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Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

What direction would you like the front office to take?

Keep developing young guys and keep first rounders
74
73%
Trade our 18 first/Jackson and whatever else for best player available
11
11%
Trade whatever it takes for vet PG and maybe also vet PF
9
9%
Trade vets for expiring contracts and 2nd rounders
7
7%
 
Total votes: 101

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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#661 » by jredsaz » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:00 am

DarkHawk wrote:I think what we're seeing from the Marlins' fire sale is a reason we shouldn't be so quick to hope Sarver sells the team.
Marlins went from a cheap owner to an even cheaper ownership group.


I'll take cheap and competent over Server any day.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#662 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:14 am

I hate defending Sarver as much as the next guy and I will probably need to shower a few more times today to wash off this guilt but Sarver seems to have been relatively hands off since McD's tenure. I feel like he took responsibility for the mistake he made with the impulse signings (Turkeyglue, Warrick, Childress) after Amare left. And as for the general dislike of Sarver from the NBPA because of his stand during the last CBA negotiation, I honestly feel like most NBA player really don't care about ownership. There's really two groups of ownership, the ones who are really well-liked/respected like Cuban, Lacob-Guber, Peter Holt and then you have pretty much everyone else. In the end, if a player is offered $12m to play for Sarver or $10m to play for Cuban, how much they "like" either of them is probably much lower on their consideration list than salary, role and plan for the team.

Someone on this board said this once regarding pushing Sarver out - better the devil you know, than the devil you don't
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#663 » by RaisingArizona » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:18 am

Saberestar wrote:
General Manager Ryan McDonough said that while Phoenix will look for ways to upgrade its roster, its focus is on doing that internally as players return from injuries.

The Suns are hopeful Devin Booker (strained left adductor muscle) will be back for the Dec. 26 game against Memphis and that rookie shooting guard Davon Reed (offseason knee surgery) will return around Jan. 1. Center Alan Williams, who had surgery in August to repair a torn meniscus, could be back sometime in March.

“If we do make a move it will be positionally to fill a short-term need,” McDonough said. “There’s nobody we can sign or trade for that’s going to come close to replicating half of Devin Booker’s production. Nobody out there is 22 years old and like Davon Reed, who we’re really high on. So we’re most excited about getting those guys back.”

“Those guys (Chandler and Dudley) mentor the young guys and teach the young guys how to play,” McDonough said. “If and when they get on the court they do a good job. If they’re not playing much or at all they accept that.

“I think it’s very important to have them echo and reinforce some of the messages our coaches are trying to deliver. I think in general you want to keep at least a few good vets around and we’re happy with those guys.”

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/12/14/phoenix-suns-trade-devin-booker-free-agents-tyson-chandler/951742001/

So the same roster for the next 52 games.


Hope this is some sort of smokescreen but probably isn't!
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#664 » by bwgood77 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:22 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I hate defending Sarver as much as the next guy and I will probably need to shower a few more times today to wash off this guilt but Sarver seems to have been relatively hands off since McD's tenure. I feel like he took responsibility for the mistake he made with the impulse signings (Turkeyglue, Warrick, Childress) after Amare left. And as for the general dislike of Sarver from the NBPA because of his stand during the last CBA negotiation, I honestly feel like most NBA player really don't care about ownership. There's really two groups of ownership, the ones who are really well-liked/respected like Cuban, Lacob-Guber, Peter Holt and then you have pretty much everyone else. In the end, if a player is offered $12m to play for Sarver or $10m to play for Cuban, how much they "like" either of them is probably much lower on their consideration list than salary, role and plan for the team.

Someone on this board said this once regarding pushing Sarver out - better the devil you know, than the devil you don't


Yeah, Sarver was bad for a long time in part because he was a combination of acting like a kid in a candy store, yet stubborn and cheap all at the same time. Then he has no patience. I'm not really a fan but a new owner can be scary. I don't follow baseball closely so I was just reading about the Marlins and that sounds like a nightmare scenario for fans.

