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The TJ Warren Thread!

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Zelaznyrules
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#661 » by Zelaznyrules » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:45 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
darealjuice wrote:
He never said it was a rite of passage for a male lol... all he's saying is that he's become more confident going from the awkward, quiet TJ Warren to a more confident, talkative one that does stuff like pierce his ears to stand out.


Maybe you're interpreting it correctly but that isn't exactly what he said. He said "evolving all around from talking to wearing earrings in his ears" which does describe a female rite of passage in U.S. culture. A lot of guys wear earrings so it didn't cross by mind that he was saying TJ was trying to "stand out" by wearing earrings. But, regardless, that brings up another question. When did he get them pierced and did he perhaps get a severe infection from it, hence the "minor head injury"? Just a thought but I know I'd feel a little better about all things TJ related if that proved to be the case.

That's how I read it. But I can see DRJ's point of TJ being more confident in self-expression.


I can too, matter of fact, I think he's correct. It isn't how it was said but I do think he interpreted it correctly. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I do believe I may be on to something too. The TJ situation would make a lot of sense if it turned out that Warren got an infection from the piercing which led to him being out for several games. I can even see them deciding to call it a minor head injury.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#662 » by PackSuns » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:34 pm

TJ Warren is a gym rat. He has been at the Dail Center in Raleigh practicing everyday all day. Sometimes sleeps there.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#663 » by Damkac » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:06 pm

He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#664 » by PackSuns » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:04 am

Damkac wrote:He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.


Not flashy enough. Seems like actual production and consistency is over looked these days. A player that doesn't turn the ball over, doesn't need a ton of shots and doesn't need the ball in his hands all the time to be productive is a premium in this league. He will excel and hope it is with the Suns otherwise he will come back to haunt us. Remember he missed quite a bit of time the last 2 years and was underutilized his rookie season.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#665 » by DaleyBlind » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:36 am

Damkac wrote:He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.


OK, i can accept Warren has some big fans on this board, but Untouchable....Spare me.

And its been stated numerous times why we all dont have a hard on for the guy. He cant be a starter long term next to Booker because he is not good defender and cant hit the 3pt shot at a decent clip. Im all for keeping him as the 6th man but thats it.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#666 » by Zelaznyrules » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:42 am

DaleyBlind wrote:
Damkac wrote:He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.


OK, i can accept Warren has some big fans on this board, but Untouchable....Spare me.

And its been stated numerous times why we all dont have a hard on for the guy. He cant be a starter long term next to Booker because he is not good defender and cant hit the 3pt shot at a decent clip. Im all for keeping him as the 6th man but thats it.


Surely there is something between 6th man at best and untouchable? I don't think he's peaked and IMO he's already, at worst, an average small forward. That middle part of the season really seems to weigh heavy on a lot of minds but the rest of the time he was solid defensively and a nice complement to Booker. I doubt we'll find a better complement to him in this draft although obviously Jackson has some potential.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#667 » by PackSuns » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:34 am

DaleyBlind wrote:
Damkac wrote:He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.


OK, i can accept Warren has some big fans on this board, but Untouchable....Spare me.

And its been stated numerous times why we all dont have a hard on for the guy. He cant be a starter long term next to Booker because he is not good defender and cant hit the 3pt shot at a decent clip. Im all for keeping him as the 6th man but thats it.


I guess I watch the game differently. I don't think he is untouchable but I think he has been above average on defense. Definitely much better than 75% of this team. His last 4 coaches and his current GM have praised his defense. He will improve that's for sure. Maybe I have a hard on for him but why does he make you so limp?
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#668 » by DaleyBlind » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:57 am

PackSuns wrote:
DaleyBlind wrote:
Damkac wrote:He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.


OK, i can accept Warren has some big fans on this board, but Untouchable....Spare me.

And its been stated numerous times why we all dont have a hard on for the guy. He cant be a starter long term next to Booker because he is not good defender and cant hit the 3pt shot at a decent clip. Im all for keeping him as the 6th man but thats it.


I guess I watch the game differently. I don't think he is untouchable but I think he has been above average on defense. Definitely much better than 75% of this team. His last 4 coaches and his current GM have praised his defense. He will improve that's for sure. Maybe I have a hard on for him but why does he make you so limp?


