Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 5

[bwoolf2]

It is interesting that two games ago, we were on our way. Jackson was improving, Chriss and a good game, Bender played effiencly, and all was rosey finally. Then we get blown out by Indy, and everything is all horrible again.

This is a good young team. We are dealing with a lot of injuries and sickness at the moment and we are entering a brutal section of our schedule. We are going to lose--a lot. Its Ok. The world won't come to an end. We will look for the bright moments in the darkness. If Devin struggles, its OK. We already know how good he is. We would like to see better performances from Bender and JJ, but they are young and this is a learning experience.

I prefer wins right now, but losses do not alarm me.

This ^^^

The fact this team is winning as many games as we are with the PG rotation we have is a minor miracle.

[lilfishi22]

I'd still like to see what these guys could do in a traditional development scenario. Someone, anyone (because I'm not going to do the research to find the answer), tell me when the last time...or heck, if ever, a GM spent two top 10 picks on two under 20, highly-developmental players who played the same position, then tell me who they were, and how they both turned out to be great players...because surely McD must have had some type of blueprint to go off of when he decided to go that direction.

Seriously, all three of those guys are doomed...Chriss, Bender, and JJ. They're all going to fail. NOT because they aren't good enough, but because they are in an impossible situation. You've finally broken me down, Frank (well, not you...McD has done it with his dumb approach to team building), but I'm on the dump McD bandwagon the day after the Trade Deadline is over, if he has not traded one of the 2 PFs, and one of Warren or JJ.

Stupid waste of a 4th overall pick...TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!! Amazing, actually. I'm ok with 'sucking' the rest of the season, but then play JJ, and play Chriss or Bender...again (beating that dead horse)...Pick one! Really is a waste of draft picks if they don't start developing these kids, and letting Warren believe he's our starter of the future? That's a Dragic scenario waiting to happen again once he's 'sat' in favor of JJ.

I know you ignore the "positionless" basketball thing and the fact that you need 8 or so rotation players playing major minutes and who starts isn't always the most important....but...

The Celtics drafted SF Jaylen Brown #3. The following year they drafted SF Jayson Tatum #3, signed SF Gordon Hayward to a max and traded for SF Marcus Morris who often starts.

They all seem to be progressing fairly well. Hayward's injured, but given you wanted an example of two high lottery picks being drafted who play the same position there is one.

Funny thing is, in 2014 they took PG Marcus Smart #6 and then the next year they took PG Terry Rozier #16 and even traded for IT the same year. They all played quite a bit. They also had combo guard Avery Bradley in there. They still had those two young rookie contract PGs when trading for all star Kyrie Irving.

That team worked out ok and all their players seem to develop fairly well.


Also, you mentioned something about Brooklyn being in a dilemma. They want to start Dinwiddie and Russell together....I posted articles and links yesterday...they say Dinwiddie being 6'6 can guard any 2s...and Russell is great and sometimes better off ball.

I agree but they also have something most teams don't have. A Brad Stevens level head coach.

[lilfishi22]

When the Gambo suggestion that we're too good to be a bottom 7-8 team, IIRC we were 5.5 games from a playoff spot and 5 games from the #1 pick. We're now 3.5 games from that coveted bottom of the league position and 6.5 games away from a playoff spot. Looking at our schedule, I expect us to continue in this direction. Unless McD decides to make a move for a legit PG.

[BobbieL]

It is interesting that two games ago, we were on our way. Jackson was improving, Chriss and a good game, Bender played effiencly, and all was rosey finally. Then we get blown out by Indy, and everything is all horrible again.

This is a good young team. We are dealing with a lot of injuries and sickness at the moment and we are entering a brutal section of our schedule. We are going to lose--a lot. Its Ok. The world won't come to an end. We will look for the bright moments in the darkness. If Devin struggles, its OK. We already know how good he is. We would like to see better performances from Bender and JJ, but they are young and this is a learning experience.

I prefer wins right now, but losses do not alarm me.

This ^^^

The fact this team is winning as many games as we are with the PG rotation we have is a minor miracle.

Agree. As long as the players continue to improve, practice hard, listen to coach, give their best - if they win, more power to them. But if they lose - that's fine as long as the players (Chriss, Bender, Josh) - keep earning minutes and learning the game better.

