The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[AtheJ415]

Physique wise your right ... but Towns basketball skills and defensive motor were way better in college against more difficult college teams. UofA had a cream puff schedule this year... 63rd hardest in the nation versus #5 for Bamba's team and #18 for Bagley. You have to look at these things and the size advantage Ayton had against these weak teams that won't be there in the NBA.

This is just way over thinking this. You look at the tools he has. No one since AD has come out with those tools. You look at his skill set. The footwork, the athleticism, the post work, the strength, the jumper, the rebounding. I am not worrying about SOS. There is tape of him against better teams. Doncic is a great player, but this is not really that hard of a decision.

I think this is an oversimplification. It's not just about physical tools. AD had all the footwork, athleticism etc etc and he was also already an elite defensive prospect. Ayton has good footwork, elite physicals, solid post work and rebounding but his defense wasn't impressive when he should've been considering the tools he has.

True, but defense isn't exactly a set thing at his age. Look at Ben Simmons, who played some of the laziest D I had ever seen at LSU and is now a near All-NBA defender at times.

[Kerrsed]

Backing up his truck <beep beep beep>,

Truck driver: excuse me sir, where do I drop these?

Jmac1: Man, I have been waiting for you for almost a week, glad you finally made it. drop them here in this forum:

Trucker: Okay, there are a lot of them bub. Who is this guy anyway?

Former UCLA and St. John’s head coach Steve Lavin has seen his fair share of college basketball talent over the years. However, he’s of the belief that Arizona freshman center Deandre Ayton is a transformational type talent that will change basketball.

“He’s going to transform the way we look at the center position,” Lavin told DieHards.

"He's a monster," Barkley said, via TMZ. "He's the best college player I've seen in the last 20 years. He's unbelievable."

“You’ve seen Deandre Ayton, he’s ridiculous,” Bilas said to the panel. “He’s Hall of Fame good.”

It’s Ayton’s raw ability that has the ESPN analyst advocating for his top selection.

“He has breathtaking talent and athleticism,” Fraschilla said.

“You just look at him and say ‘oh, my God, I believe in evolution,’” Walton said during UA’s win over Texas A&M in Phoenix in early December. “He’s the best player at this level since Shaquille O’Neal.”

ESPN’s Max Kellerman echoed Barkley’s statements, tagging Ayton as another “unicorn” to be added to the NBA.

“DeAndre Ayton of Arizona. 7’1, 250. Chisled, fast, quick, and nimble. Touch around the basket with a nice shooting stroke with range. Shaq with a shot.”

Stephen A. Smith says Phoenix shouldn't entertain any trade deals and should take DeAndre Ayton No. 1

I like this post.

So many experts talking about Ayton in such high regards and have him as the top player in the draft.

Watch on YouTube

I watch this video almost daily to put a smile on my face. S**t like that shows that Doncic isnt the only guy that can make the rest of the players better. As deadly as he is on offense, running the P&R with Booker, teams will be damned if they do and damned if they dont. The more dominant he is on the inside, the more open looks the rest of the guys will get. Having a smart Big like him setting screens and picks to get Jackson or Booker open, its going to be BEAUTIFUL.

[lilfishi22]

This is just way over thinking this. You look at the tools he has. No one since AD has come out with those tools. You look at his skill set. The footwork, the athleticism, the post work, the strength, the jumper, the rebounding. I am not worrying about SOS. There is tape of him against better teams. Doncic is a great player, but this is not really that hard of a decision.

I think this is an oversimplification. It's not just about physical tools. AD had all the footwork, athleticism etc etc and he was also already an elite defensive prospect. Ayton has good footwork, elite physicals, solid post work and rebounding but his defense wasn't impressive when he should've been considering the tools he has.

True, but defense isn't exactly a set thing at his age. Look at Ben Simmons, who played some of the laziest D I had ever seen at LSU and is now a near All-NBA defender at times.

The problem with defense is that we've seen great defensive big man prospect from college not having the same impact in the NBA but when was the last time a poor defensive big man prospect improved to become a rim protector in the NBA? It's not something I want to bet on

Wings and guards are more likely to improve their defense over time when paired with big who is a rim protector because at that point it comes down to defensive IQ and funneling the attacking player into the help. Simmons has Embiid who's a DPOY candidate. Ayton will be the last line of defense and that's a scary thought.

