Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[bwgood77]

Disagree so much with the "Kieff at best is a 6th man but Mirotic is a franchise building block" rhetoric.

Kieff at best is a dynamic offensive starter who plays average D. Mirotic is all of like 18 months younger and has proven drastically less at this level. He shot 31% from 3 last year, so you can't even really say the 3 ball is an advantage for him either.

Mirotic is a better player than Markieff Morris overall.

Sure, Markieff has good mid range game, but Mirotic is no slouch there and he is a better long range shooter who is still developing.
Mirotic also has a higher ceiling still, since he wasnt used by Thibs well. He can actually dribble a bit, moves well, skilled and overall a smarter player.. all via eye test and I'm comparing 20+ games between the two.

And I'm sure some Suns fans here who have seen Mirotic enough times as much as Markieff can say Mirotic's ceiling is higher. And with the minutes and role Markieff got from the Suns.. Mirotic would put up BETTER numbers offensively and on the boards...

[NavLDO]

With the salary cap going up, Gallinari is totally worth it, especially for the Nuggets. I thought they actually got him at a great price. Some people on here thought he was gonna get a max contract and the Nuggets got him way below what the new max will be. Plus can somebody tell me how many times Gallinari has destroyed the Nuggets fan base, been ejected from games more than once, or been accused of aggravated felony assault? Did not think so.

How many times has Markieff had multiple 40 point games in a season. Oh yeah, none. Gallinari is only about one year older than Markieff so age is not a factor.

How many seasons has Gallinari actually played the entire season? Oh yeah, as many as he's missed entirely--ONE.

How many double digit rebound games did Gallinari have last season? Oh yeah, none.

Gallinari has, to date, averaged 49 games played per season. He is averaging $15.2M a year over the next 3 years. That's $310K per game. Kieff has played every game for 3 seasons. At $8M per, that equates to $98K per game, or less than 1/3 the cost--Kieff is NOT just 1/3 the player--if we were doing percentages, I'd say about 3/4 the player.

I don't dispute that Gallinari is better overall player than Kieff, but at least you get what you are paying for with him. Gallinari has not proven the ability to stay healthy throughout a season, other than his 2nd season, and that was over 5 years ago.

I'm sorry, but the Nuggets are taking a HUGE gamble at that price. Maybe he lives up to it, but if I'm a GM, I'm not banking $15M per on his track record.

[Saberestar]

I think Mirotic would play great here like our starting PF. He only needs to add strength and experience, and with last year already under his belt he is gonna be a way better player next season. He is under contract on a bargain price for two years and he is a good locker room guy.
It doesn't matter the percentage of his shots, Mirotic is an amazing shooter that needs always big attention when he is around the 3p line.
He is a better 3p shooter than Markieff, it's not even close. He is similar to Teletovic on that regard.

But I don't think Mirotic is on the trade block (probably Taj Gibson) and he has too much potential to trade him.

[RunDogGun]

I know many here don't like Markieff, but let's not make up lies to fulfill your hate. Mirotic shot worse from three last year than Markieff, but not by much at all 0.316 to 0.318. So no one can say that Mirotic is a way better three point shooter, nor can someone say it isn't even close, because clearly it was super close.

Oh well, resume the hate.

[Saberestar]

I know many here don't like Markieff, but let's not make up lies to fulfill your hate. Mirotic shot worse from three last year than Markieff, but not by much at all 0.316 to 0.318. So no one can say that Mirotic is a way better three point shooter, nor can someone say it isn't even close, because clearly it was super close.

Oh well, resume the hate.

It isn't all in statistics. Mirotic is automatic from distance, his stroke is quick and if you are not near him defensively he came make 3 or 4 threes on a row easily. Markieff is more of a mid range player.

I think that if you watch Mirotic playing, the eye test would tell you that he is a real good 3p shooter and he really draws constant attention from defenders... and the other one (Markieff )is a decent ocassional 3p shooter. A ton of difference here.

[RunDogGun]

I know many here don't like Markieff, but let's not make up lies to fulfill your hate. Mirotic shot worse from three last year than Markieff, but not by much at all 0.316 to 0.318. So no one can say that Mirotic is a way better three point shooter, nor can someone say it isn't even close, because clearly it was super close.

Oh well, resume the hate.

It isn't all in statistics. Mirotic is automatic from distance, his stroke is quick and if you are not near him defensively he came make 3 or 4 threes on a row easily. Markieff is more of a mid range player.

I think that if you watch Mirotic playing, the eye test would tell you that he is a real good 3p shooter and he really draws constant attention from defenders... and the other one (Markieff )is a decent ocassional 3p shooter. A ton of difference here.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. Opinions don't matter when we are talking about a measured stat.

[AtheJ415]

Disagree so much with the "Kieff at best is a 6th man but Mirotic is a franchise building block" rhetoric.

Kieff at best is a dynamic offensive starter who plays average D. Mirotic is all of like 18 months younger and has proven drastically less at this level. He shot 31% from 3 last year, so you can't even really say the 3 ball is an advantage for him either.

Mirotic is a better player than Markieff Morris overall.

Sure, Markieff has good mid range game, but Mirotic is no slouch there and he is a better long range shooter who is still developing.
Mirotic also has a higher ceiling still, since he wasnt used by Thibs well. He can actually dribble a bit, moves well, skilled and overall a smarter player.. all via eye test and I'm comparing 20+ games between the two.

And I'm sure some Suns fans here who have seen Mirotic enough times as much as Markieff can say Mirotic's ceiling is higher. And with the minutes and role Markieff got from the Suns.. Mirotic would put up BETTER numbers offensively and on the boards...

