Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[Two Time]

Maybe even keep IT

The Suns could have at least considered that I went to the his bobblehead night, now I have an IT3 Bobblehead on my desk at work, I feel quite silly about this

PS at this game a fan sitting a few rows ahead of me was wearing a Hakiim Warrick jersey. I hated that fan.......

[saintEscaton]

While we may see that to be correct. I'm not exactly thrilled with that thought, as Dragic was a superior player to Bledsoe. So it should have been Bledsoe that trying to fit next to Dragic.
Alas Dragic is gone no matter my opinion on it, and I am overall pleased with how the Suns have handled the situations they have been put in, and put themselves in, over the last several months.

I would have rather us have stayed put after dealing Tragic. Maybe even keep IT, but I get that we wanted to clean house and move on from the failed Three Headed Hydra experiment but this "dual playmaker" system is not all that different. Acquiring BKnight seemed to be more of a last resort knee-jerk move to steady the ship and project the illusion that all is well. Bucks refused to extend him to a long term contract and probably wouldn't have even matched the qualifying offer sheet and we could have bidded for him below the max as an RFA without much competition (maybe the Knicks) since good not great positionless guards are not highly valued. The only benefit of getting him via trade was we owned his Bird's Rights which meant that he only accounted for a $9 million cap hold and can be resigned after exceeding the salary cap

That "only" benefit you speak of is named Tyson Chandler.

Nope. Chandler was signed outright and hence why we didn't facilitate a Sign and Trade with Dallas to give up assets and take matching incoming salaries. By operating under the cap at the start of the summer we renounced any trade exceptions but after signing Mirza and Weems we are capped out for now. We could deal McNeal's non-guaranteed contract to a team needing to clear cap or avoid luxury tax penalties though

[thamadkant]

Weems, Teletovic will get career high 3pt made and attempt me thinks lol.

The way the suns are structured it's going to be the only way to stay competitive out west since inside scoring will be limited.IMO.

[rottenbanana36]

McNeal was waived on the 17th.

[LukasBMW]

This season will either be a complete surprise and we will shock the NBA and make the playoffs

OR

This season will be a disaster and we will fight the Lakers for the last spot in the division.

[bigfoot]

This season will either be a complete surprise and we will shock the NBA and make the playoffs

OR

This season will be a disaster and we will fight the Lakers for the last spot in the division.

Last season we lost 18 games by five points or less and nearly won half our games. I would say the addition of Chandler is going to push us over .500 ... the real question is will we hit 50 wins.

[letsgosuns]

The trade I suggest is Markieff and Tucker for Tristan Thompson. The key here though is not giving Thompson that four year max offer he is seeking. I would sign him for the 1+1 max deal where he is signed for one year and then has a player option. It is a very attractive contract for both parties. One, the Suns are not on the hook long term and two, Thompson has the ability to get a much greater pay day one or two years from now if he elevates himself to a top power forward in the league.

Basketball wise it is simple. The Suns are not a pure ball movement team. The majority of their points come from isolations and cuts. They are nothing like Nash's Suns where Nash orchestrated with a bunch of great shooters and finishers around him. The Suns would instead be built around defense instead of offense. A Chandler and Thompson frontcourt could be so dominant defensively and on the boards it would be hard to find a better defensive frontcourt. Bledsoe, Knight, and Warren could start and be the main scorers while Chandler and Thompson score from alley-oops, offensive rebounds, and occasional post-ups. Off the bench you have Goodwin and Booker at the guards and Weems to take the place of Tucker. Teletovich backs up as the stretch four and Len is the backup center and provides his defensive presence and scoring presence in the middle.

I think you make some really great points about the defensive side of things. But, I think you're underestimating the negative effects a Thompson-Chandler combination at the 4-5 would have on the offensive side of the ball. Perimeter shooting, and more specifically, three point shooting, ensures proper spacing. Proper spacing, in turn, opens up driving lanes because it prevents off-ball defenders from straying too far from the player they are guarding. For the current Suns team, this matters. A lot. Players like Bledsoe and Knight are both a legitimate threat from deep and in driving to the lane. Goodwin and Warren are currently not legitimate three point threats. That means defenders can sag off of them and pack the paint, which would make those shots harder. It allows defenses to double team much easier. How would Warren score if you took away the driving lanes to the basket?

