2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

[Mulhollanddrive]

Griffin had first hand experience with the LeBron blueprint, then saw the Giannis blueprint (more than 50% of recent championships) and then decided to recruit a bunch of non-shooters.

One thing Sarver got right (accidentally or on purpose) that some fans got wrong was wanting Griffin v Jones.

[bwgood77]

Cp3 has made JJ look good at his job. Outside of that trade, he's been just okay as a GM.

I wonder if we'd have CP3 if he didn't mess up the Brooks trade and have the wrong Brooks and then end up with Oubre. I imagine so, but it likely would have cost us someone else or another pick.

The Cam pick wasn't bad as well as the Payne pickup.

[bwgood77]

Let's make this real simple ...

1) if Jalen Smith had any potential to be a starter or significant role player the Suns would have kept him. Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

2) I have little doubt the Suns do way more research than the most ardent rosterbater. After all, they get to do the interview and in-person workouts plus check their background, etc.

3) I would not expect any less from Monty or Jones in terms of saying positive things about the kid. Of course they would, they want to include him in trades. Fact is, there may be issues we are all unaware of.

4) I would argue the Suns did commit to youth development. Johnson, Bridges, and Ayton were all 2nd and 3rd-year players plus TyShon and Jalen. The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

This is just saltiness about Sarver instead of recognizing this as a good business decision made by Jones.

Yeah, I know for a fact they take scouting seriously. JJ even mentioned they have started to sit closer when watching college games.

It definitely has nothing to do with the tax and Sarver. He certainly shouldn't have been behind Saric and Ayton and should have been a rookie starter or backup for a contender. Who needs training camp? He should have been ready to go after injury and COVID when he couldn't be with the team. Definitely worth moving on regardless less than a year after drafting him and doing all that in depth scouting you speak of that placed him ahead of other prospects well thought of.

You can't really defend Jones doing great research and scouting AND cutting him before a year is up at the same time. Doesn't work.

[bwgood77]

Cp3 has made JJ look good at his job. Outside of that trade, he's been just okay as a GM.

I won't completely argue with that but I'd also say he should get credit for hiring Monty and getting them from embarrassingly terrible to respectable the year before CP came. If that groundwork isn't laid no chance CP wants to come to Phoenix. Plus Jae Crowder, Cam Johnson, and Payne all played key roles in that run and were JJ moves.

No GM is perfect and the Smith thing is a big yikes miss but I certainly don't want him gone and you can do much worse.

It's funny I'd say about 90% of all sports fans think their teams GM and coach are bad, that's just sports.
Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

Yeah, I'm not one that usually blames the GM or coach for much, especially when the team has done well, and I think they have both done overall good jobs.

However, that doesn't mean they don't make a lot of mistakes. But that goes for any GM or coach, particularly ones with much experience at all.

To change the culture the way they did was huge. No one wanted to play in Phx and ESPN was laughing at us just like a year and a half ago.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Cp3 has made JJ look good at his job. Outside of that trade, he's been just okay as a GM.

I wonder if we'd have CP3 if he didn't mess up the Brooks trade and have the wrong Brooks and then end up with Oubre. I imagine so, but it likely would have cost us someone else or another pick.

The Cam pick wasn't bad as well as the Payne pickup.

That Brooks fiasco was Ernie Grunfield.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

Cp3 has made JJ look good at his job. Outside of that trade, he's been just okay as a GM.

I wonder if we'd have CP3 if he didn't mess up the Brooks trade and have the wrong Brooks and then end up with Oubre. I imagine so, but it likely would have cost us someone else or another pick.

The Cam pick wasn't bad as well as the Payne pickup.

That Brooks fiasco was Ernie Grunfield.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

I guess if we wanted Dillon Brooks I thought that was a better deal at the time anyway. He was on a rookie deal and I liked him. Oubre was expiring and wanting to get paid which is why the Wizards were trying to trade him.

[Mulhollanddrive]

15 games in 27 days we're going to know if this season is a yes or no pretty quickly.

[bwgood77]

15 games in 27 days we're going to know if this season is a yes or no pretty quickly.

Will still be a little early. if you are saying 15 more that is 20 games out of 82...less than 25% of them. Last year after 16 (over 22% of season), we were 8-8 and it wasn't indicative of how our season went and where we finished.

Now if we are 7-13 or worse than it won't look too good.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.

Here we are getting all uppity about the 10th pick. Jeez, it's a crapshoot when drafting. Don't forget the years and dollars given to Jackson (4), Bender (4), Len (5), and Chriss (8). The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Whilst I can agree that it's somewhat of a crapshoot in general, The risks are significantly reduced by actually doing in depth research, interviews, assessments of situational fit (how that prospects skillset/ abilities benefit the team scheme and dynamic). Yes, We really whiffed on those 4 players. But that again lends credence to further in depth evaluation, etc. For that level of investment. Otherwise, If you're unwilling to look beyond the consensus perception to determine true value, Then we should've just moved those picks for a more established known commodity.

The Suns cut bait because the in-house talent evaluation didn't see Jalen making the necessary steps. Pretty simple.

Did you see the video clip by Monty Williams? He even stated that Smith got put into a poor situation wherein the team trajectory changed. And as a result he didn't get playing time as a result. Also he stated that he was pleased with Smith's work ethic being in the gym everyday, putting in the work, and having shown some instances ( mentions a block) of him doing things that you don't see many players being able to do. To be clear, Smith ( as Jones himself mentioned) got dealt a poor hand. He didn't get a chance to even establish himself. This was very clearly about concerns over the potential luxury tax penalties of picking up his option. His 4.7 million possibly becoming around 10 or 11 million in incurred cost. Saver just doesn't have the financial resources to be comfortable with such risks. We have a poor cheapskate of an owner who can't play with the big boys in this league. Smith is just a casualty of this. Nothing more.

Sure hindsight says take Haliburton ... he could have been pinned to the bench behind Paul, Booker, Payne, Galloway, Moore, and Carter. He would have been in the same situation as Smith.

