Summer League Fun

[RunDogGun]

And the sound of crickets fills the air.

Just saw his post, so there really isn't a need for that.

So just so we are clear, 2.8 rebounds per game for a starting PF in the summer league is a good thing, or a bad thing?

To answer your previous question, TJ's +/- for the Houston game was -27.

[GetYourPHX]

Sometimes I come to this board and the residents convince me that they: 1. Don't watch the games, or 2. Are completely insane.

T.J. Warren has been the absolute best player at the Vegas Summer League. The guy is averaging 20 points a game on 57% shooting! If you actually watched the games, you would know that he's scoring in the flow of the offense and not pressing to get his own shot. He's letting Booker/Archie/Len/James lead the offense the majority of the time. I have no doubt that if he wanted to, Warren could go out and get 35 a game against these scrubs. He's a level above the rest of the competition and its not even close.

The ONLY knock on Warren from Vegas is that he clearly struggles defending bigger players - BUT WHO DOESN'T?!? Name me one basketball player in history who magically can defend bigger players in the post. It doesn't happen. He's playing out of position and still killing it.

Warren was a steal in the draft last year. He's outperforming Exum/Smart/Randle/Vonleh/Dougie/Lavine and everyone else in this competition and its not even close. The only players that have looked nearly as dominant are Anderson and Okafor, and both of them are getting the full green light from their teams. One year later, I would take Warren over everyone in that draft besides Wiggins/Parker and maybe Vonleh (bigs take a bit, who knows).

[Saberestar]

Sometimes I come to this board and the residents convince me that they: 1. Don't watch the games, or 2. Are completely insane.

T.J. Warren has been the absolute best player at the Vegas Summer League. The guy is averaging 20 points a game on 57% shooting! If you actually watched the games, you would know that he's scoring in the flow of the offense and not pressing to get his own shot. He's letting Booker/Archie/Len/James lead the offense the majority of the time. I have no doubt that if he wanted to, Warren could go out and get 35 a game against these scrubs. He's a level above the rest of the competition and its not even close.

The ONLY knock on Warren from Vegas is that he clearly struggles defending bigger players - BUT WHO DOESN'T?!? Name me one basketball player in history who magically can defend bigger players in the post. It doesn't happen. He's playing out of position and still killing it.

Warren was a steal in the draft last year. He's outperforming Exum/Smart/Randle/Vonleh/Dougie/Lavine and everyone else in this competition and its not even close. The only players that have looked nearly as dominant are Anderson and Okafor, and both of them are getting the full green light from their teams. One year later, I would take Warren over everyone in that draft besides Wiggins/Parker and maybe Vonleh (bigs take a bit, who knows).

I agree. Warren has been terrific so far in the Summer league.

[RunDogGun]

Sometimes I come to this board and the residents convince me that they: 1. Don't watch the games, or 2. Are completely insane.


The ONLY knock on Warren from Vegas is that he clearly struggles defending bigger players - BUT WHO DOESN'T?!? Name me one basketball player in history who magically can defend bigger players in the post. It doesn't happen. He's playing out of position and still killing it.

Your knock is the same knock I had, and I added his very low rebounding, but I'm insane, or haven't watch the games? Are you of the mind that his defense will be better or worse if we start him like others have suggested? Will his rebounding will be better or worse going up against NBA starters?

I love it, so many here call all our players the absolute worst in the league, and speak in hyperbole, and I make two observations, which weren't off at all, and many here would agree, and I'm either insane or I don't watch the games?

To answer your question about guarding bigger players just fine, we have a starting sf that does just fine against bigger players.

[saintEscaton]

Warren will end up being a solid offensive rebounder( his college OReb % each year has been either higher or very close to his DReb%) since he uses his instinctive knack for being around the basket to corral second chance opportunities in traffic. But on the other end he has maintained his collegiate habit of preferring to cheat and prematureyly leak out for easy fastbreak transition buckets rather than box out and get himself the inside position to beat out quicker/rangier wings who are going up against him. He has a good motor and is high effort so thats comforting as he has no issue locating the ball or judging its trajectory

[Cutter]

People keep saying that Warren is out of position when he plays PF. This modern era of position less basketball means you need to be able to play multiple positions based on match ups.

Last year Warren and Tucker played the following minutes (%) at each position:

Warren total minutes played: SF= 63% PF=32% SG=5%
Tucker total minutes played: SF=75%, PF=4% SG=21%

So when posters see Warren at PF, that is exactly where he is supposed to play based on match ups on the floor.
When posters see Tucker play SG nearly 25% of the time that is exactly where he is supposed to play based on match ups on the floor.
Neither player is out of position at any time during the game.

