Suns Offseason Thread 3: Spurned for the Spurs

[tdjm]

Suns fans are an amazing bunch.

It appears that a lot of you would want to keep Markieff around, just because.

Even though:
1. He is part of a felony assault case
2. He has called out Suns Fans for not supporting the team
3. He averages about as may technicals per game as assists.
4. He probably will call his brother on his cell phone during time outs.
5. He plays hard maybe every other game
6. He and the coach reportedly do not get along.
7. He is a poor rebounder
8. He seldom takes it to the hoop or gets put backs
9. He is too small for his position.
10. etc,etc

These are the same fans that were happy to see J Kidd leave town because of a couple of French fry's and were ecstatic when MDA left town while winning 58 games on average while he was coach.

Go figure.

Kieff has to be moved. That means he won't.

1. Don't care. KJ used his position as a famous athlete to sexually exploit underage girls, and everyone thinks he's super cool and now he's even a politician (USA! USA!). Barkley beat the **** out of people on the reg. A whole host of suns players got women in dubious positions and sexually assaulted them (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/after-midnighta-police-report-gives-distrubing-details-of-a-post-playoffs-sex-party-involving-some-of-the-phoenix-suns-6425358). Tucker drives drunk at irresponsible levels. Athletes are terrible, spoiled people who do terrible things. This is a basketball team, not a convent. I guess personally i became pretty apathetic/jaded about athletes years ago, so I have a hard time caring about two spoiled kids doing stupid spoiled kid bull ****

2. Suns game day atmosphere is terrible and a lot of the people who show up are little kids or old ass white people who think it's church and not a **** sporting event. They deserve to be called out. The Phoenix fanbase is seriously so **** whiny, god damn

3. nice hyperbole, but he's actually a really good passer for the PF position

4. ok

5. eh, i think a lot of people conflate being average to above average with not trying hard. i would say on average he tries pretty hard, he's just not an excellent player (even if he's good)

6. rumor. even if they don't like each other, i haven't liked all of my bosses. time to suck it up

7. well, yeah, heh. he does average like 1 stolen uncontested rebound per game where bledsoe muscles in and takes it to pad dem stats, though, so i just mentally subtract a rebound from bled and add one from keef

8. i would absolutely like to see him used more creatively in the pick and roll and going to the hoop for sure, especially because his ability to pull up for a shot at any point or pass to a big for a lob or a cutter makes him super dangerous. i'd rather he get back in transition than crash for putbacks, though

9. oh well

I think it's amusing that somehow you think the same people who want to keep keef are the same ones who wanted kidd gone? the people who wanted kidd gone are the same ones who want keef gone (low character low character wahhh) and pine for the days of colangelo's "high character" rosters (who were only high character when their misdeeds couldn't be swept under the rug, hah).

I don't expect Keef to play out all 4 years of his deal in a Suns uniform, I don't consider him a corner stone, but I do want to keep him because I am disinterested in spewing off talented players unless it really improves the team.

You neglected to list some of the positives that actually make people want to keep him. He actually passes to Len a LOT (and Brandan Wright, which will now be Tyson Chandler). He gets Warren and Goodwin involved in the offense (so he actually passes to and sets up all the youth on the roster I actually care about, which is nice). He's a player who can do a ton of nifty things on offense if he's used more creatively (HORNACEK STOP POSTING KEEF UP ON GUYS WHO AREN'T MISMATCHES AND LET HIM HANDLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FLOOR AND ON THE ELBOWS, IT'LL BE REALLY GOOD I PROMISE). He still has potential to develop the 3 pointer (go look at how long it took Sheed, Frye, Millsap etc. to actually get a viable NBA 3 pointer).

I want to trade him eventually, but only when it actually makes us better, and not because I'm butthurt that he avoids the media or gets in stupid scrums or gets technicals.

[bwgood77]

Suns fans are an amazing bunch.

It appears that a lot of you would want to keep Markieff around, just because.