Absolutely agree with you on this! But still it's funny in that same premise because for everyone postulating that Smith was the wrong pick and these other prospects would've been better. Based upon what exactly. I mean if none of these guys would of recieved any more playing time than Smith either in the same situation of prioritizing veterans. And then suffering the same result as they'd have been making the exact same salary as Smith if selected at 10 instead! The right choice would've been to trade back for reduced salary commitment. And additional tradable assets. Or to simply trade the pick for a vet in the first place.

But we didn't do that at the time of the draft, BECAUSE we didn't have Paul or even consider that trade yet. We needed a guard and an athletic 3 and D 4 to offset Sarics' and Kaminskys' gross lack of athleticism and rim protection ( before Ayton took his defensive leap) later with Paul's mentoring ironically. But Smith was definitely a viable consideration. We really only selected him at 10 due to a rumor of Ssn Antonio coveting him at 11. So we didn't think he'd be there later IF we traded back. They chose Smith over Stewart/ Achiuwa and Bey due to his more advanced offensive skillset and rebounding/ shotblocking metrics. But it wouldn't matter who we picked, As once Paul got here, Our plans changed and we no longer prioritized youth development. So no one selected would've likely seen playing time behind vets. And still been declined due to cost concerns too.

Gonna throw out my rule-of-thumb ... if a draft pick can't average 11+ points by their second year they are probably a bust. The best we could have hoped for with Jalen was role-player and we have plenty of those.
To each their own on talent valuation I guess. But I'd argue it's pretty hard to establish productional value IF you are on the bench. And in garbage time wherein all the end of the bench scrubs, washouts or vet minimum options are all looking to promote themselves, You're obviously not very likely to get many good opportunities to even put up that stat line. To me a big part of development is in fact situation. As in Smith's situation with us once we got Paul in the trade. We abandoned our youth movement and development. Because rightfully so, We wanted to contend. In that context, Smith no longer recieved playing time. However, as a measurement of his potential and abilities, in a different scenario ( summer league) when he actually got his first legitimate playing time with actual minutes, He managed to put up around 16 points and 12 rebounds. So he averaged a double/ double in the time games that he actually got minutes. Then he comes back here to a situation wherein he'll recieve no playing time again in interest of vets with more experience. Does this mean he's a bust? Not at all! Moreover just a product of him not really getting an opportunity. And now he's a casualty of our owners fiscal impotence and our front office's negligence in being overzealous in giving Shamet a deal well beyond his percieved market value given the production that he's shown thus far.

If Smith signs onto another young team with good development and available minutes, I imagine his progression will make our decision to decline him look somewhat shortsighted. But it was done for the purpose of cost cutting ( Savers' biggest talent) to avoid a larger scale tax penalty.

Let's make this real simple ...

1) if Jalen Smith had any potential to be a starter or significant role player the Suns would have kept him. Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

2) I have little doubt the Suns do way more research than the most ardent rosterbater. After all, they get to do the interview and in-person workouts plus check their background, etc.

3) I would not expect any less from Monty or Jones in terms of saying positive things about the kid. Of course they would, they want to include him in trades. Fact is, there may be issues we are all unaware of.

4) I would argue the Suns did commit to youth development. Johnson, Bridges, and Ayton were all 2nd and 3rd-year players plus TyShon and Jalen. The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

This is just saltiness about Sarver instead of recognizing this as a good business decision made by Jones.

Agree to disagree!

if Jalen Smith had any potential to be a starter or significant role player the Suns would have kept him. Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

Lol! If Jalen Smith had any potential. Not sure what more you're really expecting from a rookie that didn't even get a summer league, or a preseason due to Covid. And then upon his first time with the team suffers an unfortunate ankle injury that prevents him from actually getting to integrate with the team early on. Maybe he can make a mixtape of him getting minutes in a game somewhere and give it to Monty, and try to sell them on actually giving him minutes to validate his worth?...lol.

IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, This last summer league was really his first legitimate chance at playing time and getting actual minutes to showcase his abilities. And all he did was average a freaking double/ double and make all summer league first team. Again in his first legitimate opportunity at playing time. Also, in college, This player whom you state lacks any potential just happened to average 17/ 12 /2 blocks on 36% from three, 75% on free throws,
62% TS, 59% EFG, 29.3 PER and a 12 BPM.
http://www.tankathon.com/players/jalen-smith
Lol at he'd be a starter or a significant role player on a team trying to be a playoff finals contender! I mean how many 2nd yr rookies do you know that are actually playing on playoff finals contender teams? Again, HOW EXACTLY is he supposed to establish that kind of value at the jump, when HE'S NEVER YET GOTTEN ANY PLAYING TIME aside from garbage minutes. And the suns have even themselves stated their proclivity to play experienced vets in an effort to maximize their short window of contention with Paul. How many rookies have actually earned a starting role or significant role on a team right out the gate WITHOUT GETTING ANY PLAYING TIME??? can you even name one player?

Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

3rd string player is a matter of opinion! Let's see how he turns out with actual minutes on another team before we just lump him in a 3rd string or vet minimum category k? Anyone's value can appear low when they're always riding the bench!
I do agree though that it's about the 10 million salary. So the LT penalty is lessened. But you know what? If we didn't be overzealous in overpaying Shamet by a large margin, Then Smith's salary wouldn't even be that much of a factor in the luxury tax concerns. And the 3rd string player prognostication is again a pretty poor valuation with such a small sample size, wherein he didn't even get a chance to play significant minutes to make an accurate determination of his potential role, etc. But I guess you'll have your opinion on this and I'll have mine.

I have little doubt the Suns do way more research than the most ardent rosterbater. After all, they get to do the interview and in-person workouts plus check their background, etc.

And yet they missed on all of : Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray, Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell, Alex Len over Giannis Antetekounmpo ( my personal favorite), Markieff Morris over Kwahi Leonard, And some might say that taking Ayton over Doncic was a colossal whiff too! Yeah! Good thing that you have little doubt about their in depth research as their drafting record clearly speaks for itself!!! and that's not to even mention Smith's draft, Wherein they somehow missed on all of Haliburton, Vassell, Isiah Stewart, Cole Anthony, Tyrese Maxey, Desmond Bane, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Immanuel Quickly, zeke Naji, Malachi Flynn, Xavier Tillman, Kenyon Martin Jr. Again, Good thing they're so good at their in depth research huh? But that's ok I guess. Everyone misses on talent sometimes, except for all the teams that obviously didn't after all.