The closest current analog is probably the Memphis Grizzlies. Memphis has a very strong front court in Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph. Neither player has much range, although, to their credit, either can operate effectively on the elbow and both players have developed post games. As a result, Memphis scored the highest percentage of points in the paint than any other league. Memphis also scored the second fewest amount of points off of threes in the league last season (after only Minnesota). Memphis is able to make it work solely because Gasol and Randolph have enough of a range to make defenses pay for packing the paint. But, neither Chandler nor Thompson fits that bill. Consider this. Last season, Chandler shot 71% from less than 5 feet on 379 attempts. Chandler only attempted 61 shots from 5 feet beyond the basket. From 15 feet out, he shot 41.9%. Thompson's numbers are similar. He shot 61.2% within 5 feet of the basket. His field goal percentage drops into the 30s once he steps outside of 5 feet of the rim. You can't have two players who need to score within 5 feet of the rim to be effective. In the modern NBA it just doesn't work like that. Or, look at Cleveland when they played Thompson and Mozgov together. The offense was stagnant. Cleveland's most effective lineups featured LBJ as a power forward with either Thompson or Mozgov manning the middle, but not both.

I agree with you said. It is an excellent post. That was my main concern as well on the offensive end. Just the spacing and potential scoring from the 4-5 positions. I have no counter argument because I think you nailed it.

[saintEscaton]

This season will either be a complete surprise and we will shock the NBA and make the playoffs

OR

This season will be a disaster and we will fight the Lakers for the last spot in the division.

Last season we lost 18 games by five points or less and nearly won half our games. I would say the addition of Chandler is going to push us over .500 ... the real question is will we hit 50 wins.

We will be somewhere between the extremes and continue to be a meddling team imo. All the moves we made guarantee that we remain in the hunt for the 8th seed and don't regress too much from last season . Either we finish out strong when its too late only to fall out of contention or we crash and burn after a promising start. We'll be hardpressed to crack 40 wins and thats peaking with this squad. This new backcourt pairing would have to gell quick and fire on all cylinders from the get go for us to have a chance

[bwgood77]

No to Tristan...
He's a good fit with the cavs and wont be for the Suns. It would allow teams to just play us on the perimeter and force the guards to drive no where in the paint. Sure Defense would be fine but spacing would be ****.

Correct. Cleveland is really only effective with him when he plays the 5 and LeBron plays the four, or Love at the 4 and LeBron at the 3. It's not often they play Mozgov and Thompson together, at least not effectively.

[jcsunsfan]

This season will either be a complete surprise and we will shock the NBA and make the playoffs

OR

This season will be a disaster and we will fight the Lakers for the last spot in the division.

Last season we lost 18 games by five points or less and nearly won half our games. I would say the addition of Chandler is going to push us over .500 ... the real question is will we hit 50 wins.

We will be somewhere between the extremes and continue to be a meddling team imo. All the moves we made guarantee that we remain in the hunt for the 8th seed and don't regress too much from last season . Either we finish out strong when its too late only to fall out of contention or we crash and burn after a promising start. We'll be hardpressed to crack 40 wins and thats peaking with this squad. This new backcourt pairing would have to gell quick and fire on all cylinders from the get go for us to have a chance

"middling" --in the middle area, having the quality of being mediocre.
"meddling" --injecting yourself in someone else's business.

You meant the first. Right now, I am doing the second.

[saintEscaton]

Last season we lost 18 games by five points or less and nearly won half our games. I would say the addition of Chandler is going to push us over .500 ... the real question is will we hit 50 wins.

We will be somewhere between the extremes and continue to be a meddling team imo. All the moves we made guarantee that we remain in the hunt for the 8th seed and don't regress too much from last season . Either we finish out strong when its too late only to fall out of contention or we crash and burn after a promising start. We'll be hardpressed to crack 40 wins and thats peaking with this squad. This new backcourt pairing would have to gell quick and fire on all cylinders from the get go for us to have a chance

"middling" --in the middle area, having the quality of being mediocre.
"meddling" --injecting yourself in someone else's business.

You meant the first. Right now, I am doing the second.

I meant both. As in being mediocre while having no business pretending to be contenders when we are well aware that we can't make a playoff run even if the cards fall just right in our favor and sneak in. Maybe we can spoil someone's seeding

[thamadkant]

There are ways for 2 non-offensively gifted Big men can play on the court at the same time is if the team has enough scorers at the other spots.

Teams with..
Kobe, Durant comes to mind.... Harden also. Curry when he is in the zone.

Having Jordan and Pippen on the team can allow that team to have 2 non-scoring big men.... because their defense and rebounding will help balance out the high-volume scoring that the other 2 can bring.


With Cleveland.... Lebron is a GREAT player, can score a lot of points, but he does it because he is very hard to stop in his ability to drive and finish at the rim. But he isnt the scorer Kobe, Harden or Durant is. Who ALL can score 30+ points from the mid range and 3pt line or anywhere apart from the rim.