Okay. Few points here: Markieff has an elite mid-range game. Not just good. Like top 3 in the entire league mid range game. Mirotic is nowhere near what he is in that area. Mirotic also went through a 3 month shooting slump from 3. Now, that could be that he went through a once-in-a-career type of slump, or it could be that he's not a great 3 point shooter yet. 31% is bad. Kieff right now can hit that mark. I think that 1 year in the league is too early to proclaim things either way.

I've not mentioned raw point or rebound totals even once, so not sure what minutes has to do here. I think any analysis that doesn't factor in efficiency on a per minute or per usage level is useless, so I completely agree with you there if someone was to make such an argument. Kieff, however, has received 6th man of the year votes at age 25. Mirotic will turn 25 this season. He'll be in a bench role, and frankly if he can't beat out Gibson for that primary roll then he's not as good as Kieff was at 25 anyways. Is he going to be that good this year? To me that's an open question, and I don't see Mirotic as someone with such a high athletic ceiling that his potential is obviously better than Kieff's going forward.

I think if Kieff can shoot the 3 ball at 33-35%, I'd rather keep him at his deal. There's no reason Kieff can't. People certainly improve in those areas at his age, particularly when it's a focus, and McDonough believes he can be that type of guy.

[AtheJ415]

I think Mirotic would play great here like our starting PF. He only needs to add strength and experience, and with last year already under his belt he is gonna be a way better player next season. He is under contract on a bargain price for two years and he is a good locker room guy.
It doesn't matter the percentage of his shots, Mirotic is an amazing shooter that needs always big attention when he is around the 3p line.
He is a better 3p shooter than Markieff, it's not even close. He is similar to Teletovic on that regard.

But I don't think Mirotic is on the trade block (probably Taj Gibson) and he has too much potential to trade him.

Teletovic hits a drastically higher 3 point % than Mirotic. Mirotic shot 31% from 3 last year. He went through 3 months where he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from 3. He's done nothing to show that he's an amazing shooter. The percentage of shots hit from 3 definitely matters in determining how good a 3 point shooter you are, as well as attempts. Hitting below 33% on any number of attempts is bad. Your team would be better off if you stopped shooting a that point. Even at 32% maybe you can make the argument for a bad offensive team, but not 31%. He's played 1 season in which he spent half of that season shooting well and half shooting awfully. You can't just disregard that awful half.

Kieff is on an even better bargain contract for the next 5 seasons, so the 2 year bargain for Mirotic actually isn't in his favor imo. Because he will hit FA under the new cap and earn 8 figures probably.

I agree Gibson is the guy they want to move.

[AtheJ415]

I know many here don't like Markieff, but let's not make up lies to fulfill your hate. Mirotic shot worse from three last year than Markieff, but not by much at all 0.316 to 0.318. So no one can say that Mirotic is a way better three point shooter, nor can someone say it isn't even close, because clearly it was super close.

Oh well, resume the hate.

It isn't all in statistics. Mirotic is automatic from distance, his stroke is quick and if you are not near him defensively he came make 3 or 4 threes on a row easily. Markieff is more of a mid range player.

I think that if you watch Mirotic playing, the eye test would tell you that he is a real good 3p shooter and he really draws constant attention from defenders... and the other one (Markieff )is a decent ocassional 3p shooter. A ton of difference here.

If you shoot 31% from 3, you are not automatic from distance! In fact, what you are doing is automatically helping the other team win.

And Jason Kidd had a fundamentally great 3 point shot that he couldn't hit for most of his career. I agree the eye test matters in determining raw skills, such as release timing, defensive attention, etc., but the ability to hit a 3 mostly comes down to how many you actually hit so long as the sample size is large enough. You could argue we don't have enough of a sample for Kieff, but Mirotic took a ton of 3s and simply missed more of them than even half of the league. He was statistically a below average 3 point shooter.

[letsgosuns]

I would rather have Air Bud on the Suns instead of Markieff.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I would rather have Air Bud on the Suns instead of Markieff.

congrats. You win this week beating a dead horse award!

[Two Time]

Suns have a new alternate uni this season. See all black on far right:

1. At least Phoenix's aren't sleeved.

2. I hate the Suns affinity for black. The team color's are purple & orange.
I know its only an alternate, so on its own a black alternate isn't terrible. Its just all the other black thats already piled on the team that has me just done with the whole thing

3. The "PHX" thing was cool for a while. I'm over it now.

[King4Day]

I want the nash Era jerseys back. Not a fan of the current ones

[matt131]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DWolfsonKSTP/status/624297250316009472[/tweet]

what?

[suns91fan]

Just to back up Markieff's midrange game with some stats:

http://bkref.com/tiny/2vfzH

You know your midrange game is elite when there is only one NBA player in front of you.

[NTB]

Lol why Justin Hamilton?

[MrMiyagi]

Just to back up Markieff's midrange game with some stats:

http://bkref.com/tiny/2vfzH

You know your midrange game is elite when there is only one NBA player in front of you.

Yeah, but his biggest problem is his name is Markieff Morris, and he plays for the Suns. Can't be elite at anything with those two criteria.

[MrMiyagi]

Why are we talking Mirotic? We're getting our stretch big with Justin Hamilton - 32.5% from 3 on 40 attempts, dude's a stud.

[TeamTragic]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DWolfsonKSTP/status/624297250316009472[/tweet]

what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Ax-DEsF0

Are we signing players that schooled our team last season?

[Two Time]

Just to back up Markieff's midrange game with some stats:

http://bkref.com/tiny/2vfzH

You know your midrange game is elite when there is only one NBA player in front of you.

Yeah, but his biggest problem is his name is Markieff Morris.

That really is the biggest problem. Ungreen that post.