I would not expect any less from Monty or Jones in terms of saying positive things about the kid. Of course they would, they want to include him in trades. Fact is, there may be issues we are all unaware of.

So are you then implying that Monty " salt of the earth" Williams a godly man would be disingenuous about his perspectives on a player just to cover up potential value concerns? I don't buy that at all. They've obviously maintained interest in him, But simply couldn't find the time to develop him. Otherwise they would've already looked to move him. But who were they going to tell to take a seat so that he could get take their minutes outside of garbage time??? Crowder?....Cam Johnson??? He got stuck in a bad situation on a contending team behind veteran depth. Simple as that. There's nothing to really cover up for beyond that. Otherwise,
They've had close to 2 years to include him in trades. Were they covering up his issues this whole time? Why not just trade him earlier then so you don't have to keep covering things up??
Again, it's about the money plain and simple! Otherwise they'd pickup his option. They didn't want to have his 4.7 million balloon up to over 10 million in luxury tax penalties, It is what it is.
This whole situation is because we have a unbelievably poor own by nba standards and it's 100% about the money!

would argue the Suns did commit to youth development. Johnson, Bridges, and Ayton were all 2nd and 3rd-year players plus TyShon and Jalen. The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

I do agree that early on they did commit to youth development! But let's be honest about that k. That's clearly because our franchise image was a complete joke! We couldn't attract anyone of significance with our cellar dweller record and Savers' reputation. As well as the league wide consensus on our franchise's front office instability. So what other choice did they really have??

The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

Completely different situations between these two examples. When we drafted Bridges and Cam Johnson, we obviously weren't a playoff team and didn't have Paul, Crowder, etc for Cam and Bridges to compete with for minutes. Furthermore, it's not even remotely similar for Bridges whom only had to compete with Oubre as our only other sf at that time. And Cam Johnson only having to really compete with Saric as Tariq Owens was barely a two way player for us. Cheik Diallo wasn't at all legitimate competition either. Smith got stuck behind much more significant depth in Crowder and upstart phenom Johnson as opposed to what they competed against, IF you can even spin that situation enough to claim they had competition for minutes. Also would again like to know what rookies ( WITHOUT RECIEVING ACTUAL PLAYING TIME) earned a starting role OR a significant role on a championship caliber team???

This is just saltiness about Sarver instead of recognizing this as a good business decision made by Jones

There are plenty of reasons to be salty about Saver aside from this situation. And the recognition of this being a good business decision is wholly premature at best UNTIL/ UNLESS it results in us resigning Ayton. And also extending Cam Johnson in restricted free agency. But I understand that you don't like the draft, Or rookies for that matter. So I'd expect this perspective honestly. And that's perfectly fine of course. But for me ( if you've read my recent posts) you'll know my " Saltiness " is really in the wasted asset that actually could've been moved sooner for added depth in our frontcourt which is obviously lacking. And if we had been proactive in moving him, Then we likely wouldn't even be having this situation.


Especially if we're serious about trying to repeat to the finals. As every other team is loading up as much as possible for supreme depth. So again, regardless of how you or I view Smith, For over a year ( since we determined we'd not give him minutes in interest of Crowder/ Cam ) for our run. I'm just saying that if we didn't plan on playing him and developing him, or paying him either, Then we should've moved him for further frontcourt depth early on. I mean what happens if McGee or Ayton goes down? What do we do then? If we planned on keeping him (for depth) we should've developed him. If not, We should've moved him when it's value was at its Apex opposed to sitting on him. That's how truly simple this premise really is!

[bwgood77]

TL,DR version?

[Ghost of Kleine]

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

[bigfoot]

Let's make this real simple ...

1) if Jalen Smith had any potential to be a starter or significant role player the Suns would have kept him. Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

2) I have little doubt the Suns do way more research than the most ardent rosterbater. After all, they get to do the interview and in-person workouts plus check their background, etc.

3) I would not expect any less from Monty or Jones in terms of saying positive things about the kid. Of course they would, they want to include him in trades. Fact is, there may be issues we are all unaware of.

4) I would argue the Suns did commit to youth development. Johnson, Bridges, and Ayton were all 2nd and 3rd-year players plus TyShon and Jalen. The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

This is just saltiness about Sarver instead of recognizing this as a good business decision made by Jones.

Yeah, I know for a fact they take scouting seriously. JJ even mentioned they have started to sit closer when watching college games.

It definitely has nothing to do with the tax and Sarver. He certainly shouldn't have been behind Saric and Ayton and should have been a rookie starter or backup for a contender. Who needs training camp? He should have been ready to go after injury and COVID when he couldn't be with the team. Definitely worth moving on regardless less than a year after drafting him and doing all that in depth scouting you speak of that placed him ahead of other prospects well thought of.

You can't really defend Jones doing great research and scouting AND cutting him before a year is up at the same time. Doesn't work.

It has everything to do with the tax. The kid is at best a third-stringer that would cost the Suns in excess of $10M next year. It would be huge mistake to keep him and limit the possibility of bringing in other players that can help the Suns. Damn, next year the Suns have the MLE and BAE again, albeit the MLE at a lesser amount. Those exceptions will have the same cap implications as Jalen's contract and I could see Sarver balking at paying to bring in an MLE or BAE in addition to keeping Smith. This is certainly related to cap management and that's why JJ did the right thing.

GOK can argue that we should have moved him for assets instead of declining the option. All fine and dandy but you have to find a team who wants to give up something to get Smith. Obviously, no other team was willing to take on his contract. And besides, what would JJ get in return, a second-round pick?? Right now our best hope is to make a decent trade to upgrade the roster before the February deadline and use his expiring salary to make the trade work.