Ive stated numerous times why im not a fan of starting Warren next to Booker. We have different views of his defense though, so we are not going to agree.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#669 » by Zelaznyrules » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:47 am

DaleyBlind wrote:
PackSuns wrote:
DaleyBlind wrote:
OK, i can accept Warren has some big fans on this board, but Untouchable....Spare me.

And its been stated numerous times why we all dont have a hard on for the guy. He cant be a starter long term next to Booker because he is not good defender and cant hit the 3pt shot at a decent clip. Im all for keeping him as the 6th man but thats it.


I guess I watch the game differently. I don't think he is untouchable but I think he has been above average on defense. Definitely much better than 75% of this team. His last 4 coaches and his current GM have praised his defense. He will improve that's for sure. Maybe I have a hard on for him but why does he make you so limp?


Ive stated numerous times why im not a fan of starting Warren next to Booker. We have different views of his defense though, so we are not going to agree.


A small forward that is a threat to score any time he touches the ball but doesn't need to touch the ball every possession? That sounds like the perfect match to Booker, defense notwithstanding. I'm not sure what problems you have with him as a defender but we've already tested the Booker/Tucker route, I didn't care for that at all. Granted, I'm not much of a stats person but to the eye Warren seems like he's improved considerably and is a pretty fair defender now.

Other than just the general statement that you don't care for his defense, what are you seeing that I'm missing? Personally I find it very difficult to pinpoint defensive problems when the team as a whole is so poor at that end of the court and that was even with Tucker and Chandler logging serious minutes.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#670 » by Frank Lee » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:07 am

nit picking

would it be absurd to say all the Suns' players could improve on D ?
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#671 » by Zelaznyrules » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:59 am

Frank Lee wrote:nit picking

would it be absurd to say all the Suns' players could improve on D ?


I would think that's a safe bet given that we are at or near the bottom of most defensive stats. I just don't know how someone can single any one player out? Sure, when you see Booker fail to rotate, that's pretty obvious. But so much of defense is contingent on every player doing what they're supposed to so it's difficult to say who is at fault on most plays - for me, anyway.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#672 » by bwgood77 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:49 am

It seems like some blame Warren for Booker's defensive deficiencies as well. It would be nice to have that glue guy defender, that Shane Battier type..

It doesn't have to be the draft, and PJ Tucker was a poor version of this, but I think all our players get better if we find a guy like that...but that is far from making TJ expendable.

When Morey came to the Rockets, a huge chunk of the team’s allotted payroll — the N.B.A. caps payrolls and taxes teams that exceed them — was committed, for many years to come, to two superstars: Tracy ­McGrady and Yao Ming. Morey had to find ways to improve the Rockets without spending money. “We couldn’t afford another superstar,” he says, “so we went looking for nonsuperstars that we thought were undervalued.” He went looking, essentially, for underpaid players. “That’s the scarce resource in the N.B.A.,” he says. “Not the superstar but the undervalued player.” Sifting the population of midlevel N.B.A. players, he came up with a list of 15, near the top of which was the Memphis Grizzlies’ forward Shane Battier. This perplexed even the man who hired Morey to rethink basketball. “All I knew was Shane’s stats,” Alexander says, “and obviously they weren’t great. He had to sell me. It was hard for me to see it.”
Alexander wasn’t alone. It was, and is, far easier to spot what Battier doesn’t do than what he does. His conventional statistics are unremarkable: he doesn’t score many points, snag many rebounds, block many shots, steal many balls or dish out many assists.

Battier’s game is a weird combination of obvious weaknesses and nearly invisible strengths. When he is on the court, his teammates get better, often a lot better, and his opponents get worse — often a lot worse. He may not grab huge numbers of rebounds, but he has an uncanny ability to improve his teammates’ rebounding. He doesn’t shoot much, but when he does, he takes only the most efficient shots. He also has a knack for getting the ball to teammates who are in a position to do the same, and he commits few turnovers. On defense, although he routinely guards the N.B.A.’s most prolific scorers, he significantly ­reduces their shooting percentages. At the same time he somehow improves the defensive efficiency of his teammates — probably, Morey surmises, by helping them out in all sorts of subtle ways. “I call him Lego,” Morey says. “When he’s on the court, all the pieces start to fit together. And everything that leads to winning that you can get to through intellect instead of innate ability, Shane excels in. I’ll bet he’s in the hundredth percentile of every category.”