Personally I am trying to modernize my thinking a bit on the subject of position less players. For me it makes for a more enjoyable basketball watching experience.

[WeekapaugGroove]

People keep saying that Warren is out of position when he plays PF. This modern era of position less basketball means you need to be able to play multiple positions based on match ups.

Last year Warren and Tucker played the following minutes (%) at each position:

Warren total minutes played: SF= 63% PF=32% SG=5%
Tucker total minutes played: SF=75%, PF=4% SG=21%

So when posters see Warren at PF, that is exactly where he is supposed to play based on match ups on the floor.
When posters see Tucker play SG nearly 25% of the time that is exactly where he is supposed to play based on match ups on the floor.
Neither player is out of position at any time during the game.

Personally I am trying to modernize my thinking a bit on the subject of position less players. For me it makes for a more enjoyable basketball watching experience.

very good post. People are just way to caught up in the antiquated notion of defined pg, sg, sf, pf, c positions. It's just not that relevant anymore. Teams switch so much on d these days the positions get blurred defensively.

[charley barkles]

This was probably posted already but I can't find it... What time is our next game? And against who?

[bwgood77]

Maybe he is saying that he has the ability to pass, but just doesn't use it enough to call it another trick. His rebounding is pretty terrible, and his defense is a bit weak. Right now he has a good floater, but pretty average on other shots.

See? Now you remember?

But I'm referring to these Summer League games. Isn't that what this thread is about? 2.8 rebounds for a starting PF isn't terrible? Many here claim Keef is a terrible rebounder, and he doubles TJ and that is in a real season.

Again, I'm not saying he can't learn these things but man......

I don't expect him to log that many minutes at PF in the regular season. I figured you knew he was a SF normally. When playing with Len, he doesn't need to have great rebounding #s if Len pulls them down. Our team wants a quick transition offense, so he probably isn't told to normally go after the defensive reobound, His role won't typically be to get a ton of rebounds. He is a pretty damn good offensive rebounder though. He averaged 2.6 defensive rebounds per 36 but 2.4 offensive rebounds. He is very good at putting himself in position to get offensive rebounds, but probably hovers more around the perimeter normally on D. If he is guarding a stretch four when he plays four, he likely won't get many defensive rebounds.

Edit: I just went to my notifications and responded, and now reading the thread I see that the offensive rebound vs defensive rebound and being out of position has already been mentioned.

[bwgood77]

I was pulling up the Philly/Houston box score to look at Harrell's stats, which were good, but who is this Alan Williams guy? 22 pts and 21 rebounds? 260 pounds?

http://www.nba.com/games/20150717/PHIHOU/gameinfo.html?ls=slt

[bwgood77]

This was probably posted already but I can't find it... What time is our next game? And against who?

I thought for sure we'd have a game today but just noticed we don't. Next game is tomorrow against the Bulls at 5pm Phx time.

[bwgood77]

Sometimes I come to this board and the residents convince me that they: 1. Don't watch the games, or 2. Are completely insane.

T.J. Warren has been the absolute best player at the Vegas Summer League. The guy is averaging 20 points a game on 57% shooting! If you actually watched the games, you would know that he's scoring in the flow of the offense and not pressing to get his own shot. He's letting Booker/Archie/Len/James lead the offense the majority of the time. I have no doubt that if he wanted to, Warren could go out and get 35 a game against these scrubs. He's a level above the rest of the competition and its not even close.

The ONLY knock on Warren from Vegas is that he clearly struggles defending bigger players - BUT WHO DOESN'T?!? Name me one basketball player in history who magically can defend bigger players in the post. It doesn't happen. He's playing out of position and still killing it.

Warren was a steal in the draft last year. He's outperforming Exum/Smart/Randle/Vonleh/Dougie/Lavine and everyone else in this competition and its not even close. The only players that have looked nearly as dominant are Anderson and Okafor, and both of them are getting the full green light from their teams. One year later, I would take Warren over everyone in that draft besides Wiggins/Parker and maybe Vonleh (bigs take a bit, who knows).

I don't see too many people complaining about Warren. I think most people are pretty high on him. About rebound rate, his overall rebound rate is about the same as Parsons, Hayward, JJ and Barnes. Not great, but other good players who I've never heard people complaining about their rebounding.

I've always thought his tendencies for offensive rebounds were great.