All this whining about Sarver and JJ is absurd. What's more critical is what the current players are doing on the court. Poor Jalen isn't even good enough to get off the bench other than to cheer.

[bwgood77]

Let's make this real simple ...

1) if Jalen Smith had any potential to be a starter or significant role player the Suns would have kept him. Nothing wrong with getting rid of a 3rd string player and saving $10M at the same time. Third-string players make the vet min like Frank and Elfrid.

2) I have little doubt the Suns do way more research than the most ardent rosterbater. After all, they get to do the interview and in-person workouts plus check their background, etc.

3) I would not expect any less from Monty or Jones in terms of saying positive things about the kid. Of course they would, they want to include him in trades. Fact is, there may be issues we are all unaware of.

4) I would argue the Suns did commit to youth development. Johnson, Bridges, and Ayton were all 2nd and 3rd-year players plus TyShon and Jalen. The fact is, Jalen didn't show enough to be worthy of picking up his option. If he can't crack the rotation as Cam Johnson and Bridges did by their second seasons, that has to account for something. After all, plenty of rookies have contributed to championship-caliber teams.

This is just saltiness about Sarver instead of recognizing this as a good business decision made by Jones.

Yeah, I know for a fact they take scouting seriously. JJ even mentioned they have started to sit closer when watching college games.

It definitely has nothing to do with the tax and Sarver. He certainly shouldn't have been behind Saric and Ayton and should have been a rookie starter or backup for a contender. Who needs training camp? He should have been ready to go after injury and COVID when he couldn't be with the team. Definitely worth moving on regardless less than a year after drafting him and doing all that in depth scouting you speak of that placed him ahead of other prospects well thought of.

You can't really defend Jones doing great research and scouting AND cutting him before a year is up at the same time. Doesn't work.

It has everything to do with the tax. The kid is at best a third-stringer that would cost the Suns in excess of $10M next year. It would be huge mistake to keep him and limit the possibility of bringing in other players that can help the Suns. Damn, next year the Suns have the MLE and BAE again, albeit the MLE at a lesser amount. Those exceptions will have the same cap implications as Jalen's contract and I could see Sarver balking at paying to bring in an MLE or BAE in addition to keeping Smith. This is certainly related to cap management and that's why JJ did the right thing.

GOK can argue that we should have moved him for assets instead of declining the option. All fine and dandy but you have to find a team who wants to give up something to get Smith. Obviously, no other team was willing to take on his contract. And besides, what would JJ get in return, a second-round pick?? Right now our best hope is to make a decent trade to upgrade the roster before the February deadline and use his expiring salary to make the trade work.

All this whining about Sarver and JJ is absurd. What's more critical is what the current players are doing on the court. Poor Jalen isn't even good enough to get off the bench other than to cheer.

Yeah, that's what I said. It's about the tax...not all that other stuff. For the same reason they cut Jalen I doubt they use the MLE next year unless they dump more salary. If they get Saric back, now that they have Shamet, they have a legit 9 deep roster plus Nader at near the minimum. I imagine they get a few minimum deals, probably Kaminsky being one, and perhaps Payton if he will still take the minimum, and then have one spot for a 2nd round pick.

[lilfishi22]

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

The Suns have never been a good drafting team but it doesn't mean they don't put effort into it. They might have all the best scouts and talent evaluators but ultimately, it's usually one person or a small committee of people making the decision and as we've seen, we've made the wrong decisions time and time again. Also no team has a perfect draft record and I doubt the reason we have a horrible record of drafting is because we didn't put in the effort. We were a top lottery team for damn near a decade, you don't think the NBA draft is one of, if not the top priority for the Suns to get right?

I don't know you personally, I don't know what your day job is but I can guess it's not full time scouting. I can guess you're not going to games watching and interviewing prospects 2-3 years out from draft eligibility. I can guess you don't have the medicals nor had the discussions with agents and other people in the business about certain players. I can guess you're not putting your professional reputation and livelihood on the line with a correct or a poor scouting report/evaluation. I don't want to pile on you because it's not fair but the simple fact is that I can't agree with you at all that you or some guy on the internet doing scouting based on second hand reports is and will do a better job at talent evaluation when there are zero stakes in your wrong evaluations. There are scouting teams, with scouting professionals who do this for a living and provide the reporting and analytics to the decision makers. It's literally their day job, they live and breath it. That's not to say there haven't been internet dudes who contribute to scouting/draft websites who have gone on to make a living from it and even been called up into the big leagues to join NBA front offices but those a rare occurrences.

I can sit here all day and say Monty is doing a crap job or his timeouts suck but you put me on that seat and I guarantee it's going to be a disaster like damn near every single RealGM poster who has said anything bad about Monty. As much as I think I know about basketball, I've never coached at a high level and I certainly didn't play at the professional level or even at the college level. You and I, we're just dudes on the internet with too much time on our hands. You clearly love your young prospects and I don't blame you. They are exciting to watch develop and root for. I did the same thing with Amare, Dragic, Barbosa, Book, even the ones that became journeymen or out of the league like Chriss, Bender and Jackson. If we had all the time in the world (like OKC), I have no doubt we would've kept Smith on board because we invested a lot (a top 10 pick) into him but a tough decision was made and I'm sure it hurt Jones' reputation and pride to have to make the call but it is what it is.

[bigfoot]

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

1) Well you could be right about Jalen's potential. However, it may take a stint overseas like PJ Tucker and Cameron Payne for it to be realized. It certainly won't happen playing for the Suns who are trying to contend. In that light, the Suns did him a favor cutting him loose next year.

2) Since 1998 the Suns have made 35 selections in the first round. Of those only 7 have been worthy players ... Ayton, Booker, Amare, Marion, Nash, Finley, and Marjele. Only about 20% success rate in getting a high-quality starter. My guess is those are pretty typical numbers for most franchises. Your hindsight tends to point out who we passed on and that the Suns have made bad draft picks. Sure they have made lots of poor choices. Wants some proof ... https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/28/22597310/nba-draft-expectations. Look at the draft track record since 2004 chart. Second to last. But notice the important thing ... all the worst teams in that chart seem to have high draft picks that really bombed. All the best teams find the diamond in the rough later in the 1st or early 2nd round. Those teams usually have sustained winning seasons too. That's because it's about culture not high picks. The Suns lost that winning culture with McD who insisted on tanking. I know the draft is your thing but I could care less about jockeying for a draft pick by purposely tanking versus teaching the proper winning culture.