Even though:
1. He is part of a felony assault case
2. He has called out Suns Fans for not supporting the team
3. He averages about as may technicals per game as assists.
4. He probably will call his brother on his cell phone during time outs.
5. He plays hard maybe every other game
6. He and the coach reportedly do not get along.
7. He is a poor rebounder
8. He seldom takes it to the hoop or gets put backs
9. He is too small for his position.
10. etc,etc

These are the same fans that were happy to see J Kidd leave town because of a couple of French fry's and were ecstatic when MDA left town while winning 58 games on average while he was coach.

Go figure.

Kieff has to be moved. That means he won't.

1. Don't care. KJ used his position as a famous athlete to sexually exploit underage girls, and everyone thinks he's super cool and now he's even a politician (USA! USA!). Barkley beat the **** out of people on the reg. A whole host of suns players got women in dubious positions and sexually assaulted them (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/after-midnighta-police-report-gives-distrubing-details-of-a-post-playoffs-sex-party-involving-some-of-the-phoenix-suns-6425358). Tucker drives drunk at irresponsible levels. Athletes are terrible, spoiled people who do terrible things. This is a basketball team, not a convent. I guess personally i became pretty apathetic/jaded about athletes years ago, so I have a hard time caring about two spoiled kids doing stupid spoiled kid bull ****

2. Suns game day atmosphere is terrible and a lot of the people who show up are little kids or old ass white people who think it's church and not a **** sporting event. They deserve to be called out. The Phoenix fanbase is seriously so **** whiny, god damn

3. nice hyperbole, but he's actually a really good passer for the PF position

4. ok

5. eh, i think a lot of people conflate being average to above average with not trying hard. i would say on average he tries pretty hard, he's just not an excellent player (even if he's good)

6. rumor. even if they don't like each other, i haven't liked all of my bosses. time to suck it up

7. well, yeah, heh. he does average like 1 stolen uncontested rebound per game where bledsoe muscles in and takes it to pad dem stats, though, so i just mentally subtract a rebound from bled and add one from keef

8. i would absolutely like to see him used more creatively in the pick and roll and going to the hoop for sure, especially because his ability to pull up for a shot at any point or pass to a big for a lob or a cutter makes him super dangerous. i'd rather he get back in transition than crash for putbacks, though

9. oh well

I think it's amusing that somehow you think the same people who want to keep keef are the same ones who wanted kidd gone? the people who wanted kidd gone are the same ones who want keef gone (low character low character wahhh) and pine for the days of colangelo's "high character" rosters (who were only high character when their misdeeds couldn't be swept under the rug, hah).

Solid response. I can't believe I've never seen that New Times article before.

[Sunsdeuce]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because we literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[MrMiyagi]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because he literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And, you know, he's a good player on a great deal. Would you rather have Tristan Thompson at nearly double the cost? How about Millsap? Thaddeus Young?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=youngth01&y1=2015&p2=millspa01&y2=2015&y3=2015&p3=thomptr01&y4=2015&p4=morrima02&p5=&p6=

[Revived]

If Suns want a 3 pt chucker at the 4 so badly, rather than give up assets for Anderson, why not just sign Mirza Teletovic outright?

Is he any good?

He's a Frye type player.

[Cutter]

Are we seeing a different player when we watch Alex Len? Because to ask some people on this board, he's the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon.

Right now, what I see is that he's a 6 and 6 player who is wildly inconsistent and injury prone. For me, he's running out of time and excuses to put it together, and I think the management feels the same way as signaled by signing Tyson Chandler.

I just don't get why people think Len is SO damn good. In his second year in the league Jake Tsakilidis averaged 7.3 and 5.6 in similar minutes to Len. So, why are we all over someone who hasn't even definitively proven himself to be better than Big Jake?

People aren't high on Len has based on what he has done so far, they are high on what he can do in the future. Len isn't going anywhere for the next few years, nor should he.