I looked at the schedule the rest of the year - they have 38 games left and its pretty brutal. And if they make changes at the deadline like Chandler or Daniels - that will only create more losses. But even with Daniels and Chandler, I see maybe 13 and 25 record at best. Its pretty stout schedule. More likely, I see 10 and 28. The Suns are tied for 7th right now . I think they finish top 7 at worst. I don't see them improving based on the schedule

[BobbieL]

When the Gambo suggestion that we're too good to be a bottom 7-8 team, IIRC we were 5.5 games from a playoff spot and 5 games from the #1 pick. We're now 3.5 games from that coveted bottom of the league position and 6.5 games away from a playoff spot. Looking at our schedule, I expect us to continue in this direction. Unless McD decides to make a move for a legit PG.

Did Gambo look at the schedule ahead - I don't think he did. Unless other teams just tank it harder - I think the Suns - just on schedule alone -- will be a bottom 7 team. Maybe they are too good to be bottom 4 - but bottom 7 is certainly , to me, likely - without tanking .

[NavLDO]

Also. We aren't getting trae boys. Yea it sucks but that kid is going 1 or 2 (celtics?????? Are you kidding me?) Get over that wet dream now before you have a meltdown come lottery ball time.

If we're behind the Magic, we won't get Trae. Ain't no better fit in the whole draft.

I think there are plenty of interesting PG prospects in the bottom half of the draft if we're not enamored with Sexton. I'm betting we take a C with that top pick. Whether it's Bamba's length, Bagley's motor or Jackson's instincts, we're sure to have a favorite. If we had the top pick, I suspect we'd take Ayton.

Ain't that the truth.

I'm really interested in the trade deadline this year, actually. I would imagine that McD has to be starting to feel the 'sizzle' on his bottom a little bit, and I can't imagine him just sitting idly by while we have Cap Space, Assets, and Needs. We have this trade deadline, the FA period, and the Draft, and that's it for him to get this ship 'righted'. He might get one last shot next trade deadline, but if things are moving in the right direction by then, I'd imagine his bottom will be full-on in flames by then. yeah, I know he just got an extension, but that's just to eliminate any controversy/question marks.

McD doesn't need to 'fix' it all in one fell swoop, but if Monroe is still on our roster on February 9th, then I'll make the assumption that he'll be on our team next year, because there is ZERO chance any GM would allow a player of Monroe's age and skill to just walk off with no compensation, at the end of the season, right? Right.

So, I'll be interested to see what we get for Monroe, be it a 2nd Rd pick for him, straight up? Or if he'll be packaged with something else to bring in a another player. If it's a PG, say, a Veteran guy, then we pick someone like Sexton to develop behind him, then great, I'm all for it.

[BobbieL]

Also. We aren't getting trae boys. Yea it sucks but that kid is going 1 or 2 (celtics?????? Are you kidding me?) Get over that wet dream now before you have a meltdown come lottery ball time.

If we're behind the Magic, we won't get Trae. Ain't no better fit in the whole draft.

I think there are plenty of interesting PG prospects in the bottom half of the draft if we're not enamored with Sexton. I'm betting we take a C with that top pick. Whether it's Bamba's length, Bagley's motor or Jackson's instincts, we're sure to have a favorite. If we had the top pick, I suspect we'd take Ayton.

Ain't that the truth.

I'm really interested in the trade deadline this year, actually. I would imagine that McD has to be starting to feel the 'sizzle' on his bottom a little bit, and I can't imagine him just sitting idly by while we have Cap Space, Assets, and Needs. We have this trade deadline, the FA period, and the Draft, and that's it for him to get this ship 'righted'. He might get one last shot next trade deadline, but if things are moving in the right direction by then, I'd imagine his bottom will be full-on in flames by then. yeah, I know he just got an extension, but that's just to eliminate any controversy/question marks.

McD doesn't need to 'fix' it all in one fell swoop, but if Monroe is still on our roster on February 9th, then I'll make the assumption that he'll be on our team next year, because there is ZERO chance any GM would allow a player of Monroe's age and skill to just walk off with no compensation, at the end of the season, right? Right.

So, I'll be interested to see what we get for Monroe, be it a 2nd Rd pick for him, straight up? Or if he'll be packaged with something else to bring in a another player. If it's a PG, say, a Veteran guy, then we pick someone like Sexton to develop behind him, then great, I'm all for it.

So from the Suns, I see the following as assets to trade:
Monroe (expiring), Chriss (young talent who has gotten better), Daniels (very good contract) and the Heat pick plus maybe the future Milwaukee pick and as plethora of seconds - what can that get the Suns for all of that.