3) The fact is Smith can't crack the rotation over Crowder, Cam Johnson, Ayton, McGee, or Kaminsky. He HAS flaws in his game. Monty doesn't trust him because of those flaws. Monty wouldn't ever point out those flaws in pressers as the reason why he does not play Smith. Sure Smith is in a crap situation being on a playoff-caliber team. I still contend that there are plenty of examples where a rookie or second-year player contributed to a playoff team. If the player is good enough to crack the rotation he will. Jalen is not. It's too bad he's a hard worker but it hasn't paid off. Still, there might be problems that we are unaware of that made Suns' decision to let him go much easier.

4) Bridges and Cam did have to fight for minutes. Hell Cam is still trying to fight for a starting position over Crowder. The difference is they were better than the other players on the team and earned time. Smith is not. Contrast Bridges' and Cam's playing time to say, Josh Jackson, Chriss, and Bender. Those guys were gifted minutes that they did not earn. Those guys contributed to a losing culture. James Jones has eliminated the culture of gifted minutes and Smith could not crack into a winning culture. Too bad. You might look at him as an asset but there are two types ... positive and negative. You keep or find value through trades from positive assets and jettison negative assets. Smith might be a nice kid who works hard but he was a negative asset on the financial side.

Finally, whatever luxury tax-saving we get from Smith can be used on contracts for Ayton, Cam Johnson, the MLE, or the BAE. Again wasting $4.5M on a third-stringer is just plain stupid.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

The Suns have never been a good drafting team but it doesn't mean they don't put effort into it. They might have all the best scouts and talent evaluators but ultimately, it's usually one person or a small committee of people making the decision and as we've seen, we've made the wrong decisions time and time again. Also no team has a perfect draft record and I doubt the reason we have a horrible record of drafting is because we didn't put in the effort. We were a top lottery team for damn near a decade, you don't think the NBA draft is one of, if not the top priority for the Suns to get right?

I honestly don't disagree with anything that you've said in this post man. My response was in his saying that he's got no doubt that the suns do way more research than even the most ardent rosterbator. And to Bigs' credit, He may be right that they do?? But the truth is we (none of us) really know what their approach is on that! Nor do we legitimately know the level of research they commit to it either? As fans we can only at best ( absent of inside sources) make assumptions as to the fact. But if you look at there overall draft record and whiffs (just in the last 10 yrs alone) can you really say with utmost confidence that it's been reflective of deep intrinsic research/ analysis by comparison to the various top franchises that have consistently/ more frequently gotten value out of the draft? In that context it becomes definitively more debatable. But ultimately remains a matter of opinion as to their percieved level of commitment. I do believe for the record that obviously the draft is important to them. Or at least is has been up until the arrival of Paul. As it represents low cost salary investment for our financially restricted owner. But giving up on what could be our last chance at a high pick in less than a year of having him available for minutes, without even playing him enough minutes to accurately discern what he's capable of,
or his level of potential value speaks somewhatto the contrary! But again, my argument on that point was in that their draft record when compared to other franchises makes that postulation debatable. Or at the very least their prowess and approach.

I don't know you personally, I don't know what your day job is but I can guess it's not full time scouting. I can guess you're not going to games watching and interviewing prospects 2-3 years out from draft eligibility. I can guess you don't have the medicals nor had the discussions with agents and other people in the business about certain players. I can guess you're not putting your professional reputation and livelihood on the line with a correct or a poor scouting report/evaluation. I don't want to pile on you because it's not fair but the simple fact is that I can't agree with you at all that you or some guy on the internet doing scouting based on second hand reports is and will do a better job at talent evaluation when there are zero stakes in your wrong evaluations. There are scouting teams, with scouting professionals who do this for a living and provide the reporting and analytics to the decision makers. It's literally their day job, they live and breath it. That's not to say there haven't been internet dudes who contribute to scouting/draft websites who have gone on to make a living from it and even been called up into the big leagues to join NBA front offices but those a rare occurrences.

All scouts began somewhere!....lol.
But all joking aside, you're not at all wrong in your assertion to date. And ( again) to be clear, I'm not claiming or implying anything to the contrary, in that I'd do a better job than the experts that do this for a living, have years of experience in the business, and have infinitely better resources available than what's available to us currently. And yes, of course the stakes are different for a person that does this for a living as opposed to the fanbase in general.
But that shouldn't as a shield from possible discussions of accountability or opposing view points of the fanbase that feeds the team a share of its revenue. Opposing views and controversial perspectives and discussions go hand in hand with sports entertainment and with the suns being a media entity as well. Also, Please pile on, I take no offense to opposing views and differing perspectives as it's healthy promotion for a discussion board.
I realize that too many tenured posters, and mods such as you, BW, Big, etc. the majority my posts are found to be or considered lunacy or absurdity ( in bigs words lol) or comical at best to many. I take no offense though honestly. As again oppositional perspectives are to be expected. Some are able to see merit in my posts, others not so much! It is what it is. And I still hold you guys on this board: You Fish, BW, Big, Frank, etc. And of course everyone else's well in the highest esteem whether find a common ground on perspective not!

I can sit here all day and say Monty is doing a crap job or his timeouts suck but you put me on that seat and I guarantee it's going to be a disaster like damn near every single RealGM poster who has said anything bad about Monty. As much as I think I know about basketball, I've never coached at a high level and I certainly didn't play at the professional level or even at the college level. You and I, we're just dudes on the internet with too much time on our hands. You clearly love your young prospects and I don't blame you. They are exciting to watch develop and root for. I did the same thing with Amare, Dragic, Barbosa, Book, even the ones that became journeymen or out of the league like Chriss, Bender and Jackson. If we had all the time in the world (like OKC), I have no doubt we would've kept Smith on board because we invested a lot (a top 10 pick) into him but a tough decision was made and I'm sure it hurt Jones' reputation and pride to have to make the call but it is what it is.