[RunDogGun]

See? Now you remember?

But I'm referring to these Summer League games. Isn't that what this thread is about? 2.8 rebounds for a starting PF isn't terrible? Many here claim Keef is a terrible rebounder, and he doubles TJ and that is in a real season.

Again, I'm not saying he can't learn these things but man......

I don't expect him to log that many minutes at PF in the regular season. I figured you knew he was a SF normally. When playing with Len, he doesn't need to have great rebounding #s if Len pulls them down. Our team wants a quick transition offense, so he probably isn't told to normally go after the defensive reobound, His role won't typically be to get a ton of rebounds. He is a pretty damn good offensive rebounder though. He averaged 2.6 defensive rebounds per 36 but 2.4 offensive rebounds. He is very good at putting himself in position to get offensive rebounds, but probably hovers more around the perimeter normally on D. If he is guarding a stretch four when he plays four, he likely won't get many defensive rebounds.

Edit: I just went to my notifications and responded, and now reading the thread I see that the offensive rebound vs defensive rebound and being out of position has already been mentioned.

But if he is weak guarding PF in the summer league, wouldn't teams just set screens so he is guarding, Griffin, Green, LMA, and so forth? He can't start like many are thinking. He will be a good scoring forward off the bench, and he will be fine. If his defense improves along with his rebounding, I could see a starting job.

[RunDogGun]

Sometimes I come to this board and the residents convince me that they: 1. Don't watch the games, or 2. Are completely insane.

T.J. Warren has been the absolute best player at the Vegas Summer League. The guy is averaging 20 points a game on 57% shooting! If you actually watched the games, you would know that he's scoring in the flow of the offense and not pressing to get his own shot. He's letting Booker/Archie/Len/James lead the offense the majority of the time. I have no doubt that if he wanted to, Warren could go out and get 35 a game against these scrubs. He's a level above the rest of the competition and its not even close.

The ONLY knock on Warren from Vegas is that he clearly struggles defending bigger players - BUT WHO DOESN'T?!? Name me one basketball player in history who magically can defend bigger players in the post. It doesn't happen. He's playing out of position and still killing it.

Warren was a steal in the draft last year. He's outperforming Exum/Smart/Randle/Vonleh/Dougie/Lavine and everyone else in this competition and its not even close. The only players that have looked nearly as dominant are Anderson and Okafor, and both of them are getting the full green light from their teams. One year later, I would take Warren over everyone in that draft besides Wiggins/Parker and maybe Vonleh (bigs take a bit, who knows).

I don't see too many people complaining about Warren. I think most people are pretty high on him. About rebound rate, his overall rebound rate is about the same as Parsons, Hayward, JJ and Barnes. Not great, but other good players who I've never heard people complaining about their rebounding.

I've always thought his tendencies for offensive rebounds were great.

Well his rebounding rate for this SL has to be a minor concern, right? I mean scoring in the SL is much easier than going up against starters in the real league, right?

I like how he cuts, and moves without the ball. I like his hustle, even if it looks like he should have more gears to move up. I guess I look at him more like a Ced than a Marion.

Oh well, this got blown out proportion, yet again.

[bwgood77]

But I'm referring to these Summer League games. Isn't that what this thread is about? 2.8 rebounds for a starting PF isn't terrible? Many here claim Keef is a terrible rebounder, and he doubles TJ and that is in a real season.

Again, I'm not saying he can't learn these things but man......

I don't expect him to log that many minutes at PF in the regular season. I figured you knew he was a SF normally. When playing with Len, he doesn't need to have great rebounding #s if Len pulls them down. Our team wants a quick transition offense, so he probably isn't told to normally go after the defensive reobound, His role won't typically be to get a ton of rebounds. He is a pretty damn good offensive rebounder though. He averaged 2.6 defensive rebounds per 36 but 2.4 offensive rebounds. He is very good at putting himself in position to get offensive rebounds, but probably hovers more around the perimeter normally on D. If he is guarding a stretch four when he plays four, he likely won't get many defensive rebounds.

Edit: I just went to my notifications and responded, and now reading the thread I see that the offensive rebound vs defensive rebound and being out of position has already been mentioned.

But if he is weak guarding PF in the summer league, wouldn't teams just set screens so he is guarding, Griffin, Green, LMA, and so forth? He can't start like many are thinking. He will be a good scoring forward off the bench, and he will be fine. If his defense improves along with his rebounding, I could see a starting job.