Chandler - it will be for a contract that expires next year unless you get the Twolves to bite on Aldrich/Bejelica type deal - wonder if they would - Suns would clear boat loads of cap space - and Chandler probably helps the TWolves. I actually kind of like this deal for the Twolves if they are willing to pay Chandler one more year. Suns could just waive both guys. Or use them as part of a multiple team for another player or asset that a team wants expirings for.

[lilfishi22]

When the Gambo suggestion that we're too good to be a bottom 7-8 team, IIRC we were 5.5 games from a playoff spot and 5 games from the #1 pick. We're now 3.5 games from that coveted bottom of the league position and 6.5 games away from a playoff spot. Looking at our schedule, I expect us to continue in this direction. Unless McD decides to make a move for a legit PG.

Did Gambo look at the schedule ahead - I don't think he did. Unless other teams just tank it harder - I think the Suns - just on schedule alone -- will be a bottom 7 team. Maybe they are too good to be bottom 4 - but bottom 7 is certainly , to me, likely - without tanking .

I think he based it on us winning a few of games and our young guys having a good stretch of games.

[NavLDO]

Portland in: Josh Richardson
Justice Winslow
Wayne Ellington
Tyson Chandler
Jared Dudley


Portland Out: CJ
Evan Turner
Jake Layman

Miami in: CJ
Jake Layman


Miami out: Josh Richardson
Tyler Johnson
Wayne Ellington
Justice Winslow
Kelly Olynk
2018 (lotto protected) 1st

Suns in:
Tyler Johnson
Evan Turner
Kelly Olynk
Mia: 2018 (lotto protected) 1st

Suns out: Tyson Chandler
Jared Dudley


Why for Portland? - Portland uses CJ to get rid of Turner’s awful deal but also avoids using a pick to dump Turner and swings back a great 3&D in Josh Richardson having a great season and a nice young piece in Winslow both on solid contracts. Then they bite the salaries of Chandler and Dudley for the rest of this year and next year and will be out of salary hell to be able to resign guys like Napier, Connaughton, and Nurkić.

Potential starting lineup - Dame, Napier, Richardson, Aminu, Nurkic

Why for Miami? - Pat Riley gets his guy in CJ who is a lethal scorer and could possibly be even better if he was able to run the show full time. CJ and Whiteside pick n roll next to Dragic would be nice. They also set themselves up a lot better for next season by getting rid of Tyler Johnson who is owed $19 mil, Josh Richardson $10 mil, and Olynyk $10 mil

Why for Suns? - Suns get compensated a nice 1st round pick for their efforts facilitating while also getting rid of their older vets on bigger contracts (Dudley, Chandler) they take back Turner which is a terrible contract but they get compensated and can afford it and he actually might fit well in Phoenix being able to run an offense next to Booker and Jackson. Phoenix also gets Tyler Johnson who will be making a lot next year but is a good young player for Phoenix to try while they continue a rebuild. Kelly Olynk is a good role player on a decent contract and could give them insurance Incase Alex Len doesn’t return.


Wait...so you are saying we could get Miami's Lotto Protected 2018 1st Rd pick in the Deal? Sold! I'm in!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...apparently, the poster did little to no research before posting....

We get a NICE 1st round pick, not like a bad 1st round pick.

No, you missed my point...apparently everyone did...unless I am missing something,

Look at what the poster offered in his trade...what I highlighted and blew up the font... we already OWN Miami's 2018 1st Rd Pick...in fact...he's making it worse...right now, it's only protected 1-7, he's trying to make it Lotto protected...that's what I was laughing about...

"2018 first round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 1st round pick to Phoenix protected for selections 1-7 in 2018 and unprotected in 2019 [Miami-New Orleans-Phoenix, 2/19/2015]"

[bwgood77]

Portland in: Josh Richardson
Justice Winslow
Wayne Ellington
Tyson Chandler
Jared Dudley


Portland Out: CJ
Evan Turner
Jake Layman

Miami in: CJ
Jake Layman


Miami out: Josh Richardson
Tyler Johnson
Wayne Ellington
Justice Winslow
Kelly Olynk
2018 (lotto protected) 1st

Suns in:
Tyler Johnson
Evan Turner
Kelly Olynk
Mia: 2018 (lotto protected) 1st

Suns out: Tyson Chandler
Jared Dudley


Why for Portland? - Portland uses CJ to get rid of Turner’s awful deal but also avoids using a pick to dump Turner and swings back a great 3&D in Josh Richardson having a great season and a nice young piece in Winslow both on solid contracts. Then they bite the salaries of Chandler and Dudley for the rest of this year and next year and will be out of salary hell to be able to resign guys like Napier, Connaughton, and Nurkić.