Look lol I realize ( I really do) that I or many others out there couldn't realistically just step in and do a better job than Monty Williams (obviously absent of experience). But it doesn't necessarily take a basketball genius or tenured professional coach to recognize certain aspects of Monty's coaching that could be addressed or improved upon. It also doesn't take an extensive basketball coaching background for many people familiar with basketball to determine that when the opposing team is making runs and in a strong offensive flow ( rythym), That you can utilize timeouts accordingly to stop those runs or offensive flows at times. You'll see great nba coaches utilize this strategy all the time. Back in the day, crafty coaches even used to do it to disrupt free throw shooters on key / crucial possessions.

Now with Monty, He holds onto timeouts like their a winning Powerball ticket or something. But again, they're there to be used! It's not like they roll over and he can save them up for some magical moment when he can have our team catch a lead and then he can use them continuously until time expires and we win as a result! Or that he'd win an award for coach with the most remaining timeouts unused or something. So why not use them? Especially for a team notorious for constantly surrendering oppositional runs. Or perhaps for a team with an aging historical key floor general in need of rest as opposed to just sitting him on the bench for longer periods of time, whilst we collect turnovers as he sits and the game is in play? But this is merely a discussion board for fans. This is what we do with our too much free time!

But seeing as Monty is the head coach of this team's passionate fanbase that recently made it within two games of it's first ever nba championship, and the team and fanbase still hold high expectations for this season as well, it only stands to reason that his coaching will be a point of discussion controversial or complimentary. It just goes with the territory. Also, Yes I do have an affinity for young prospects, As for me they represent an investment in our long term projection and viability in addition to the importance of our current situation with our tenured vets. They also represent salary ballast for teams with high core payrolls ( us)! cost controlled tradable assets for potential necessary roster upgrades. These cost controlled assets are also more highly valued then a vet minimum option do to their untapped upside and the likelihood of them being able to actually outperform their contracts, resulting in additional value for the team. Also IF you can manage to hit on a underrated talent, Then you have a potential key contributor for your team on a very affordable cost controlled for at least 4 yrs (key here for high salary teams) contract. And possibly a blue chip trade piece for a star upgrade or a potential core piece to hold onto. I also really do understand everyone's argument as to why it was necessary to decline Smith's option due to Luxury tax penalties. I get it!

The issue that I have that everyone seems to keep ignoring is in that it's a wasted asset! We invested a 10th pick on Smith, Only to choose to not really play him or develop him. So we can't accurately make an informed determination of uis true value or potential. Then we simply sit on him for two seasons instead of looking to move him before having to consider committing to his 4.7 million salary. To be clear, I understand not wanting to pay the penalties on his salary. But this concern is in large part due to our own front office's negligence in jumping too quickly to sign Shamet to a 10 million dollar deal before he's even really established his value WITH OUR TEAM. If we instead would've simply paid him his market value of say 5-6 million dollars, Then Smith's salary would've likely been a minimal factor in tax consideration overall.

It's a wasted asset in that we did nothing yo develop him, offer legitimate minutes for proper evaluation of value, we didn't look to move him early on, he becomes a casualty of Shamets' overpay. And Shamet still has yet to even establish percieved value. That was my point of contention. Especially given our need for frontcourt depth considering Saric likely being out the entire season and maybe into the start of the playoffs even??? We need more frontcourt depth, not less. Smith absolutely could've been moved to some team for an additional veteran alternative. But if this is just about reducing tax penalties for Saver at the expense of our frontcourt depth, Then I just don't have sympathy for that. UNTIL I see the rests of all of the freaking discounts he recieved already from Paul opting in, Bridges taking a lesser conservative offer, not spending available resources in free agency, tax payer funded arena rebuild, etc.
I've also made the argument for all of the additional revenue he recieved/ will recieve from the additional games, playoff run to the finals, new online betting ( FanDuel/ Sportsbook) revenue, etc as providing a cushion to offset a modicum of the incurred penalties. Should those factors not be considered in this? Agree or disagree, it's very poor asset management ( IF they can't move him for a replacement) and a waste of what could be our last top 10 selection in a long time.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

That's the TLDR version?

All of those draft picks were pre-Jones, so kind of irrelevant. Jalen Smith, I agree, too early. I think trading Saric is a better way to save money. Anyway, that would likely cost us something.

As for your earlier notion of trading Smith, if other GMs felt he was a late 1st round or 2nd round pick, saw him not take the floor, etc, why would he have any trade value? Maybe a team like OKC just takes him. I doubt we get much for him, though it seems like they'd give us a second which I know you feel are very valuable.

Other questionable Jones moves....Ryan Anderson for Tyler Johnson...IIRC we could have not guaranteed Anderson who had less money in that case and gotten out of that big contract.

TJ Warren not only for nothing, but giving a draft pick or two for someone to take him. A trade offer Indiana couldn't believe was serious, per reports.

Melton, etc, for Carter.

The Paul move was nice, but apparently not something they pursued or came up with, but Paul gave Monty a call after watching the bubble and looking to move to Phx.

The Crowder signing ok, but 1 year too long, as well as the Saric signing, one year too long....you could see a mile away this would create a tax issue, one that already cost us Jalen.

At least put a team option on those two for year 3.

Just bad planning. And if rumors they wanted Ayton for 3 or 4 years at the max, that makes zero sense as well for long term planning. If they believe in his development enough you lock him up as long as you can. I can understand waiting until next summer, but not signing for less than 5 years.

[Bogyo]

^^Âlso, it is on the books that Book convinced Crowder to join on the phone. I'm sure JJ did his part with the agent and whatnot, but that wasn't 100% JJ's deal.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

1) Well you could be right about Jalen's potential. However, it may take a stint overseas like PJ Tucker and Cameron Payne for it to be realized. It certainly won't happen playing for the Suns who are trying to contend. In that light, the Suns did him a favor cutting him loose next year.