Cavs can definitely HAVE Mozgov and Thompson on the court at the same time if they are going against a team with big men who scores a lot inside... to say that Mozgov and Thompson CAN never play together is not correct.
Against a small ball lineup with high scoring power... obviously you put in 4 players on the court who are versatile scorers... in order to match them up points for points..... because a small ball lineup's PF can be assumed to be enough to stop a non-scoring PF... so instead you put in a smaller but better scoring PF on that spot.... thats just logic.

[saintEscaton]

There are ways for 2 non-offensively gifted Big men can play on the court at the same time is if the team has enough scorers at the other spots.

Teams with..
Kobe, Durant comes to mind.... Harden also. Curry when he is in the zone.

Having Jordan and Pippen on the team can allow that team to have 2 non-scoring big men.... because their defense and rebounding will help balance out the high-volume scoring that the other 2 can bring.


With Cleveland.... Lebron is a GREAT player, can score a lot of points, but he does it because he is very hard to stop in his ability to drive and finish at the rim. But he isnt the scorer Kobe, Harden or Durant is. Who ALL can score 30+ points from the mid range and 3pt line or anywhere apart from the rim.

Cavs can definitely HAVE Mozgov and Thompson on the court at the same time if they are going against a team with big men who scores a lot inside... to say that Mozgov and Thompson CAN never play together is not correct.
Against a small ball lineup with high scoring power... obviously you put in 4 players on the court who are versatile scorers... in order to match them up points for points..... because a small ball lineup's PF can be assumed to be enough to stop a non-scoring PF... so instead you put in a smaller but better scoring PF on that spot.... thats just logic.

Exactly. Hence why we can't have Len play PF and be on the floor at the same time as Chandler to give us the defensive advantage of a Twin Towers frontcourt. We don't have the firepower to compensate offensively and the burden will be on the guards to do most of the scoring which has yet to be seen. Kieff will need to average near 20 PPG on expanded volume and maintain his efficiency since we don't have a number one go to scorer because he's not gunna get much help from Tucker either and Warren will still probably be utilized as a instaoffense sixth man sparkplug to lead the second unit off the bench. But I can see Warren getting minutes at the 4 too

[plonden]

With Cleveland.... Lebron is a GREAT player, can score a lot of points, but he does it because he is very hard to stop in his ability to drive and finish at the rim. But he isnt the scorer Kobe, Harden or Durant is. Who ALL can score 30+ points from the mid range and 3pt line or anywhere apart from the rim.

Lebron is in the same class of scorers as Kobe, Harden, and Durant. I'd concede that earlier in his career Lebron's mid-range and long-range game did not belong in the same class as these other players. But Lebron has long since rounded out his game such that he's a legitimate scoring threat from anywhere on the floor. As a scorer, Harden scores primarily from three, at the rim, and from the free throw line. I see that you are attempting to draw some sort of distinction between Lebron and Kobe, Harden, and Durant, but I'm not quite sure exactly what the distinction is. If the distinction is about teams being worried about the threat of driving to the lane Harden seems to fit that bill just as well, if not more so.

Cavs can definitely HAVE Mozgov and Thompson on the court at the same time if they are going against a team with big men who scores a lot inside... to say that Mozgov and Thompson CAN never play together is not correct.
Against a small ball lineup with high scoring power... obviously you put in 4 players on the court who are versatile scorers... in order to match them up points for points..... because a small ball lineup's PF can be assumed to be enough to stop a non-scoring PF... so instead you put in a smaller but better scoring PF on that spot.... thats just logic.

Here, you are talking about defensive lineups, i.e., who they are matching up against. I don't think anyone disagrees with that prospect. Of course Cleveland could play those guys to matchup against Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol. But the issue is on the offensive side of the floor. Sure, it can work for short bursts here and there. But how can you play Mozgov and Thompson together (or Chandler and Thompson together) on the offensive side and ensure proper spacing, keep driving lanes open, and prevent double teams? That's the real issue.

[thamadkant]

With Cleveland.... Lebron is a GREAT player, can score a lot of points, but he does it because he is very hard to stop in his ability to drive and finish at the rim. But he isnt the scorer Kobe, Harden or Durant is. Who ALL can score 30+ points from the mid range and 3pt line or anywhere apart from the rim.