Potential starting lineup - Dame, Napier, Richardson, Aminu, Nurkic

Why for Miami? - Pat Riley gets his guy in CJ who is a lethal scorer and could possibly be even better if he was able to run the show full time. CJ and Whiteside pick n roll next to Dragic would be nice. They also set themselves up a lot better for next season by getting rid of Tyler Johnson who is owed $19 mil, Josh Richardson $10 mil, and Olynyk $10 mil

Why for Suns? - Suns get compensated a nice 1st round pick for their efforts facilitating while also getting rid of their older vets on bigger contracts (Dudley, Chandler) they take back Turner which is a terrible contract but they get compensated and can afford it and he actually might fit well in Phoenix being able to run an offense next to Booker and Jackson. Phoenix also gets Tyler Johnson who will be making a lot next year but is a good young player for Phoenix to try while they continue a rebuild. Kelly Olynk is a good role player on a decent contract and could give them insurance Incase Alex Len doesn’t return.


Wait...so you are saying we could get Miami's Lotto Protected 2018 1st Rd pick in the Deal? Sold! I'm in!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...apparently, the poster did little to no research before posting....

We get a NICE 1st round pick, not like a bad 1st round pick.

No, you missed my point...apparently everyone did...unless I am missing something,

Look at what the poster offered in his trade...what I highlighted and blew up the font... we already OWN Miami's 2018 1st Rd Pick...in fact...he's making it worse...right now, it's only protected 1-7, he's trying to make it Lotto protected...that's what I was laughing about...

"2018 first round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 1st round pick to Phoenix protected for selections 1-7 in 2018 and unprotected in 2019 [Miami-New Orleans-Phoenix, 2/19/2015]"

I didn't miss it when I read your post. Clearly it was an oversight. I was going to click on the link to the trade board thread (but I didn't see one) because surely someone pointed that out there...they are fairly aware of team assets over there.

[NavLDO]

Week, do you think JJ was the wrong pick?

If I get the play the hindsight game after a half season then yeah I couldn't put Jackson in the top 5 big board of this draft. That's actually a hard exercise to do basing it both on potential and early results. The top 2 are easy with Tatum and Mitchell, then you have to consider Kuzma even though I think some guys have higher ceilings. Arguments could be made for Smith, Lonzo, OG, Frank and all those guys would be ahead of Jackson for me.

At the time it was an OK pick. They needed some defensive intensity and dude has some fire that's not debatable. As I said I personally liked Isaac more as a pure prospect, I still do but it's not like he's done much so far in his career. Now I get why they didn't take Isaac for fit reasons but hell if he's better than Chriss or Bender then that really shouldn't have mattered. I think it's fair to say they knew by the draft they weren't comfortable giving Bledsoe an extension so really they should have moved him then and targeted a PG. Had they went that route it would have been really interesting to see who the picked. Fox was highest rated by most but I think there is fit concerns if he can't develop a 3pt shot with Warren at the 3 it's hard to have a non 3pt shooter at the PG. Smith has the most upside but is a bit ball dominant. Frank probably would have been viewed as a reach but man is he a nice fit skill wise next to Booker. Jackson's fit with Warren is pretty weird too; it's really hard to play two wings at the same time who aren't good 3pt shootes.

It's really early to judge Jackson and he's played better as of late but his weaknesses scare the hell out of me. If he can't become a better FT shooter I have a hard time understanding how he can be a good offensive player even if he can be an average 3pt shooter. It will negate his driving ability because teams will learn to simply foul him and make him earn this points from the line. He's been underwhelming as a passer and turns it over too much but I think he can improve in this area but probably not to the point where he should be initiating a bunch of offense. Defensively is going to have to be his calling card but even there I have some concerns. I know some of you will rip me for this but I just don't think he's an elite athlete; more just above average by NBA standards and his lack of length hurts his ability to handle bigger guys making him a little less versatile.

But every single rookie that is "knocking it out of the park," so to speak, have also been given ample starting opportunities, whereas JJ has not. He's also had to play with 4 different starting PGs.

I agree that some aspects of his game are worrisome, but there are also many plusses to it, as well, and until those are fully developed I think it will be tough to discern.

Bottom line is, the team is a mess, and until some things get cleaned up, it's going to be tough to expect these guys to get better.

[Kerrsed]

Im still in shock that i saw a Frank post advocating tanking.