For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. (“Someone created the box score,” Morey says, “and he should be shot.”) How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player’s value as a ­rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player’s zone.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Warren is very valuable at what he does...if we can just find a guy like this to either come off the bench if needed or even start while TJ or someone else comes off the bench, we would be good. Can McD find such a guy?

It seems like Memphis does a good job of this. They are utilizing undrafted rookies in spurts this season for what they need...Troy Williams and most recently Wayne Selden.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#673 » by DaleyBlind » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:09 am

Zelaznyrules wrote:
DaleyBlind wrote:
PackSuns wrote:
I guess I watch the game differently. I don't think he is untouchable but I think he has been above average on defense. Definitely much better than 75% of this team. His last 4 coaches and his current GM have praised his defense. He will improve that's for sure. Maybe I have a hard on for him but why does he make you so limp?


Ive stated numerous times why im not a fan of starting Warren next to Booker. We have different views of his defense though, so we are not going to agree.


A small forward that is a threat to score any time he touches the ball but doesn't need to touch the ball every possession? That sounds like the perfect match to Booker, defense notwithstanding. I'm not sure what problems you have with him as a defender but we've already tested the Booker/Tucker route, I didn't care for that at all. Granted, I'm not much of a stats person but to the eye Warren seems like he's improved considerably and is a pretty fair defender now.

Other than just the general statement that you don't care for his defense, what are you seeing that I'm missing? Personally I find it very difficult to pinpoint defensive problems when the team as a whole is so poor at that end of the court and that was even with Tucker and Chandler logging serious minutes.


Eye tells me he is below average, he like Booker blows alot of rotations frequently, and he struggles to stay in front of players. The only real improvement i have seen is rebounding (since Tucker left) and his overall effort,

Defensive RPM has Warren ranked almost last in the league at SF. He is only graded better than Wiggins, Shabazz, Ingram and McDermott.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#674 » by DaleyBlind » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:13 am

bwgood77 wrote:It seems like some blame Warren for Booker's defensive deficiencies as well. It would be nice to have that glue guy defender, that Shane Battier type..

It doesn't have to be the draft, and PJ Tucker was a poor version of this, but I think all our players get better if we find a guy like that...but that is far from making TJ expendable.


I dont blame Warren, for Bookers deficiencies. Bookers defense is almost laughable at times, half the time he doesn't even try.
At least Warren gives consistent effort this season.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#675 » by Zelaznyrules » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:23 am

DaleyBlind wrote:
Zelaznyrules wrote:
DaleyBlind wrote:
Ive stated numerous times why im not a fan of starting Warren next to Booker. We have different views of his defense though, so we are not going to agree.


A small forward that is a threat to score any time he touches the ball but doesn't need to touch the ball every possession? That sounds like the perfect match to Booker, defense notwithstanding. I'm not sure what problems you have with him as a defender but we've already tested the Booker/Tucker route, I didn't care for that at all. Granted, I'm not much of a stats person but to the eye Warren seems like he's improved considerably and is a pretty fair defender now.

Other than just the general statement that you don't care for his defense, what are you seeing that I'm missing? Personally I find it very difficult to pinpoint defensive problems when the team as a whole is so poor at that end of the court and that was even with Tucker and Chandler logging serious minutes.


Eye tells me he is below average, he like Booker blows alot of rotations frequently, and he struggles to stay in front of players. The only real improvement i have seen is rebounding (since Tucker left) and his overall effort,

Defensive RPM has Warren ranked almost last in the league at SF. He is only graded better than Wiggins, Shabazz, Ingram and McDermott.


I think you have to take into consideration the anomaly of that stretch of basketball surrounding his minor head injury. He was often listless, almost dazed out there for a significant stretch of games. It actually started a couple of games prior to him being held out of games and was so bad that Watson benched him during his last game and then pretty much went after him (verbally) in the post game interview. And he was so obviously not the same player when he was finally cleared to play again. But I think if you look at him for the first 11 games and the final 25 or so you'll see a much better defender than the one that played in the other 30 games.