Lebron is in the same class of scorers as Kobe, Harden, and Durant. I'd concede that earlier in his career Lebron's mid-range and long-range game did not belong in the same class as these other players. But Lebron has long since rounded out his game such that he's a legitimate scoring threat from anywhere on the floor. As a scorer, Harden scores primarily from three, at the rim, and from the free throw line. I see that you are attempting to draw some sort of distinction between Lebron and Kobe, Harden, and Durant, but I'm not quite sure exactly what the distinction is. If the distinction is about teams being worried about the threat of driving to the lane Harden seems to fit that bill just as well, if not more so.

Cavs can definitely HAVE Mozgov and Thompson on the court at the same time if they are going against a team with big men who scores a lot inside... to say that Mozgov and Thompson CAN never play together is not correct.
Against a small ball lineup with high scoring power... obviously you put in 4 players on the court who are versatile scorers... in order to match them up points for points..... because a small ball lineup's PF can be assumed to be enough to stop a non-scoring PF... so instead you put in a smaller but better scoring PF on that spot.... thats just logic.

Here, you are talking about defensive lineups, i.e., who they are matching up against. I don't think anyone disagrees with that prospect. Of course Cleveland could play those guys to matchup against Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol. But the issue is on the offensive side of the floor. Sure, it can work for short bursts here and there. But how can you play Mozgov and Thompson together (or Chandler and Thompson together) on the offensive side and ensure proper spacing, keep driving lanes open, and prevent double teams? That's the real issue.

You try to debate my point then made an example why my point stands correct.
Going up against some teams with decent big men, Thompson and Mozgov helps.

Wizards: Nene/Gortat
Hawks: Milsap/Horford (although Milsap can nail the 3, Thompson can bother him)
Grizzlies: Gasol/Randolph
Clippers: Griffin/Jordan (you dont put Lebron on Griffin and Love will need to be scoring to offset his lack of D)
Spurs: Duncan/Aldridge
Rockets: Jones/Howard

Are just some examples of teams that would kill you in rebounding and inside scoring.

My point is... You go SMALL BALL if that is your strength and advantage.... thats fine.
But you can EASILY have 2 big men who arent scorers, but terrific rebounders/defenders.... atleast this way you command the paint and force teams to take low-percentage shots. Now, this is assuming offensively you can make up for the lack of offense from the front court.

Lebron, Irving, JR Smith back court with Mozgov/Thompson front court is perfectly sufficient against 90% of the teams in the NBA.

Warriors are NOT the rule, but are the exception... that they have a 6'8 SF/PF who can bang hard for rebounds, nail open 3s, guard wingmen well and guard big men sufficiently well.. hence why he is 80 million dollars worth to Warriors.

Warriors strategy of going 5 players who can score anywhere on the half court is a UNIQUE case for them.




Hence, why I was/is an advocate on getting a player like Gallinari still.
Suns can have 4 players who can score in and out whilst having Chandler or Len at the middle for rebounds and blocks.


Im not a supporter of having Thompson on the Suns and play PF next to Chandler.... because the back court will need to be SUPER in regards to scoring prowess and offensive creativity. And Bledsoe, Knight and whomever is no way near enough.

[bwgood77]

There are ways for 2 non-offensively gifted Big men can play on the court at the same time is if the team has enough scorers at the other spots.

Teams with..
Kobe, Durant comes to mind.... Harden also. Curry when he is in the zone.

Having Jordan and Pippen on the team can allow that team to have 2 non-scoring big men.... because their defense and rebounding will help balance out the high-volume scoring that the other 2 can bring.


With Cleveland.... Lebron is a GREAT player, can score a lot of points, but he does it because he is very hard to stop in his ability to drive and finish at the rim. But he isnt the scorer Kobe, Harden or Durant is. Who ALL can score 30+ points from the mid range and 3pt line or anywhere apart from the rim.

Cavs can definitely HAVE Mozgov and Thompson on the court at the same time if they are going against a team with big men who scores a lot inside... to say that Mozgov and Thompson CAN never play together is not correct.
Against a small ball lineup with high scoring power... obviously you put in 4 players on the court who are versatile scorers... in order to match them up points for points..... because a small ball lineup's PF can be assumed to be enough to stop a non-scoring PF... so instead you put in a smaller but better scoring PF on that spot.... thats just logic.

Exactly. Hence why we can't have Len play PF and be on the floor at the same time as Chandler to give us the defensive advantage of a Twin Towers frontcourt. We don't have the firepower to compensate offensively and the burden will be on the guards to do most of the scoring which has yet to be seen. Kieff will need to average near 20 PPG on expanded volume and maintain his efficiency since we don't have a number one go to scorer because he's not gunna get much help from Tucker either and Warren will still probably be utilized as a instaoffense sixth man sparkplug to lead the second unit off the bench. But I can see Warren getting minutes at the 4 too

I don't see Len and Chandler playing much together, but if he really can shoot from deep and can be respected to pull a defender out there, than our guards could run pick n rolls with Tyson all day long. Len would have a tough time chasing smaller 4s on D, but he is pretty quick and could guard most more traditional fours, and even guys like Blake Griffin.