[bwgood77]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because he literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And, you know, he's a good player on a great deal. Would you rather have Tristan Thompson at nearly double the cost? How about Millsap? Thaddeus Young?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=youngth01&y1=2015&p2=millspa01&y2=2015&y3=2015&p3=thomptr01&y4=2015&p4=morrima02&p5=&p6=

That's the best reason to keep him. Anyone with his level of production signing a new contract at this point will make double what he makes.

But it also makes his contract valuable. If you can't use the additional cap space to sign big time players, it doesn't matter a ton to have it.

[Revived]

Reminds me of that stacked Lakers team that lost to the Pistons in 04.

How about that stacked Lakers team from 2 years ago?

The difference is that Laker team's leader and best player was a guy with a ton of ego in Kobe while the Spurs team leader is a guy that's maybe the most unselfish superstar in not just basketball history but sports history in Duncan.

And obviously the difference between Mike D'Antoni and Gregg Popovich makes a tad bit of difference as well.

[Sunsdeuce]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because he literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And, you know, he's a good player on a great deal. Would you rather have Tristan Thompson at nearly double the cost? How about Millsap? Thaddeus Young?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=youngth01&y1=2015&p2=millspa01&y2=2015&y3=2015&p3=thomptr01&y4=2015&p4=morrima02&p5=&p6=

I would take millsap over markieff. Honestly I don't give a damn about "good contract" crap. If that's your only argument as to why you keep him, you don't have an argument. Keeping a player because he "has a good contract" is exactly why bad teams don't improve.


I'm all for keeping him if the Suns offered free tacos for every markieff technical. Totally worth it.

[MrMiyagi]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because he literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And, you know, he's a good player on a great deal. Would you rather have Tristan Thompson at nearly double the cost? How about Millsap? Thaddeus Young?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=youngth01&y1=2015&p2=millspa01&y2=2015&y3=2015&p3=thomptr01&y4=2015&p4=morrima02&p5=&p6=

I would take millsap over markieff. Honestly I don't give a damn about "good contract" crap. If that's your only argument as to why you keep him, you don't have an argument. Keeping a player because he "has a good contract" is exactly why bad teams don't improve.

What exactly does Millsap do incredibly better than Markieff?

I swear, people on this board just loath anyone in a Suns jersey.

[Puff]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because we literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[RunDogGun]

Meh, the whole GSW team cried after every call, even whenever it was blatantly obvious they fouled. Probably because they had been fouling like that all year, but just didn't get called. To piggy back that, Draymond Green literally argued every call on him, or threw his hands in disgust, yet didn't get techs, and everyone here seems to love that guy.

So techs are a silly way to evaluate a player, for it really depends on the refs. Many players say and do the same things that Tucker, and the Morrii did, but didn't receive as many techs. It's tough to be on the short end of the stick in calls. Maybe Chandler's presence will change that.

[bwgood77]

Reminds me of that stacked Lakers team that lost to the Pistons in 04.

How about that stacked Lakers team from 2 years ago?

The difference is that Laker team's leader and best player was a guy with a ton of ego in Kobe while the Spurs team leader is a guy that's maybe the most unselfish superstar in not just basketball history but sports history in Duncan.

And obviously the difference between Mike D'Antoni and Gregg Popovich makes a tad bit of difference as well.

Oh, I understand that chemistry was horrible with LA and I don't think that will be a problem with SA...with that post I was just simply pointing out another stacked team that didn't work like the LA team in 2004 (which did actually work fairly well since they got to the finals).

I think if it doesn't work out in SA, as far as them being a championship team, it will be because Parker regresses quite a bit more and Duncan starts to seriously regress, which I didn't think is all that improbable.

[Puff]

The only reason to even think about keeping markieff right now because he literally don't have another power forward. But if you said you can have Ryan anderson and Amare in place of markieff....I would say where do I sign.