[thamadkant]

What Ayton needs to do is learn how to draw fouls like Embiid does .. Even if he has to flop a bit.


And the defense... He needs to take risks and leave his man to help his team mates...


Passing wise he's good already... He knows how to use double teams... He's not a black hole..

[Kerrsed]

If Luka and DeAndre can get along, so can all of us!

[8on]

It seems McD is open to.....well, he’s open to everything. If a team offers him a Big Mac for #1, he’ll consider it.

Watch on YouTube

[Mulhollanddrive]

http://arizonasports.com/story/1529538/phoenix-suns-gm-ryan-mcdonough-suns-four-2018-draft-picks/?show=comments

He said it’s unlikely the team will trade the pick, but he didn’t rule it out.

[Qwigglez]

There have been such stupid arguments on both sides of this Ayton-Doncic debate that I don't think Phoenix fans deserve good basketball, because the majority don't even know what that is.

**** it. Take LiAngelo Ball 1st overall. Let Ayton and Doncic have fans who actually appreciate their talent.

Clearly you are forgetting one thing. Lavar simply won't allow LiAngelo Ball to play for the Suns. For this reason, we can't take him 1st overall, as much as we all want to.

[Mulhollanddrive]

What concerns me about Doncic is that it's considered he played well I would have rather his games be considered poor and that he had more upside. In Euroleague playoffs he averaged 14 / 5 / 3 on 35% FG.

[Qwigglez]

If Luka and DeAndre can get along, so can all of us!

Nope. Could you imagine them being at the gym and Ayton says "Congrats man!" with slight emotion (emphasized by the one exclamation point) and gives Doncic the awesome hang loose signal. Then Doncic yells back at him with a "Thanks man!!!" clearly a sign of overconfidence but then proceeds to do an over-the-top double bicep flex? It's like Doncic is trying to one up him. Am I the only one that sees this?!?!

[thamadkant]

Just watching how when a team is cold from outside or well defended that they struggle to score, this is the downfall of small ball. And only the very best shooters with defensive abilities come out of it on top.


The way to beat this small ball era is to have a dominant inside scorer surrounded by shooters who can defend, so when the scoring dries from outside you go inside to a player who dominates one on one. Someone who will punish a small defender.



Only way....

[thamadkant]

If Luka and DeAndre can get along, so can all of us!

Nope. Could you imagine them being at the gym and Ayton says "Congrats man!" with slight emotion (emphasized by the one exclamation point) and gives Doncic the awesome hang loose signal. Then Doncic yells back at him with a "Thanks man!!!" clearly a sign of overconfidence but then proceeds to do an over-the-top double bicep flex? It's like Doncic is trying to one up him. Am I the only one that sees this?!?!

i think Doncic is praising Ayton's Zeus type body actually... my take lol

[Mulhollanddrive]

3 players have averaged 20-10-1 on 50% FG before 22.

O'Neal, Davis, Towns.

You'd think Ayton will go close (has 2 seasons) as 3 out of 4 stats are almost a given he just needs to get his scoring volume up to 20 points.

[mabundo_nagumbe]

If Luka and DeAndre can get along, so can all of us!

Nope. Could you imagine them being at the gym and Ayton says "Congrats man!" with slight emotion (emphasized by the one exclamation point) and gives Doncic the awesome hang loose signal. Then Doncic yells back at him with a "Thanks man!!!" clearly a sign of overconfidence but then proceeds to do an over-the-top double bicep flex? It's like Doncic is trying to one up him. Am I the only one that sees this?!?!

yes, I think you are going too deep into this analysis. I don't think Luka was thinking about this, he is probably just excited because his team won.

[thamadkant]

What concerns me about Doncic is that it's considered he played well I would have rather his games be considered poor and that he had more upside. In Euroleague playoffs he averaged 14 / 5 / 3 on 35% FG.

I can guarantee he will struggle as a guard in the NBA. He needs to be an elite shooter to draw defenders closer to him... right now he's a Kobe type 3pt shooter, basically it means he can nail them but he's not a sharp shooter.



To me, if Suns draft Doncic, he will be combo forward, he's solid and good height 6'9 I think... he would be a play making slash and kick out type forward with ability to finish when his defender assumes he's going to pass.
Plenty of long, quick, athletic wings to throw at him...

[thamadkant]

3 players have averaged 20-10-1 on 50% FG before 22.

O'Neal, Davis, Towns.