Right here? There is no light at the end of the tunnel. This pain is going to extend for years. This is a bunch of billionaires investing in a leveraged buyout. They don’t care if the Marlins are bad for the next 10 years. They really don’t. Franchise values keep going up and up. All they have to do is park it and wait. They own the ballpark, after all. So liquidate the assets to keep costs down. Are there baseball games involved? Doesn’t matter. Liquidate and sit on the nest egg. That’s all that needs to happen.

This is how a new ownership group comes in, looks at a 28-year-old MVP coming off a 59-homer season and thinks, ugh, there’s nothing we can work with here. This is how they can break up the best outfield in baseball without getting a single blue-chip prospect in return.


https://www.sbnation.com/2017/12/14/16774396/marlins-stanton-ozuna-trades-rebuild-jeter

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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#665 » by bwgood77 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:24 am

ginobiliflops wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
General Manager Ryan McDonough said that while Phoenix will look for ways to upgrade its roster, its focus is on doing that internally as players return from injuries.

The Suns are hopeful Devin Booker (strained left adductor muscle) will be back for the Dec. 26 game against Memphis and that rookie shooting guard Davon Reed (offseason knee surgery) will return around Jan. 1. Center Alan Williams, who had surgery in August to repair a torn meniscus, could be back sometime in March.

“If we do make a move it will be positionally to fill a short-term need,” McDonough said. “There’s nobody we can sign or trade for that’s going to come close to replicating half of Devin Booker’s production. Nobody out there is 22 years old and like Davon Reed, who we’re really high on. So we’re most excited about getting those guys back.”

“Those guys (Chandler and Dudley) mentor the young guys and teach the young guys how to play,” McDonough said. “If and when they get on the court they do a good job. If they’re not playing much or at all they accept that.

“I think it’s very important to have them echo and reinforce some of the messages our coaches are trying to deliver. I think in general you want to keep at least a few good vets around and we’re happy with those guys.”

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2017/12/14/phoenix-suns-trade-devin-booker-free-agents-tyson-chandler/951742001/

So the same roster for the next 52 games.


Hope this is some sort of smokescreen but probably isn't!


Why would there be a smokescreen?
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#666 » by RaisingArizona » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:35 am

bwgood77 wrote:
ginobiliflops wrote:


Hope this is some sort of smokescreen but probably isn't!


Why would there be a smokescreen?

To make other teams think our players were off limits :lol: Wishful thinking. Idk. I would like to watch something that resembles NBA basketball and I guess that just won't be the case.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#667 » by sunsbum » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:50 am

I'd take Sarver over 75% of the people on this board, at least he's smart enough to learn from his mistakes as well as not wanting to trade off half our roster after 35 games.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#668 » by KLEON » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:10 am

Saberestar wrote:Gordon is gonna get the max from the Magic. He is a RFA. Impossible to sign him. Not an option.

Hold on Sir. I read recently that the Magic are not sure if Payton and Gordon are worth the max.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#669 » by RaisingArizona » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:18 am

sunsbum wrote:I'd take Sarver over 75% of the people on this board, at least he's smart enough to learn from his mistakes as well as not wanting to trade off half our roster after 35 games.

Who's suggesting selling draft picks or signing old ass vets? I'm talking about improving the talent on this **** team and not waiting 10 years for it to turn into a playoff appearance.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#670 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:18 am

KLEON wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Gordon is gonna get the max from the Magic. He is a RFA. Impossible to sign him. Not an option.

Hold on Sir. I read recently that the Magic are not sure if Payton and Gordon are worth the max.

Edited: I'd trade our roster minus Booker for him
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#671 » by Mulhollanddrive » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:03 am

Troy Daniels gets a career high 32 points then looks like a rookie will take his spot next year.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#672 » by bwgood77 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:25 am

batsmasher wrote:At some stage we have to stop giving McD credit for his failing picks because "everyone else liked him too". The whole challenge of drafting is being smarter than that. A miss is a miss, whether it be an airball or a rim out.