2) Since 1998 the Suns have made 35 selections in the first round. Of those only 7 have been worthy players ... Ayton, Booker, Amare, Marion, Nash, Finley, and Marjele. Only about 20% success rate in getting a high-quality starter. My guess is those are pretty typical numbers for most franchises. Your hindsight tends to point out who we passed on and that the Suns have made bad draft picks. Sure they have made lots of poor choices. Wants some proof ... https://www.theringer.com/2021/7/28/22597310/nba-draft-expectations. Look at the draft track record since 2004 chart. Second to last. But notice the important thing ... all the worst teams in that chart seem to have high draft picks that really bombed. All the best teams find the diamond in the rough later in the 1st or early 2nd round. Those teams usually have sustained winning seasons too. That's because it's about culture not high picks. The Suns lost that winning culture with McD who insisted on tanking. I know the draft is your thing but I could care less about jockeying for a draft pick by purposely tanking versus teaching the proper winning culture.

3) The fact is Smith can't crack the rotation over Crowder, Cam Johnson, Ayton, McGee, or Kaminsky. He HAS flaws in his game. Monty doesn't trust him because of those flaws. Monty wouldn't ever point out those flaws in pressers as the reason why he does not play Smith. Sure Smith is in a crap situation being on a playoff-caliber team. I still contend that there are plenty of examples where a rookie or second-year player contributed to a playoff team. If the player is good enough to crack the rotation he will. Jalen is not. It's too bad he's a hard worker but it hasn't paid off. Still, there might be problems that we are unaware of that made Suns' decision to let him go much easier.

4) Bridges and Cam did have to fight for minutes. Hell Cam is still trying to fight for a starting position over Crowder. The difference is they were better than the other players on the team and earned time. Smith is not. Contrast Bridges' and Cam's playing time to say, Josh Jackson, Chriss, and Bender. Those guys were gifted minutes that they did not earn. Those guys contributed to a losing culture. James Jones has eliminated the culture of gifted minutes and Smith could not crack into a winning culture. Too bad. You might look at him as an asset but there are two types ... positive and negative. You keep or find value through trades from positive assets and jettison negative assets. Smith might be a nice kid who works hard but he was a negative asset on the financial side.

Finally, whatever luxury tax-saving we get from Smith can be used on contracts for Ayton, Cam Johnson, the MLE, or the BAE. Again wasting $4.5M on a third-stringer is just plain stupid.

1- I don't really disagree with any of this man. I just take issue with not better utilizing Smith through development or as a tradable asset earlier on. I mean we held him for over two years without either investing in his development or looking to trade him once we determined that he wouldn't play. The longer he sat, The worse his trade value became. We did ourselves no favors in just sitting on an asset, whether contending or not. Perhaps as an expiring and with a light 2nd thrown in, We could look to get Craig back from the Pacers)? I just don't want him to become a wasted asset if at all possible!

2- You do make very solid points. And on the majority, I actually do agree with you and understand your perspective. With the draft, I agree on your points about culture ( I referred to it as situational factors or environment myself. But culture is a good term as well) playing a big part in a prospects odds for success. And I actually love what Jones has done for our culture. I also happened to be one of those that preferred to trade back in the draft ( per my posts) for additional assets at a cheaper salary scale, With interest on the likelihood of them outplaying their rookie contract. And I did like Smith myself along with McD and a few others. However, I didn't prefer him to at 10 in contrast to some of the other options we passed on later in the draft. To be clear, I'm not an advocate of tanking either for the reasons of apathy in culture of the teams. How it affects mindset and ambition. Moreover I'm passionate about trying to squeeze the most value possible out of whatever asset position we found ourselves in and hopefully profiting off of it either through a high end talent being developed at controlled cost. Or by building the value of said asset through development/ playing time ( if development is lacking) for a trade to upgrade the roster with an established player. I just wanted us to make the most out of a bad situation, as back then we very obviously weren't afforded other options as a free agency destination. So to me, Our most viable option was the draft. Which is why I was obviously so passionate about it. As many might notice, Now that we're contending, I haven't nearly ( if at all) posted very much about the draft. But I'm always looking for potential ways to explore upgrading our roster for sustainable contention post Paul era.

3- I can agree with you that I wouldn't expect or ask for him to play in front of any of Ayton, Crowder, Cam, or McGee. But aside from those options, Kaminsky ( outside of a few outlier performances is debatable). We obviously lost frontcourt bench depth with Saric going down. We didn't address it aside from McGee in free agency. We haven't been/ aren't really playing Hutchinson, Wainwright/ Nader ( whose kinda sucked lately) and even Kaminsky that much this season. The 10th e should've been more available minutes for Smith in that context I'd think. I mean we can't be doing ourselves many favors in overplaying our starters and McGee additional minutes this early on right?? Bench depth is only an asset IF you actually use it. We should've found more time for Smith to either develop him for Better bench depth, Or to promote him for potential teams for trade interests if we knew ( I'd hope we knew at least) that we didn't want to pay his salary with tax implications. Isn't too years a long time for a franchise to overlook or miss that detail?

I also get that Monty has trust issues with playing players. As evidenced by the majority of our bench not seeing playing time and becoming integrated early on with in game situations. Is that to our benefit as we get further into the season? Both he and D'antoni play short/ tight rotations. And of course favorites ( Shamet/ Crowder/ Saric). But in keeping those short/ tight rotations, aren't we also fatiguing our key rotation players down faster? At some point he needs to consider integrating our bench in more. Aside from just practice scenarios. I agree it's a crap situation for Smith, coach ( as you imply) doesn't trust him, And apparently he has flaws too ( not that there's really anyone on our team without flaws right??). But he hasn't gotten any playing time to show that he's getting past those flaws and developing. Again, How can a player establish on court value ( in game value) if he doesn't see the court or get playing time???


At some point, All n a vets ( even the really good ones) were rookies! How did they improve and become really good? Through actual playing time and development. But I get it. On a playoff contender, established, experienced veterans make more sense as they provide consistency without as many struggles and growth issues. I don't worry a out Smith getting better and making it somewhere. I worry about us wasting assets when we still don't genuinely have that many options for roster improvements ( aside from our core) due to cap constraints and a fiscally hamstrung owner. I just don't want us to waste any potential assets.