Hell hasith frozen over everyone!

And this is for you Frank, you and ONLY you!:

Spoiler:

[RaisingArizona]

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1643840&start=2000#p62216873

The issue I have, however, is continuing to take players at positions we have 'covered'. If JJ is our future at the 3, yet we continue to start Warren, I believe they are on a train headed full-speed toward a mountain-side...it's not gonna be pretty. Something has to give. JJ cannot be the #4 overall pick and be our Bench SF...our '6th Man'; he needs to start and be developed as a starter. Warren is doing a great job as a starter, though he has his warts, of course. But everyday that Warren starts and continues to build up his résumé as a starter, and get better, how are 'you' (McD/Triano) gonna tell him--"Hey, thanks for all you've done as our starting SF...you've been great, but now we're going to demote you to 6th Man because we drafted JJ 4th overall, and he needs to be our starter."

Then, there's the 2 x 20-YO PFs drafted at the same time. Sorry, but Bender needs those reps as a starter as well to be developed properly, playing with the starters. And heck, Chriss isn;t even getting the 30-ish MPG he should be as a starter...why? WE have to play Bender. They're both being developed improperly, thus delaying the process, IMO.

Then add in the fact of our PG situation, which to me, is much more critical than our Center position right now, because our young guys need to develop with a 'Floor General'.

We're in a bad spot right now, so what is the best solution? Go get one of the young PGs out there that are stuck behind other PGs? Trade for an older PG on a team that wants to get a younger one some reps? Do we wait until the draft and get one there?

Thing is, let's say we go to the draft, as is, and let's say we are drafting 7th, and the following scenario plays out:

#1 - Bagley
#2 - Doncic
#3 - Ayton
#4 - Young
#5 - Bamba
#6 - Jaren Jackson
#7 - On the Clock

Who are you going to choose? Sexton is the next best PG and the logical choice. But you notice who's missing and supposed to be gone by now, but isn't, because Team #6 needed a playmaker at PF right now.

Well, we should take Porter, right?? NOOOOOO!!!! But we will, won't we. And your saying, as your reading this, Nav's crazy, you always take the BPA. And I'd say, you are right...

...OR, you shop the pick for the PG in the league that you want, because X team with said PG would LOVE to have Porter.
...OR, you trade some of our other assets at the SF/PF position for a PG.
...OR, you draft him, then 'trade him' down a few spots for a ridiculous payback in picks/players.

but you don't go into next season with Warren, JJ, Porter, Bender, and Chriss all on the same team, and expect they will all develop...again, with no PG.

So, I guess my point is, I really don't care which direction they decide to go, so long as they decide on a direction, instead of what feels like to us fans as directionless meandering.

I expect JJ begins next year coming off the bench. By the beginning of year 3, however, I expect to be the starter, with TJ being the league's best sixth man. I don't think we'll be able to keep JJ off the floor.

I think there's a very good chance we have a breakout season next year. I think we'll add one or two significant (rotation) free agents, including a starting PG. I think we'll also try to get a small upgrade at the C spot - probably just player who combines Tyson's rebounding with some offense. Players like that could be acquired on the cheap, I think, given the plethora of C's in the league at the moment. Add Williams, assume one of Knight or a draft pick gives us an upgrade over Ulis, and assume continued growth from our young players, and we'll have improved at every position - starters and backups alike.

As for your scenario - we might just take Porter. We'd have to really love Sexton to take him over Porter, unless his injury issue is especially prohibitive. I could see us trading down at a very steep premium - probably in the form of a very significant upgrade at the 1 or 5, and probably another future pick as well.

The only breakout we will have next season is a serious case of acne from the five new draft picks and all the existing under 22's on the team.

Proactive sponsorship confirmed.

[Mulhollanddrive]

We are a 15 win better team when Daniels makes 2 threes.

Daniels makes 2+ threes: 15 wins in 34 games
Daniels makes 1- threes: 5 wins in 19 games

82% of our results correlate with his +/- even though he only plays 18 minutes.

It shows the impact of three point shooting and how we need to get a star version of Troy Daniels possibly Trae Young.

[bigfoot]

Im still in shock that i saw a Frank post advocating tanking.



Hell hasith frozen over everyone!

And this is for you Frank, you and ONLY you!:

Spoiler:

Not quite yet it hasn't !!!