And as I said in the off season, trading Bled for a pick in the most recent draft was a GIMME move which never happened. Imagine having another one of those guys in the draft now and think about how differently we'd be framing this conversation.


Kings fans have to be even more depressed. Look at their recent draftees box scores tonight. Their forum is absolutely a ghost town too. http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400975167

http://bkref.com/tiny/tPXtU
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#673 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:44 am

bwgood77 wrote:
batsmasher wrote:At some stage we have to stop giving McD credit for his failing picks because "everyone else liked him too". The whole challenge of drafting is being smarter than that. A miss is a miss, whether it be an airball or a rim out.

And as I said in the off season, trading Bled for a pick in the most recent draft was a GIMME move which never happened. Imagine having another one of those guys in the draft now and think about how differently we'd be framing this conversation.


Kings fans have to be even more depressed. Look at their recent draftees box scores tonight. Their forum is absolutely a ghost town too. http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400975167

http://bkref.com/tiny/tPXtU

Never noticed but Mike James does take care of the ball very well. 2.4 Ast:TO Ratio
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#674 » by Frank Lee » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:56 am

McD has built a great bench

Trouble is he starting three of them
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#675 » by jredsaz » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:00 am

Tobias Harris is a player I would be all in on acquiring. 25, can shoot, very good efficiency. Continues to improve each year.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#676 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:12 am

jredsaz wrote:Tobias Harris is a player I would be all in on acquiring. 25, can shoot, very good efficiency. Continues to improve each year.

http://bkref.com/tiny/bziNA
Interesting comparison

Harris hits 3's at a very high rate but outside of that, he's statistically very close to TJ and about a year older. Only issue is $. His deals ends next year and he'll probably be looking at $30m a year for a player of his talent and age.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#677 » by Frank Lee » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:18 am

I wouldn’t expect anything less then a pudding out of poop speech from MCDook

But he’s right… Williams and Reed out hindered the performance of this team… I really think Reed could be sleeper good. If they play this year, they will be the best additions he can make

No point to try to shine this dirty nickel into a dime till next year.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#678 » by AtheJ415 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:37 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:No. I'm advocating against George Hill, Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, all guys who make huge amounts of money. There is a real and very tangible opportunity cost there. By making said move for the old dude who isn't worth his contract and isn't good enough to move the needle to even make the playoffs without additional moves, you ruin the opportunity to sign somebody in the offseason, all for winning a few (not many) more games today, with the only real method of still improving at that point limited to later draft picks and trades where you will have to give up some stuff of real value. Thus, you are trading more than just the players involved. The cap is our biggest and only advantage in FA. You want to ignore that, and literally everything bolded above was said about Tyson. No, we couldn't use guys like that. We could use a Gasol at 26, not at 32. And 32 year old bigs are in their prime for maybe 1 year. Their prime is exiting any second now.

Here are some guys we could use: Aaron Gordon, Porzingis, Capela, Cousins. Those are the types of needlechanging moves we should be targetting and that make sense. They likely won't happen, but if you are patient you will eventually get an opportunity at getting a guy who fits our team's age range. I would approve of any and all of those despite it hurting the tank this year. Those are very different from the awful desired contracts some here seem to covet like George Hill, Rubio, Gasol, and Conley.
I'll just say this; I wouldn't give up much for players like Hill, Gasol or Conley. They are way too expensive for who they are. Rubio I might look at because I think he's the vet PG who could help us. I don't have any issue overpaying short term money for a vet who can get us playing the right way and make Booker and TJ better. I don't mind paying for guys like DeAndre, Rubio, Kyrie (before he was traded) short term money because we have that now and these are player who I think can help us play good basketball.


