The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason

Mulhollanddrive · Post #641 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 5:54 am

I think we have a hierachy of strategies that get mix and matched depending on situation but ultimately we have 3 different plans.

- Plan A, acquire a Transformational Superstar, everything on the table - LeBron 2014
- Plan B, acquire an All-Star, without compromising youth - Aldridge 2015
- Plan C, rebuild through young talent / draft to build a young core - Bledsoe / Len 2013

There doesn't appear to be anyone gettable for Plan A, but I'm sure we'll try. I see Plan B as the most realistic starting point, hoping the likes of Butler, Love, Griffin are gettable and we use 3 years worth of asset building to land one. If not using our picks for Plan C, to keeping building youth alongside Len, Warren, Booker.

That seems to be consistant with how the FO has worked since they got in.

RaisingArizona · Post #642 » by **RaisingArizona** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 1:49 pm

Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Nobody is untradeable with the salary cap rising.

Frank Lee · Post #643 » by **Frank Lee** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 3:32 pm

Just because there is money to spend doesnt mean it will be spent...

Keep the subtle denial going about Knight, but realize his one dimensionable skillset can be obtained much cheaper and for less time.

Go ahead and keep the hope alive, i guess if anything, there might be another GM out there who has a mulligan to use.

King4Day · Post #644 » by **King4Day** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 3:54 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Just because there is money to spend doesnt mean it will be spent...

Keep the subtle denial going about Knight, but realize his one dimensionable skillset can be obtained much cheaper and for less time.

Go ahead and keep the hope alive, i guess if anything, there might be another GM out there who has a mulligan to use.

You never know with teams in need of scoring, like Philly.
I agree it'll be difficult to move him but it's not impossible.

AtheJ415 · Post #645 » by **AtheJ415** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:11 pm

Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Just like Kieff huh?

AtheJ415 · Post #646 » by **AtheJ415** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:20 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Just because there is money to spend doesnt mean it will be spent...

Keep the subtle denial going about Knight, but realize his one dimensionable skillset can be obtained much cheaper and for less time.

Go ahead and keep the hope alive, i guess if anything, there might be another GM out there who has a mulligan to use.

Actually, it does. Most max deals, and by proxy role players since many now plan their futures based on the timing and ability to offer or absorb max deals, are decided relative to a percentage of the salary cap. Even if most intended to be disciplined and not offer big deals, all it takes is one team to give somebody a deal that is based on salary cap % instead of looking at it as a total dollar amount, and all the teams that are sticking to overall dollars lose that player. In every scenario it just takes one, which is why people who were shocked a few years ago when Hayward and Parsons got maxes shouldn't have been shocked. That amount then becomes the basis for other players to justify higher salaries. That is how the owners always get in trouble and lockouts are threatened. There's always been this idea that owners and GMs will control spending and be these super disciplined investors, but that doesn't happen. Teams are judged on wins and losses and these guys want to win. They will not sit back and lose out on players they want even when they can fit them in the cap just because of some principle of what the player ought to be worth. Too many teams need to win now.

AtheJ415 · Post #647 » by **AtheJ415** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:34 pm

I'll chime in on Butler. I love the guy. 2 way star. Maybe not a #1 guy, but an elite 2 who we could play at the 3 alongside Booker. I actually think Bledsoe, Booker, and Butler would be an awesome 1-3 because that's 2 very good 2 way players. 2 way guys are so much more valuable, particularly when the leaders buy in defensively. Butler and Bledsoe do that, and Booker is mature enough to get there, it's just that he doesn't quite know what he's doing defensively, which is common for 19 year olds. But the problem is we'd still need #1, or I suppose another #2 could get us near contention. It would depend on what was given up for Butler. I could see Boston not being in love with Butler, which means we're really bidding against ourselves, maybe the Magic (if they want Butler over Oladipo), and probably the 76ers (assuming Chicago is trying to rebuild and not looking for vets). Is it a few picks and Knight? Is it more than that? I don't think we should trade Len, Warren, or Booker because they have more value to us than Chicago. Picks are equally valuable to Chicago, and so ought to be the focus.

I would then look at it separately and see what is left cap-wise and asset-wise, who we could get in FA, and if we could make a great offer for a big (Love or Cousins, preferably Cousins). Would Horford be willing to come here with that group? Would we have enough left over to trade for Cousins if he became available?

I'm just saying this lineup is pretty solid and doesn't cost us a lot of young guys:

Bledsoe, Goodwin (address this in offseason)
Booker, Butler, Bogdan
Butler, Warren, Bogdan
Horford, draftee or just keep Tele, Leuer. Maybe Jones or DMo instead of Horford if they check out.
Len, Chandler

TeamTragic · Post #648 » by **TeamTragic** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:37 pm

Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Kieff was moved during a criminal investigation. Knight can be traded even with his contract. Cap is rising and treadmill teams need to keep moving that needle

jcsunsfan · Post #649 » by **jcsunsfan** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 7:23 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Kieff was moved during a criminal investigation. Knight can be traded even with his contract. Cap is rising and treadmill teams need to keep moving that needle

Correct,

sunshoopjunky · Post #650 » by **sunshoopjunky** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 8:24 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
sunshoopjunky wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:

The only way I give them OUR 1st is if they include Portis. I think that pick will have the most value/leverage draft night. The only problem is Boston has the nets pick and they are doing the same dance we are.