[Qwigglez]

Portland in: Josh Richardson
Justice Winslow
Wayne Ellington
Tyson Chandler
Jared Dudley


Portland Out: CJ
Evan Turner
Jake Layman

Miami in: CJ
Jake Layman


Miami out: Josh Richardson
Tyler Johnson
Wayne Ellington
Justice Winslow
Kelly Olynk
2018 (lotto protected) 1st

Suns in:
Tyler Johnson
Evan Turner
Kelly Olynk
Mia: 2018 (lotto protected) 1st

Suns out: Tyson Chandler
Jared Dudley


Why for Portland? - Portland uses CJ to get rid of Turner’s awful deal but also avoids using a pick to dump Turner and swings back a great 3&D in Josh Richardson having a great season and a nice young piece in Winslow both on solid contracts. Then they bite the salaries of Chandler and Dudley for the rest of this year and next year and will be out of salary hell to be able to resign guys like Napier, Connaughton, and Nurkić.

Potential starting lineup - Dame, Napier, Richardson, Aminu, Nurkic

Why for Miami? - Pat Riley gets his guy in CJ who is a lethal scorer and could possibly be even better if he was able to run the show full time. CJ and Whiteside pick n roll next to Dragic would be nice. They also set themselves up a lot better for next season by getting rid of Tyler Johnson who is owed $19 mil, Josh Richardson $10 mil, and Olynyk $10 mil

Why for Suns? - Suns get compensated a nice 1st round pick for their efforts facilitating while also getting rid of their older vets on bigger contracts (Dudley, Chandler) they take back Turner which is a terrible contract but they get compensated and can afford it and he actually might fit well in Phoenix being able to run an offense next to Booker and Jackson. Phoenix also gets Tyler Johnson who will be making a lot next year but is a good young player for Phoenix to try while they continue a rebuild. Kelly Olynk is a good role player on a decent contract and could give them insurance Incase Alex Len doesn’t return.


Wait...so you are saying we could get Miami's Lotto Protected 2018 1st Rd pick in the Deal? Sold! I'm in!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...apparently, the poster did little to no research before posting....

We get a NICE 1st round pick, not like a bad 1st round pick.

No, you missed my point...apparently everyone did...unless I am missing something,

Look at what the poster offered in his trade...what I highlighted and blew up the font... we already OWN Miami's 2018 1st Rd Pick...in fact...he's making it worse...right now, it's only protected 1-7, he's trying to make it Lotto protected...that's what I was laughing about...

"2018 first round draft pick from Miami
Miami's 1st round pick to Phoenix protected for selections 1-7 in 2018 and unprotected in 2019 [Miami-New Orleans-Phoenix, 2/19/2015]"

I didn't miss it. I just find it funny whenever you go to the trade board or any board for that matter and someone puts in... "they got a NICE pick, or they get a NICE player who plays behind such and such." Instead of being realistic, since Miami is currently on fire and is in 4th place in the Eastern Conference and putting something else such as... "Suns get a late 1st, early 20's pick, not very good, but maybe you'll get something good, oh it's also lotto protected for no reason."
Possibly one of the worst ways to sell a trade or just the most laziest.

[hollywood6964]

viewtopic.php?p=62190395#p62190395

Andrew Wiggins, worst max player ever?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1656515#p61896620



secure image upload

Funny...from what I can see, I'm not seeing a whole lot of 'goodness' from Wiggins in his 1st 2 seasons...or after that, as the recent thread on the GB shows.

If we force-fed Chriss 30+ minutes per night, like teams have done with Wiggins; attempting to WILL him to be good, well, we could get the same results. Maybe we should Max him out as well; oh wait, his name is not the great, Andrew Wiggins.

You need to get it out of your head that Wiggins is this wonderful player. Yeah, I stretched that, calling Chriss our 'Wiggins', but my meaning wasn't necessarily talent level, but where he fits on the team when one starts saying "oh x player is their #3" or "their #4"...in this example, Chriss, or Wiggins, is the #4 on the team. That was my meaning. Look at their Starting Lineup

Teague / Butler / Wiggins / Gibson / Towns and Dieng being the backup C that's good enough to start, but can't

Now look at ours in that scenario I painted...

All-Star / Booker / JJ / Chriss / McCoy (Courtesy of Heat Pick) and Len being the backup C that's good enough to start, but can't

So, the scenario I'm painting there is is Wiggins is the #4 (and actually, likely #5--I'd honestly rather have Gibson)...just like Chriss would be the #4. Is their #4 better than ours? Yep. But don't be deluded into thinking that Wiggins is some awesome player, because he just isn't.