4- Just for clarity, back then ( not currently)who exactly were Bridges and Cam fighting with for actual minutes( per roster indication)? And again bearing in.mind that we weren't contending yet. So we were as you pointed out earlier still in the youth development stage pre Paul and Crowder? Correct me if I'm wrong, But upon looking, it seemed that apart from Bridges, The only other small forward listed on the roster was Oubre. And he pretty much manned the starting 4 spot with Saric at the backup 4/5 ( by committee with Cam Johnson). Beyond that, at the 4, Cam only had to contend with what exactly............. Tyriq Owens? So essentially, Bridges really had no competition at SF. A case could maybe be made for Johnson having to contend with Oubre and Saric. But post bubble, Daric became primarily designated as best positioned at backup 5. So was it really that much of a battle for minutes considering 3- backup 5 was shared by committee during that time?

Lastly, Again as previously said, IF that salary is absorbed for any of Ayton, Johnson, further roster depth, etc. Or in a trade, Then I'll take no issue with it. But that remains to be seen. And until it does, a proper determination cannot be justified. And to your point, as mentioned by us both. It's dependant upon how that 4.7 million salary ends up being utilized that will determine if it would've been a stupid investment or not. Our front office has talked a big game ever since Paul got here via trade. Talking about being a free agent destination as well as being players in free agency. With only resigning our own players and slightly overpaying for McGee ( which was solid), and then picking up vet minimum and two way cast offs ( which we don't even really play yet anyways) for our all in moves. So far our offseason has been lackluster at best. And it could be argued that our stumbling out the gate and barely .500 team record is a reflection of that. But I suppose only time will tell what we'll still look to do. We'll definitely reassess then.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

TL,DR version?

It was basically me disagreeing with his 4 points that he so kindly ( simplified) for my better understanding!

1- The Suns declined Smith's option because he has no potential. I disagreed in that there's no way they could accurately ascertain that so quickly, Because the sample size isn't there. And that it's impossible for him to establish value whenst he doesn't get a legitimate opportunity to play. He also implied that Smith was at best equivalent to Kaminsky and Payton as a 3rd string vet minimum player at best. I disagreed.

2- He had little doubt that the suns do way more research than basically any draft fanatics out there. I disagreed and replied with 5 of their biggest draft blunders in the last 10 yrs.
- Taking Dragan Bender over Jamal Murray.
- Taking Josh Jackson over Donavan Mitchell.
- Taking Alex Len over Giannis Atentekoupo.
- Taking Markieff over Kwahi ( extenuating circumstances considered).
- Taking Ayton over Doncic ( I'm actually ok with this one).
Also IF Smith is a bust like he's basically suggesting, Then that draft too. For all of the impact players that they passed on for Smith. And I stated that their draft record obviously speaks for itself ( sarcastically).

3- He implied ( in the video clip that I posted of Monty talking about Smith not getting a chance) that Williams and Jones would lie to hide Smith's faults in order to maintain percieved trade value, And that there are likely issues that us fans are apparently unaware of. I disagreed on that point as well. Replied with I don't at all think Williams or Jones would choose or need to lie about Smith just to maintain the illusion of percieved trade value. And that IF he watched the clip, He know that Williams himself commended his work ethic, and outlier ability as a shotblocker. Stating he witnessed Smith blocking a shot on a play that few other players could do.

4- he implied that the suns did commit to the youth movement with Bridges, Cam Johnson and Ayton. At which I agreed. Then he implied that both Bridges and Cam Johnson had to fight for / win minutes. I disagreed in the disparity of the situation, As back then we didn't have Paul or Crowder, And weren't even a playoff team. Also Bridges didn't have much competition at all that season with the only other SF being Oubre at the time. And C as m Johnson didn't have stiff competition either (aside from Saric perhaps) as the only other listed PF on the roster were Tyriq Owens, And maybe Chrik Diallo. So the situation wasn't nearly the same as Smith's current situation.

Lastly, pointed out that it's a wasted asset once they determined that they didn't have any minutes to develop him over playing vets with experience for their playoff run. And that they've basically sat on him for two seasons only to decline his option rather than to move him sooner rather than sitting him on the bench whilst his percieved trade value plummets. His continuing argument is that it was good business do to cost. My rey being in that the outcome depends on if the tax savings will actually be used towards resigning Ayton and Johnson during restricted free agency. Also in how they intend to maintain our frontcourt depth?

That's the TLDR version?

All of those draft picks were pre-Jones, so kind of irrelevant. Jalen Smith, I agree, too early. I think trading Saric is a better way to save money. Anyway, that would likely cost us something.

As for your earlier notion of trading Smith, if other GMs felt he was a late 1st round or 2nd round pick, saw him not take the floor, etc, why would he have any trade value? Maybe a team like OKC just takes him. I doubt we get much for him, though it seems like they'd give us a second which I know you feel are very valuable.

Other questionable Jones moves....Ryan Anderson for Tyler Johnson...IIRC we could have not guaranteed Anderson who had less money in that case and gotten out of that big contract.

TJ Warren not only for nothing, but giving a draft pick or two for someone to take him. A trade offer Indiana couldn't believe was serious, per reports.

Melton, etc, for Carter.

The Paul move was nice, but apparently not something they pursued or came up with, but Paul gave Monty a call after watching the bubble and looking to move to Phx.

The Crowder signing ok, but 1 year too long, as well as the Saric signing, one year too long....you could see a mile away this would create a tax issue, one that already cost us Jalen.

At least put a team option on those two for year 3.

Just bad planning. And if rumors they wanted Ayton for 3 or 4 years at the max, that makes zero sense as well for long term planning. If they believe in his development enough you lock him up as long as you can. I can understand waiting until next summer, but not signing for less than 5 years.

No, I just tried to summarize certain points after you mentioned the too long to read prompt. Trying to be helpful a bit.