I know he's entering his 4th season but he's also still learning the game. Compare him to Wiggins, for example; they are from the same class but Wiggins has logged 5,130 more minutes than TJ (Wiggins has considerably more than double TJ's court time). That's a huge difference in experience and team defense overwhelms a lot of young players, just look at Booker.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#676 » by sunsbum » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:58 pm

I asked my buddy what happened to Warren and his mystery injury. He said he took some wrong medicine and it messed his whole body up. Not sure why that would be so hush hush, but there you have it.
"Mannnnn I’m like the guy that pissed this whole board off saying literally all year no Mikal, no Mikal in the KD trade."
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#677 » by jcsunsfan » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:48 pm

Damkac wrote:He should be untouchable. Don't understand why so many posters see him as trade asset.


The third best player on the second worst team in the league should not be untouchable. That doesn't mean we should trade him. We should be open to upgrade any position, with possibly the exception of Booker.

A two-way sf would be perfect along side Booker--a Paul George type of player. A good distributing pg would be great too. It just so happens there are two pg's and a sf that fit the bill in this draft. I kind of like Ball as a fit better than Fultz, but Fultz might be the better player. Jackson would be great too. I have no doubt that Jackson is a better fit than TJ. So, if we draft JJ, TJ does become tradeable and would probably command some real value.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#678 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:57 pm

bwgood77 wrote:It seems like some blame Warren for Booker's defensive deficiencies as well. It would be nice to have that glue guy defender, that Shane Battier type..

It doesn't have to be the draft, and PJ Tucker was a poor version of this, but I think all our players get better if we find a guy like that...but that is far from making TJ expendable.

When Morey came to the Rockets, a huge chunk of the team’s allotted payroll — the N.B.A. caps payrolls and taxes teams that exceed them — was committed, for many years to come, to two superstars: Tracy ­McGrady and Yao Ming. Morey had to find ways to improve the Rockets without spending money. “We couldn’t afford another superstar,” he says, “so we went looking for nonsuperstars that we thought were undervalued.” He went looking, essentially, for underpaid players. “That’s the scarce resource in the N.B.A.,” he says. “Not the superstar but the undervalued player.” Sifting the population of midlevel N.B.A. players, he came up with a list of 15, near the top of which was the Memphis Grizzlies’ forward Shane Battier. This perplexed even the man who hired Morey to rethink basketball. “All I knew was Shane’s stats,” Alexander says, “and obviously they weren’t great. He had to sell me. It was hard for me to see it.”
Alexander wasn’t alone. It was, and is, far easier to spot what Battier doesn’t do than what he does. His conventional statistics are unremarkable: he doesn’t score many points, snag many rebounds, block many shots, steal many balls or dish out many assists.

Battier’s game is a weird combination of obvious weaknesses and nearly invisible strengths. When he is on the court, his teammates get better, often a lot better, and his opponents get worse — often a lot worse. He may not grab huge numbers of rebounds, but he has an uncanny ability to improve his teammates’ rebounding. He doesn’t shoot much, but when he does, he takes only the most efficient shots. He also has a knack for getting the ball to teammates who are in a position to do the same, and he commits few turnovers. On defense, although he routinely guards the N.B.A.’s most prolific scorers, he significantly ­reduces their shooting percentages. At the same time he somehow improves the defensive efficiency of his teammates — probably, Morey surmises, by helping them out in all sorts of subtle ways. “I call him Lego,” Morey says. “When he’s on the court, all the pieces start to fit together. And everything that leads to winning that you can get to through intellect instead of innate ability, Shane excels in. I’ll bet he’s in the hundredth percentile of every category.”

For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game. (“Someone created the box score,” Morey says, “and he should be shot.”) How many points a player scores, for example, is no true indication of how much he has helped his team. Another example: if you want to know a player’s value as a ­rebounder, you need to know not whether he got a rebound but the likelihood of the team getting the rebound when a missed shot enters that player’s zone.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Warren is very valuable at what he does...if we can just find a guy like this to either come off the bench if needed or even start while TJ or someone else comes off the bench, we would be good. Can McD find such a guy?

It seems like Memphis does a good job of this. They are utilizing undrafted rookies in spurts this season for what they need...Troy Williams and most recently Wayne Selden.


DJJ!!! :D
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#679 » by Damkac » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:37 pm

By "untouchable" I mean I wouldn't trade him for anything that could be realistically offered for him. I think he has more value on Suns roster than as a trade piece.
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Re: The TJ Warren Thread! 

Post#680 » by youngthegiant » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:04 am

Denver needs a sf who can score. #13 for Warren????

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