own shot which is something most stars in this league have.

Stars are not stars until they prove it. Shabazz, Embiid, a ton of high Clippers picks, Cavs picks, Wizard picks..the list goes on....I started to name all the players but you simply never know.

I agree, we are in a tough spot...not bad enough to get a surefire superstar like Simmons, but after guys like Davis, Griffin, etc, it is pretty much a crapshoot. You never know.

We really can't take for a high pick, because we have some talent, and we likely won't compete at a high level

I'm sure you have read my posts about the great teams being better and the worst teams having more talent except for Denver, but what good does being pessimistic do? I hope for the best.

Sure I don't think having a top pick alone gives you great players especially if your GM is an idiot. An example is Twolves who has had ton of high draft picks under Khan but I don't know if any of them has amounted to anything. But having a top pick and with the right scouting and right FO staff can give the chance to get someone special.

And come on man you too with the pessimistic stuff? We're all Suns fans here who want this team to win otherwise we'd all have much better stuff to do than spend time on a message forum, especially in the summer. We're all hoping for the best and for this team to at least win a ring or even get to the finals again in our lifetime.

I do agree that we can't tank for a high pick because of the talent on the roster. And its not enough talent to compete at a high level so we're kinda in the middle ground. You are correct there.

When I talk about being pessimistic it's just because it is easy to see both sides, and you never know which way it will go, but hoping for the best is good. Sure, I don't like Knight or Bledsoe as much as KJ, Nash or Kidd, but I do like Warren a lot, and Len and Chandler are probably the best center tandem we have ever had. We could use that upgrade at PF, but we do have some young guys who could be exciting like Booker, and Bogdan could be a stud and a star.

I like Utah's core, and I know you don't like small ball as much or as I like to say it, stretching the floor to leave the defense scrambling, but Utah's bigs don't have range which could create problems. Minnesota could be scary down the line, or they could have major injuries or just not mesh well. I think we have solid depth and assets could be used for a solid trade.

[batsmasher]

The only treadmilling going on is the discussion in this thread.


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