So while I understand what you are saying, my intention wasn't really to say that Chriss is as good of a player, even if, when really looking closely, they are not as far apart as it may seem.

I didn't say he was awesome, or the great, or whatever. Why this board insists on leading arguments is beyond me, it's way too see through n rudimentary.

Anyway, I said he's been good, and he's has. 23ppg last year, less this year, but of course with a fairly good team with a lot of options.

Now the real point was about Chriss compared to wiggins. Not the same position or even type of player. Also wiggins is more of a #3 option, maybe 3/4, on a pretty good team, while Chriss struggles to get minutes from game to game on a pretty bad team. Meanwhile Wiggins was a strong 20 plus point per game scorer on a bad team. And you think Chriss could do the same with the same push? Please stop. Again. This is a poor argument.

No, he's not. He's a number 4 on a pretty good team. Chriss 'could' be a #4 on a pretty good team. That's my point. Why are you trying to make it more than what my point was; has nothing to do with position, or type of player. It's about option on a playoff team. Wiggins is in his 4th year, and is the 4th best player on a playoff team. In two seasons from now, Chriss could be the 4th best player on a playoff team. That is ALL I was saying.

But hey, if this os more about you needing to be right, then go ahead and be right. You are right, they do play different positions, and you are also right, they are different kind of players, and you are right again, Wiggins is a 3rd or 4th option on a pretty good team, while Chriss struggles to get minutes from game to game on a pretty bad team.

They also are different heights, different weights, are on different teams, have different coaches, have different development schedules, were drafted at different overall picks in the draft, and get paid different amounts.

But, getting back to what my meaning was, is that Chriss could be our 4th best player on our playoff team in a year or two, as well, following that scenario I had laid out, which is the ONLY thing I was trying to say.

And you have the nerve to talk about this board 'leading arguments is beyond you', why don't you try looking in the mirror, since you are the one that started this whole debate, when you didn't even understand my meaning in the 1st place...but since you decided to take it where you did, I figured I would go ahead and show you that Wiggins isn't really that 'good'. BK shot 20 PPG too...

You are in error, all of it. But that's ok, I'm done with it, moving on.

[bwgood77]

We are a 15 win better team when Daniels makes 2 threes.

Daniels makes 2+ threes: 15 wins in 34 games
Daniels makes 1- threes: 5 wins in 19 games

82% of our results correlate with his +/- even though he only plays 18 minutes.

It shows the impact of three point shooting and how we need to get a star version of Troy Daniels possibly Trae Young.

Level of competition probably plays a large factor, though of course when our players hit their threes, the odds of us winning go up.

[TeamTragic]

Spoiler:

I prefer us to to do absolutely nothing but release Monroe....then plummet down the standings and auger in. This squad is beyond repair and devoid of talent. We play like a group who just picked sides at the Y.

Our vets have no value as nobody will absorb their remaining 10Mil year for what little they can provide on the court. Our kids haven't shown anything to warrant a good player in return..... some of them playing their way to europe/china. (You hear me Ulis??) The big 3 of Jackson, Chris, Bender are good values but inconsistent contributors. Production for dollar says keep them. Plus, we wont get anything back in a deal. we have nothing but picks to offer... unless we are willing to part with Warren... and at this point, if we were able to get some legit PG talent back, I might do it. But I'd rather see where the lotto shakes out.

With the pathetic play this team has been showing us, Im banking on a real good chance to get one of Young or Doncic.Atleast a top 5. Either way, McD has some real work to do this off season... A coach, a legit PG, a C all have to be found as this is the last year we get rewarded for being one of the worst teams in the league. His roster hodge-podging has shown little cohesion from day one. And please, no lectures on how young these guys are. Bad is bad. If he can't put a team together with what he has had then its time to go. Christ he has traded away a GD starting team and has little to nothing to show for it. (Dragic/Bled/Mobro1/Mobro2/TheGortat for ????)

This year is easy. Just look away from the train wreck and wait for the draft. We've done it before.... but this has to stop and this team has to compete next yr/soon else McD will be McDumped.

I'd still like to see what these guys could do in a traditional development scenario. Someone, anyone (because I'm not going to do the research to find the answer), tell me when the last time...or heck, if ever, a GM spent two top 10 picks on two under 20, highly-developmental players who played the same position, then tell me who they were, and how they both turned out to be great players...because surely McD must have had some type of blueprint to go off of when he decided to go that direction.