CHI: Butler/Portis
PHX: 2016 #3/2016 #13/2016 #29/Knight/Goodwin

Do you mean the above trade? That is too much. No way that we offer the #3 pick.

No, I would not trade the 2016 #13 (morris pick). I like that pick for Skal or Sabonis depending on what we do with the 2016 #13. I had not really thought about using the 2016 #29 much either as I would rather stash Zizic with that pick unless someone falls.

I was thinking more 2016 #3 only

Post #651 » by **bwgood77** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 8:48 pm

Butler is probably one of the last guys the Bulls would trade. And if he was on the table it would be far more than just team like Boston, Philly and Orlando wanting him. More than half the league would probably have interest.

thamadkant · Post #652 » by **thamadkant** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 11:43 pm

Watson as a coach is such a meh move.
He doesnt have merit as a coach.

Seems like a good person and professional. But as a coach he is unknown.

He loves sucking up to players though.

He sucked up to Morris... Then he got traded.
Now he is sucking up to Knight, Bledsoe etc.

One of them will go.... I rather keep Bledsoe, but it all depends on who comes back in a package.

AtheJ415 · Post #653 » by **AtheJ415** » Fri Apr 1, 2016 11:51 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Butler is probably one of the last guys the Bulls would trade. And if he was on the table it would be far more than just team like Boston, Philly and Orlando wanting him. More than half the league would probably have interest.

You're missing the point. If Chicago is moving him they are blowing it up. Sure, others would be interested, but what would they have to offer that would help a rebuild? Only a few teams have the picks they would want. Teams like Houston, Dallas, SA, etc. who might be interested couldn't offer the package of picks and young players they would want. Nobody is moving Butler for a package of middling vet role players or middling young talent. They'd want picks.

In that scenario, the teams I listed win out. If Chicago was trying to win now, then sure, those others would help, but if your goal is to win now why are you trading Jimmy Butler?

Post #654 » by **bwgood77** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 12:39 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Butler is probably one of the last guys the Bulls would trade. And if he was on the table it would be far more than just team like Boston, Philly and Orlando wanting him. More than half the league would probably have interest.

You're missing the point. If Chicago is moving him they are blowing it up. Sure, others would be interested, but what would they have to offer that would help a rebuild? Only a few teams have the picks they would want. Teams like Houston, Dallas, SA, etc. who might be interested couldn't offer the package of picks and young players they would want. Nobody is moving Butler for a package of middling vet role players or middling young talent. They'd want picks.

In that scenario, the teams I listed win out. If Chicago was trying to win now, then sure, those others would help, but if your goal is to win now why are you trading Jimmy Butler?

No my point is they are not moving him. If they want to rebuild he's a good guy to start with.

RaisingArizona · Post #655 » by **RaisingArizona** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 2:17 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Just like Kieff huh?

Exactly. He said the same thing there.

Mulhollanddrive · Post #656 » by **Mulhollanddrive** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 2:33 am

Our 3 most expensive players look to have big question marks on them now:
- Bledsoe reoccuring knee that needed surgery.
- Knight reoccuring groin that may need another surgery.
- Chandler turning 34, is he reliable physically and even mentally.

That will make going for 'win now' built on a risky foundation for next season.

Post #657 » by **bwgood77** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 2:50 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:Our 3 most expensive players look to have big question marks on them now:
- Bledsoe reoccuring knee that needed surgery.
- Knight reoccuring groin that may need another surgery.
- Chandler turning 34, is he reliable physically and even mentally.

That will make going for 'win now' built on a risky foundation for next season.

They only make a combined $42 million or so a year. Wow, that's actually a lot. That's more than I make in 5 years.

Frank Lee · Post #658 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 2:53 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Just like Kieff huh?

if you mean Kieff at 24 million is just like Knight at 56 million ...then sure

Post #659 » by **bwgood77** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 3:13 am

Frank Lee wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:The wishful pipe dreaming for a Knight trade should just quit right now.

Nobody is going to pony up 56 mill over 4 yrs for this misguided chucker. Not when you could just sign GGreen, Courtney Lee, or JCrawford for way way less.

Knight was a mistake... and he is our mistake, like it or not. McMully pooed the screwch on both BK and Chandler. They have no value right now... period. Best bet is to try to make the best out of it.... and thus the company spew from Watson. God, I hope he was just spouting. The last thing I want to see is Booker being compromised.

You want to trade somebody... start with Bledsoe

Just like Kieff huh?

if you mean Kieff at 24 million is just like Knight at 56 million ...then sure

Yeah, I thought Markieff had more trade value than Knight, mostly due to contract and oversaturation of guards, and Knight being a combo, inefficient, turnover prone guard.

The trade forum has a thread on his trade value and it looks like among more general fans, they think he has late lottery to end of first round pick value. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1433959

Of course you wouldn't think someone with that kind of value would be making $56 million over the next 4 years, but I guess you could look across the league and see that stuff all over the place.

sunshoopjunky · Post #660 » by **sunshoopjunky** » Sat Apr 2, 2016 6:15 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Butler is probably one of the last guys the Bulls would trade. And if he was on the table it would be far more than just team like Boston, Philly and Orlando wanting him. More than half the league would probably have interest.

In that scenario, the teams I listed win out. If Chicago was trying to win now, then sure, those others would help, but if your goal is to win now why are you trading Jimmy Butler?

Yeah thats why I think getting him and Portis is not happening. So I would not really want to give up the pick to the Bulls so that really kinda puts us out of it dont you think?