Markieff is a middle-income version of Rodney Rogers. Rodney was perfect as a sixth man not a starter. Exactly how I feel about Markieff.

Honestly markieff and his whining is old. He doesn't get a call, he whines and gets a tech.

Anyway to sum it up, the ONLY reason to keep keif right now because there is no other option unless we trade him for a power forward.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And, you know, he's a good player on a great deal. Would you rather have Tristan Thompson at nearly double the cost? How about Millsap? Thaddeus Young?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=youngth01&y1=2015&p2=millspa01&y2=2015&y3=2015&p3=thomptr01&y4=2015&p4=morrima02&p5=&p6=

That was before we dumped his brother for kicking that guy on the ground while Kieff looked on.

After all who is going to hold his Johnny when he uses the urinal.

[Sunsdeuce]

And, you know, he's a good player on a great deal. Would you rather have Tristan Thompson at nearly double the cost? How about Millsap? Thaddeus Young?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=youngth01&y1=2015&p2=millspa01&y2=2015&y3=2015&p3=thomptr01&y4=2015&p4=morrima02&p5=&p6=

I would take millsap over markieff. Honestly I don't give a damn about "good contract" crap. If that's your only argument as to why you keep him, you don't have an argument. Keeping a player because he "has a good contract" is exactly why bad teams don't improve.

What exactly does Millsap do incredibly better than Markieff?

I swear, people on this board just loath anyone in a Suns jersey.

For one he doesn't get an insane amount of techs, better post game, better position rebounder. That's all I ask for.

And there are really only 3 players in the Suns I do not enjoy watching. Bledsoe (low BBIQ is nausating), Tucker (see Bledsoe), and markieff (for his attitude, "it's not me it's them" attitude). Everyone else I really enjoy.

And btw, I was ready to accept keeping Bledsoe if it meant getting LMA.

[Moochthemonkey]

Suns fans are an amazing bunch.

It appears that a lot of you would want to keep Markieff around, just because.

I don't see it that way. Attitude aside, he is a solid player on a solid contract and there is no need to dump his contract, just because.

There are valid reasons for trading him or not trading him for a player like Ryan Anderson...better yet, a first or Channing Frye back. I do not expect much clamor would occur on this forum if such a trade was to happen.


Even though:

1. He is part of a felony assault case

He was charged, but we do not know to what extent he was involved in the assault. There is no right to spew libelous rancor.

2. He has called out Suns Fans for not supporting the team

I have no problem with this. Markieff didn't say anything vulgar or anything bad, or even untrue for that matter. Many local Suns fans these days are very casual, many of the tickets are sold to rich folk who don't have a genuine interest in the team. Fans offended by his statement than they need to grow thicker skin.

3. He averages about as may technicals per game as assists.

lol, he would be ejected every game and then some. We can all agree he needs to tone down his complaining.

The new locker room may change the attitude.

4. He probably will call his brother on his cell phone during time outs.

lol

5. He plays hard maybe every other game

true, although that could be said for the most of the team last year. the new locker room may encourage a more consistent effort regarding the team as a whole, we'll see

6. He and the coach reportedly do not get along.

[citation needed]

7. He is a poor rebounder

True, but 6 RPG is an acceptable # with the above average rebounders of Chandler, and Bledsoe and Tucker per their position

8. He seldom takes it to the hoop or gets put backs

See above + stretching the offense

9. He is too small for his position.

This is not true, not to mention a benefit when playing small ball, especially in this league today.

These are the same fans that were happy to see J Kidd leave town because of a couple of French fry's and were ecstatic when MDA left town while winning 58 games on average while he was coach.

Go figure.

[citation needed]

[Sunsdeuce]

http://arizonasports.com/41/1847868/Report-Suns-potentially-targeting-Ryan-Anderson-and-looking-to-deal-Markieff-Morris

"Hearing the Suns are trying to deal Markieff Morris, who has an affordable 8M/yr deal. He and Hornacek don't get along, plus Marcus is gone.
12:48 PM - 6 Jul 2015"

[tweet]https://twitter.com/schultz_report/status/618129371119886341[/tweet]

[jredsaz]

If we replace Kieff with a quality stretch 4 in the starting lineup we will compete for a playoff spot. It is all about Horys system.