[plonden]

But you can EASILY have 2 big men who arent scorers, but terrific rebounders/defenders.... atleast this way you command the paint and force teams to take low-percentage shots. Now, this is assuming offensively you can make up for the lack of offense from the front court.

Again, I don't disagree with the fact that having two big men who rebound and play great defense is desirable on the defensive end. I've been focusing exclusively on the offensive end of things. The pairing of Thompson and Chandler (similar to the pairing of Thompson and Mozgov) would equate to two players who experience radically diminishing returns outside of five feet from the basket. That is untenable.

Wizards: Nene/Gortat
Hawks: Milsap/Horford (although Milsap can nail the 3, Thompson can bother him)
Grizzlies: Gasol/Randolph
Clippers: Griffin/Jordan (you dont put Lebron on Griffin and Love will need to be scoring to offset his lack of D)
Spurs: Duncan/Aldridge
Rockets: Jones/Howard

The examples you cite don't really support your argument. In each of these pairs, there is at least one player who has a mid-range game that has to be respected. Millsap (35%), Aldridge (35%), Jones (35%) and Griffin (40%, although small sample size alert; he only shot 25 all season) are all legitimate three point threats. Like I said earlier, both Gasol and Randolph are legitimate threats from the elbow. Randolph even shot 35% from three last season (again, small sample size alert; 7/20 from downtown). All of these examples really show how important it is to have at least one big who can shoot from mid-range, and preferably one big who can reliably hit the three ball.

[AtheJ415]

I so much disagree with the Tristan Thompson desire here. Dude is elite at 1 thing--rebounding. He's a good but not elite defender imo. On offense, he's nonexistent. He doesn't even know what to do with the ball much of the time after grabbing a board. He's a worse version of Deandre Jordan. I like his age, but I don't see him ever becoming even a jump shooter offensively. He's almost a PJ Tucker version of the 4.

Not only that, he has the moronic agent from hell, who is once again playing his "max or no negotiation" strategy, except this time it is for a guy who is very much a role player. Even with a rising cap, you can fit 3 max guys under the cap realistically. You can't tell me a team of 3 Tristan Thompson level players can win a title. That doesn't even make the playoffs in the west.

Thanks to GM Lebron, Cleveland will be his highest offer. There's no way around that. Because no GM is going to be willing to pay that much except under Lebron's decision/pressure. Maybe Vlade. Vlade has shown to be pretty awful imo in a short time. All of that said, let's just move on from the Thompson discussion, because since we actually have a smart GM there's no way we're going to pay him what Lebron will force Cleveland to.

[AtheJ415]

Also, if Len is hitting his jumpers, you can have success playing him with Chandler. We have 2 playmakers at the guard spots to carry the offense and get those guys good shots. We'd be elite at defending the rim and our guards would have the ability to pressure on the perimeter on both halves of the court, which is huge. The weakness could be in the pick and roll, but the easy solution is to go under the screens and give up the deep-to-midrange 2. That is what you want the other team to be taking anyways, and against most teams you'd be okay playing that way. It's against the teams with elite mid range shooters where that would become the biggest problem. Also, you'd have to make sure Len and Chandler adjust to avoid foul trouble since that is what the smaller players would be looking for in those situations.

[LukasBMW]

This season will either be a complete surprise and we will shock the NBA and make the playoffs

OR

This season will be a disaster and we will fight the Lakers for the last spot in the division.

Last season we lost 18 games by five points or less and nearly won half our games. I would say the addition of Chandler is going to push us over .500 ... the real question is will we hit 50 wins.

A lot has to go right for us to get 50 wins. Hell, I'd argue a lot has to go right for us to finish at .500

To get .500
-Bledsoe needs to be slightly better then last year
-Knight needs to be the player he was with the bucks
-PJ needs to avoid the booze
-Keef needs to match his performance from last year
-Chandler needs to stay healthy.

To get to 50 wins
-Bledsoe needs to improve from last year (less turnover and a 3 point shot)
-Knight needs to put up allstar numbers
-PJ needs to have a good season
-Keef needs to play at the level he did last year AND keep his cool
-Chandler needs to stay healthy and average a double double
-Len needs to become the best backup center in the NBA
-TJ needs to become a solid bench threat
-We need at least one other consistent performer off the bench.

Usually I'm an optimistic one, but I just don't know anymore.