He won't start initially, but I imagine he will start at some point during his rookie contract. He will make a great sixth man this year though. As for your screens and switching, if you are going down that path, I imagine they would rather do it to Brandon Knight than him. It's pretty rare for really young guys in the league to come in and be premier defenders.

[bwgood77]

Sometimes I come to this board and the residents convince me that they: 1. Don't watch the games, or 2. Are completely insane.

T.J. Warren has been the absolute best player at the Vegas Summer League. The guy is averaging 20 points a game on 57% shooting! If you actually watched the games, you would know that he's scoring in the flow of the offense and not pressing to get his own shot. He's letting Booker/Archie/Len/James lead the offense the majority of the time. I have no doubt that if he wanted to, Warren could go out and get 35 a game against these scrubs. He's a level above the rest of the competition and its not even close.

The ONLY knock on Warren from Vegas is that he clearly struggles defending bigger players - BUT WHO DOESN'T?!? Name me one basketball player in history who magically can defend bigger players in the post. It doesn't happen. He's playing out of position and still killing it.

Warren was a steal in the draft last year. He's outperforming Exum/Smart/Randle/Vonleh/Dougie/Lavine and everyone else in this competition and its not even close. The only players that have looked nearly as dominant are Anderson and Okafor, and both of them are getting the full green light from their teams. One year later, I would take Warren over everyone in that draft besides Wiggins/Parker and maybe Vonleh (bigs take a bit, who knows).

I don't see too many people complaining about Warren. I think most people are pretty high on him. About rebound rate, his overall rebound rate is about the same as Parsons, Hayward, JJ and Barnes. Not great, but other good players who I've never heard people complaining about their rebounding.

I've always thought his tendencies for offensive rebounds were great.

Well his rebounding rate for this SL has to be a minor concern, right? I mean scoring in the SL is much easier than going up against starters in the real league, right?

I like how he cuts, and moves without the ball. I like his hustle, even if it looks like he should have more gears to move up. I guess I look at him more like a Ced than a Marion.

Oh well, this got blown out proportion, yet again.

Well, I don't think anyone else has a problem with his rebounding like you do. I do agree he is definitely more like Ced than Marion, but he is a bit like Marion as far as offensive rebounding goes...Marion was like a pogo stick around the rim...Warren is a little more smooth.

Marion was a GREAT SF rebounder though. That's extremely rare. I think Warren will be a better offensive player than Marion was.

[RunDogGun]

Sorry, I thought you had just written that you thought he should start, which is different from starting during his rookie contract. Either way both his defense and rebounding need to improve. I'd still like more range out of him.

I don't hate his rebounding or his defense, I've only to repeat this because my comments were blown out of proportion by five posters. His rebounding has been terrible. He had much better rebounding stats in the DLeague, which I think were similar players he is facing in the SL, and his defense is a bit weak. He can't guard bigger forwards, at least in this SL. Seems pretty straight forward, but I guess not.

[SSOL]

Warren has been fantastic. Arguably the highest ceiling of any player on the roster right now.

[bwgood77]

Sorry, I thought you had just written that you thought he should start, which is different from starting during his rookie contract. Either way both his defense and rebounding need to improve. I'd still like more range out of him.

I don't hate his rebounding or his defense, I've only to repeat this because my comments were blown out of proportion by five posters. His rebounding has been terrible. He had much better rebounding stats in the DLeague, which I think were similar players he is facing in the SL, and his defense is a bit weak. He can't guard bigger forwards, at least in this SL. Seems pretty straight forward, but I guess not.

I don't think he should start initially this season, but I'd love for him to earn the starting role at some point THIS season. Next season is likely PJ's last as a Sun, so by then hopefully, he is just a spot defender and TJ has become a stud.

Part of the reason we may be arguing is because I kind of have the line of thinking of maximizing strengths, rather than focusing on weaknesses. This has been talked about with Westbrook because he can be reckless. Do you complain about what you would like him to be better at or unleash him and let him do what he does best? If TJ is one of the better raw scorers in the game, I'm not going to hold him out for D or rebounding...I'm just going to make sure I surround him with the players that can cover for him.

This is talked about in many business books as of late...how most managers focus on improving weaknesses, rather than taking full advantage of what people are good at, and even focusing more efforts on that, so you can become elite in one area, rather than average in all. If you can focus on people's greatest strengths, and put the right team together to where everyone plays a part, and everyone is elite at something, that will be successful.

[PackSuns]

Sorry to blow things out of proportions. He's my hometown guy. Great family. He will start by midseason if not earlier. Bet on that.