You'd think Ayton will go close (has 2 seasons) as 3 out of 4 stats are almost a given he just needs to get his scoring volume up to 20 points.

he wont average 20 points with Booker and Jackson next to him... but gradually he will get there as he becomes more and more experienced coach will set him up more and his shots go up.

I expect him to be 15ppg 10rpg 1.5bpg, basically he's 3rd option ... or 2nd at best.

I think Jackson will continue to be that slasher, draw foul type player and Booker gets 20 shots.... not to mention Warren.


So 20/10 with 3 wings who wants to shoot.... its tough... but he will get plenty of easy one on ones and will most likely shoot at 55+% from the field... best time for him to develop his defense actually... the team can ask him to defend the paint and just work at it... save his energy defensively and as he becomes more and more comfortable getting fed down low and up top with those Durant-type zone area... he will become a 20ppg scorer

[Kerrsed]

If Luka and DeAndre can get along, so can all of us!

Nope. Could you imagine them being at the gym and Ayton says "Congrats man!" with slight emotion (emphasized by the one exclamation point) and gives Doncic the awesome hang loose signal. Then Doncic yells back at him with a "Thanks man!!!" clearly a sign of overconfidence but then proceeds to do an over-the-top double bicep flex? It's like Doncic is trying to one up him. Am I the only one that sees this?!?!

This is what i see......

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

[Bob8]

What concerns me about Doncic is that it's considered he played well I would have rather his games be considered poor and that he had more upside. In Euroleague playoffs he averaged 14 / 5 / 3 on 35% FG.

you have to look to the context. he was first scorer of the winning team, second rebounder and second assistant. F4 are not normal games, pressure big, (Cska coach will be probably sacked), it’s only about winning. And on general numbers are much lower in Euroleague. 14/5/3 is very good numbers even for regular season game.

Just look how former Nba players did in the final,

Vesely 3/5
Datome 6/2
Thompson 0/0
Fernandez 5/5
Ayon 4/2
Tavares 8/5
Randolph 3/1
Taylor 3/3

All 8 together made only 32 points.

15/3/4 from the kid looks pretty good from that point of view. I have to say, it’s kinda funny from my perspective to see people unimpressed with Doncic winning MVP award of the regular season, Euroleague title and MVP award of F4. The same people are praising a player, who was unable to help his team win in first round of NCAA tournament against pretty modest team. Some double standards?

[DaleyBlind]

will keep praying that we trade #1 for Towns, get er done McDonough

[thamadkant]

What concerns me about Doncic is that it's considered he played well I would have rather his games be considered poor and that he had more upside. In Euroleague playoffs he averaged 14 / 5 / 3 on 35% FG.

My take with NCAA vs Europe

NCAA players tend to have selfish players as Most are trying to showcase themselves more so than compromising to help others or the teams. Of course there will be players that are team first and committed to winning but it's not universal.
It's all about excitement of the game and chance to go pro for most.


European players are professionals already. It's their jobs. They've accepted that this is how they make a living so they don't have to show case as much they just follow coaches plays and play hard.


What I'm getting at is... Doncic is young and I felt that he was indeed given the keys to be as creative as he can and he did absolutely brilliant and definitely a fantastic career so far. But his coach have used him as the main guy and his team mates have let him run the show Deservingly.
Now imagine a player like Ayton in Europe... Imagine the coach giving him the keys and telling the team to go through him.... He would have put up monster numbers for sure. Unless they zone him out but still if players like Ekpeh Udoh in his mid 30s could dominate imagine someone like Ayton.


What I'm getting at Is... Watching Ayton's team mates ignore him half the time and play selfish ...had the team actually succumbed to him more and gave him the ball more... He would have averaged 30ppg. And so does other top elites in the NCAA...


Don't get me wrong Euro league is tough... Effort, intensity and tactics rule over there over individual heroics... Harden and other ISO style players would be looked down there.... It is different enough... So players who rely simply on talent but no tactics would struggle...you need IQ and discipline.

But in the NBA...it's IQ, discipline, skills, talent and athletic ability....

The absolute elite athletes are able to get by because they're freaks of nature.


Doncic was Euro MVP and Deservingly but he wasn't all wordly in regards to his performance... Especially for a player given that much green light and responsibilities...



I seriously think he will struggle against the athletic wings in the NBA.

With that said I fully support him as a combo point forward... He will not be best at PG for the Suns He will be best playing Bender's role...