The guys you list that we can use are not going anywhere. Have you looked at the thread on the General Board about top 20 players this season? People are arguing Capela is there. Zero chance anyone else on that list gets trade except a slim chance on Cousins..but 95% chance they max him and he takes it. And if we trade for him or tried to it would take more than someone like Bender, Chriss, Jackson and the Bucks or Heat pick and he might leave us anyway....probably would...why would he stay? I know you say Booker is a draw, but more than AD? It's not like AD is taking anything away for Cousins.

The only trade I would consider out of the names you mention is Monroe straight up for Hill. I think Hill would give us a vet PG who would play the right way and it could rub off and he will pass and can hit the 3 when needed. He is expensive but we could get out for 2019. If I thought we could make a big play in FA this next summer I would be against Hill, but I don't see it, but I understand not doing it for that space and for a potentially higher pick.

But Hill wants to win, so he very well might not be happy with the Suns either. It's probably best to avoid that, but I think he could potentially have a good influence on our team if we did trade for him. I wouldn't give up more than Monoe straight up though just to give the salary relief.


First, whether they are going anywhere is irrelevant. You wait until a player like that ends up available. Until then, you maintain the flexibility to get that player at the time he does become available. What you don't do is trade for a $20 million point guard who isn't even playing much better than Mike James right now (who makes about $500K). Also, what you are trading might seem like it's "not much", but it is SO MUCH MORE than that because you are taking on a multi-year, cap killing deal that prevents you from having any shot of getting a guy in FA and likely kills your ability to trade for a high salary player going forward unless said team wants Hill. The opportunity cost is the biggest cost of the trade. There isn't a team in this league right now who I think would honestly prefer Hill to $20 mill in extra cap space this offseason and next. That alone makes the trade inexcusable.
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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#679 » by jcsunsfan » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:04 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I hate defending Sarver as much as the next guy and I will probably need to shower a few more times today to wash off this guilt but Sarver seems to have been relatively hands off since McD's tenure. I feel like he took responsibility for the mistake he made with the impulse signings (Turkeyglue, Warrick, Childress) after Amare left. And as for the general dislike of Sarver from the NBPA because of his stand during the last CBA negotiation, I honestly feel like most NBA player really don't care about ownership. There's really two groups of ownership, the ones who are really well-liked/respected like Cuban, Lacob-Guber, Peter Holt and then you have pretty much everyone else. In the end, if a player is offered $12m to play for Sarver or $10m to play for Cuban, how much they "like" either of them is probably much lower on their consideration list than salary, role and plan for the team.

Someone on this board said this once regarding pushing Sarver out - better the devil you know, than the devil you don't


Yeah, Sarver was bad for a long time in part because he was a combination of acting like a kid in a candy store, yet stubborn and cheap all at the same time. Then he has no patience. I'm not really a fan but a new owner can be scary. I don't follow baseball closely so I was just reading about the Marlins and that sounds like a nightmare scenario for fans.

Right here? There is no light at the end of the tunnel. This pain is going to extend for years. This is a bunch of billionaires investing in a leveraged buyout. They don’t care if the Marlins are bad for the next 10 years. They really don’t. Franchise values keep going up and up. All they have to do is park it and wait. They own the ballpark, after all. So liquidate the assets to keep costs down. Are there baseball games involved? Doesn’t matter. Liquidate and sit on the nest egg. That’s all that needs to happen.

This is how a new ownership group comes in, looks at a 28-year-old MVP coming off a 59-homer season and thinks, ugh, there’s nothing we can work with here. This is how they can break up the best outfield in baseball without getting a single blue-chip prospect in return.


https://www.sbnation.com/2017/12/14/16774396/marlins-stanton-ozuna-trades-rebuild-jeter

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Dumb. Unkind. And potentially harmful. It can’t accomplish anything good.


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Re: Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4 

Post#680 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:43 am

jredsaz wrote:Tobias Harris is a player I would be all in on acquiring. 25, can shoot, very good efficiency. Continues to improve each year.


They could have snagged him for peanuts from the magic. Now Detroit isn't going to move him. This was the type of acquisition they missed on.
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