I think its also about rounding out the roster:
back up PG
a backup 4 like Amare
back up shooting guard like Mo Williams

I think this team next year will be better without the turmoil of the three guard rotation that didn't work; guys like Thomas and Mook Morris not in the locker room and the addition of Chandler in the locker room and on the court. Gambo is not realizing the value Tyson Chandler brings. I think he brings great value to the court - anytime you can rebound, defend and get extra possession on the offensive glass - that is huge. And when you look at RoLo get 54/4; Jordan getting 80/4 and Chandler - I get he is older but I would definetly take him over RoLo. As for Jordan, if you can't be on the court the last 6 minutes of a game - you lose value in my book for what he is getting paid. I know Howard is making a boat load too but Deandre was in the right role in LA. I don't see him as option number 1 on offense.

Ryan has a couple days until July 9 - hopefully can maximize that 8m of cap space as the only way to use it is before signing Knight.

I agree but it starts with a legit stretch. Essentially replacing Frye with Thomas last year threw the team off track. The 13-14 lineup of Dragic, Bled, Tucker, Frye, and Plumlee executed an effective system that won a lot of games in a Western Conference that I could argue was better that the WC the Suns will face this year. I get that Knight is not Dragic but their skill set is similar. I truly believe a team constructed with Bledsoe, Knight, Tucker, Legit Stretch, Chandler could win enough games to get into the 6-8 position because of the SYSTEM.

I think making the playoffs is important if we are actually going to attract one of these top line FA's next off season. I would even consider taking back Frye in a salary dump to accomplish it. At some point McD needs to build a team. It has been 5 years, we are too good to tank effectively and we didn't sell out at the draft to implement a tank. Therefore, we need to be aggressive and sacrifice a lower level longterm asset ($8 million in cap space, Cleveland 1st, Goodwin, ect.) to start winning now.

[blee732]

That's the best reason to keep him. Anyone with his level of production signing a new contract at this point will make double what he makes.

But it also makes his contract valuable. If you can't use the additional cap space to sign big time players, it doesn't matter a ton to have it.

Yup, free cap space is not the same for every team/situation. GIven our inability to snag top FAs in recent years and the lack of realistic upcoming options, having a cap-friendly deal for us is less valuable than it is to another team.

So, if we can trade Keef for an upgrade I don't think the performance-to-pay ratio is particularly relevant (unless the difference is extreme). Problem is, there isn't really anybody that fits that who is also realistically available.

My vote is to keep Keef for now. I think he fits well with Chandler on both ends. I also think (and seems others do as well) that Mook was more the instigator, so hopefully Keef gets over the separation and grows b/c of it. Chandler's leadership is key here, but I think they need another leader in the same vein (maybe Knight can be that guy?) to really change the culture.

[MrMiyagi]

I would take millsap over markieff. Honestly I don't give a damn about "good contract" crap. If that's your only argument as to why you keep him, you don't have an argument. Keeping a player because he "has a good contract" is exactly why bad teams don't improve.

What exactly does Millsap do incredibly better than Markieff?

I swear, people on this board just loath anyone in a Suns jersey.

For one he doesn't get an insane amount of techs, better post game, better position rebounder. That's all I ask for.

And there are really only 3 players in the Suns I do not enjoy watching. Bledsoe (low BBIQ is nausating), Tucker (see Bledsoe), and markieff (for his attitude, "it's not me it's them" attitude). Everyone else I really enjoy.

And btw, I was ready to accept keeping Bledsoe if it meant getting LMA.

Millsap is marginally better than Kieff at rebounding and posting up. Your argument is "I don't like him arguing with the refs!".....