Seriously, all three of those guys are doomed...Chriss, Bender, and JJ. They're all going to fail. NOT because they aren't good enough, but because they are in an impossible situation. You've finally broken me down, Frank (well, not you...McD has done it with his dumb approach to team building), but I'm on the dump McD bandwagon the day after the Trade Deadline is over, if he has not traded one of the 2 PFs, and one of Warren or JJ.

Stupid waste of a 4th overall pick...TWO YEARS IN A ROW!!! Amazing, actually. I'm ok with 'sucking' the rest of the season, but then play JJ, and play Chriss or Bender...again (beating that dead horse)...Pick one! Really is a waste of draft picks if they don't start developing these kids, and letting Warren believe he's our starter of the future? That's a Dragic scenario waiting to happen again once he's 'sat' in favor of JJ.

But if we traded Warren + oh, I'll say Chriss today, for X PG, then start:

X PG / Booker / JJ / Bender / Chandler?? Len??

Then I'm ok with sucking til the cows come home...or the end of the season...whichever is first.

Draft a Center, another young PG...or two...a couple of developmental guys to be bench support, and let's go...but right now, we are accomplishing nothing. No one is getting developed properly, and we are still sucking...yay!

OK so let's summarize:
- Chriss and Bender are doomed because they play the same position
- JJ is doomed and waste of a pick because he and Warren play the same position
- lets trade Warren and one of PFs for PG
- THEN LETS DRAFT ANOTHER YOUNG PG OR TWO BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A WASTE OF PICK AND ALL 3 WILL DEVELOP WELL


All three of the "doomed" players you mentioned play 20+ minutes a game. Really they are in impossible situation. If they would play 40 minutes a game they would be all-stars already.

You want to trade one of Bender or Chriss. So how would you know which one will be better player? I have no idea. It is too early to tell. What if the one traded will become star and the one Suns keep will be bust? Maybe one will be star and the other will be solid backup? And if both will develop into starter level players? THEN we could trade one. Not the worst problem.

You want to trade Warren but how can we be sure that Jackson will be better player than Warren? Of course when you draft someone with 4th pick you hope he will be really good but you can't be sure. What if Suns will trade good player on great contract and JJ will never become a decent starter? Hopefully, JJ will be as good as we expect him to be and THEN Warren will become 6th man. And if he won't be happy with coming of the bench? THEN Suns can think about trading him.

Doing any moves right now is dumb without knowing
1) who will the Suns get in the draft
2) how will our youth develop

Do you know the definition of insanity?

[Qwigglez]

Man you know things have got weird around here when Frank is leading the tank and draft charge

Qwigs - You're not wrong about how it's looking for the past two drafts. But I would say if that's the suns opinion after these next 40 games then I would prefer to change the person making those decision instead of changing the method of talent acquisition. Especially with the top of this draft that is both highly regarded and is loaded with PG's and C's two immediate needs for the Suns. As far as making the change I realize McD got an extension but if they don't feel he's done a good enough job then Sarver needs to bite the bullet and eat that money and get someone in here who can evaluate talent. The timing works this summer too since they will be hiring a new coach so it could be time for a whole organizational change at the top.

Now with all that said they should always be opportunistic and if the right player was available in a trade you explore the option. And I do think they should have more of a win now focus this summer than ever before but to me that's more draft one guy and then use the cap space to grab a vet strategy then to empty out the asset bin for someone.

True enough. Though I do recall majority of the board members here at the time of the draft wanted either Bender or Chriss, we got them both. This past draft majority wanted Jackson and we got him too. A lot of people also wanted us to tank properly and we traded Bledsoe, so they got that going for them too. It appears the direction the team is headed is exactly what majority of the board wanted anyhow.

IMO, it's going to take more than just this next draft to help us out. We need to grow organically at an exponential rate. The road we are going down, we aren't making the playoffs next year or even the year after.

You're right that the majority of the board liked those picks. Although I would say this year Jackson was far from the consensus I was personally team Isaac and Fox had his supporters too. But ultimately I don't judge it by who us posters wanted. We don't work in basketball and aren't paid to make the right choice. It's not a GMs job to pick the guy everyone wants it's his job to get as many picks right as possible.

Now it's still very early in the evaluation of the last two drafts and things could look better even by the end of this year. And if they do then McD might deserve one more shot. Frankly it's all the other aspects of the job (trades, FA, player relations) that contribute to my belief he might not be the right guy for this job. I was high on the hire when they got him but the results are the results at this point.

I know we aren't paid to make the right choices I was simply stating this is the bed everyone wanted, now sleep in this pile of filth and be happy is all.