Deandre Ayton news and highlights

[Jstock12]

Differences

1) Doncic at 18 was playing against 30 year olds and getting it done
2) Ayton at 18 was playing against 18-20 years olds and had a questionable motor
3) Would rather have had Doncic with a defense center like Holmes to cover his weaknesses than a non-rim protecting center.

See, my issue with the Holmes over Ayton debate is all you have seen of Holmes is spot minutes. Easy to go out and give 110% when you know you are only playing 13 or 14 minutes per game. Dont have to really worry about stamina, dont have to worry about picking up too many fouls, ect. It allows you to have more leeway and give more. Ayton doesnt have that luxury. That kind of play isnt sustainable for 30-36 minutes a game. I mean Holmes is averaging close to 3 fouls in his 15 minutes per game. He has had 2 games with 5 fouls in under 20 minutes. You dont think his defense or intensity would dip down if he was given Aytons minutes? They would have to if he had any chance to stay in the game. Thats the major drawback when comparing PER36 stats between a starter and a bench player. Not only do the limited minutes play in their favor, but also they are usually playing against lessor competition with the opponents bench in the game at the same time.

I see soooooo many people Gamethread after Gamethread call out Ayton for this and that, and yet i will see Holmes make the same exact mistke minutes later and no one utters a peep. Against Orlando i saw Holmes stand around with Ross blowing past his man and headed to the basket, and all Holmes did was turn his head and watch. I saw that happen twice in almost back to back plays. Nothing. If its Ayton....good lord we will have 6 posts trashing him about it.

It just amazes me, here we have one of the top rookies in the NBA (Should be #1), and all people want to do is pick apart every aspect of the kid, blow up whatever mistakes they can see, and yet be absolutely silent to anything good about him or talk about what he does great. So many people were wanting to go after KAT if we could, and here is Ayton putting up the same numbers KAT did his ROY season, but no one cares but a few posters. People want and expect Ayton to be a finished product at 20 years old in his rookie season.

If this is the bad and unmotivated and full of mistakes Ayton that everybody is trying to say, imagine in a few seasons when he starts picking everything up and putting it all together. That is going to be an unstoppable beast of a player. But as he stands, he is a 20/12 Machine with outstanding percentages in his rookie season with plenty of room to develop and grow in the future.

Ayton's obviously better than Holmes, but Holmes plays with a lot more energy. Now perhaps part of that is playing fewer minutes but sometimes Ayton lacks the energy at the beginning.

Ayton still puts up amazing numbers, better than any other rookie, but I can't imagine what he would be like with more energy and effort, though maybe that comes as he works himself more into game shape or just learns positioning better. After all Holmes has experience and watched Embiid.

Holmes is 25 too. He has 5+ years of experience on Ayton, so it's not surprising that his current impact might be bigger that Deandre's, but the ceilings aren't even comparable. If Ayton figures out the defensive end to at least an average level, he's an All-Star. Holmes is at best a role player off the bench on a good team.

[collidingNeurons]

See, my issue with the Holmes over Ayton debate is all you have seen of Holmes is spot minutes. Easy to go out and give 110% when you know you are only playing 13 or 14 minutes per game. Dont have to really worry about stamina, dont have to worry about picking up too many fouls, ect. It allows you to have more leeway and give more. Ayton doesnt have that luxury. That kind of play isnt sustainable for 30-36 minutes a game. I mean Holmes is averaging close to 3 fouls in his 15 minutes per game. He has had 2 games with 5 fouls in under 20 minutes. You dont think his defense or intensity would dip down if he was given Aytons minutes? They would have to if he had any chance to stay in the game. Thats the major drawback when comparing PER36 stats between a starter and a bench player. Not only do the limited minutes play in their favor, but also they are usually playing against lessor competition with the opponents bench in the game at the same time.

I see soooooo many people Gamethread after Gamethread call out Ayton for this and that, and yet i will see Holmes make the same exact mistke minutes later and no one utters a peep. Against Orlando i saw Holmes stand around with Ross blowing past his man and headed to the basket, and all Holmes did was turn his head and watch. I saw that happen twice in almost back to back plays. Nothing. If its Ayton....good lord we will have 6 posts trashing him about it.

It just amazes me, here we have one of the top rookies in the NBA (Should be #1), and all people want to do is pick apart every aspect of the kid, blow up whatever mistakes they can see, and yet be absolutely silent to anything good about him or talk about what he does great. So many people were wanting to go after KAT if we could, and here is Ayton putting up the same numbers KAT did his ROY season, but no one cares but a few posters. People want and expect Ayton to be a finished product at 20 years old in his rookie season.

If this is the bad and unmotivated and full of mistakes Ayton that everybody is trying to say, imagine in a few seasons when he starts picking everything up and putting it all together. That is going to be an unstoppable beast of a player. But as he stands, he is a 20/12 Machine with outstanding percentages in his rookie season with plenty of room to develop and grow in the future.

Ayton's obviously better than Holmes, but Holmes plays with a lot more energy. Now perhaps part of that is playing fewer minutes but sometimes Ayton lacks the energy at the beginning.

Ayton still puts up amazing numbers, better than any other rookie, but I can't imagine what he would be like with more energy and effort, though maybe that comes as he works himself more into game shape or just learns positioning better. After all Holmes has experience and watched Embiid.

Holmes is 25 too. He has 5+ years of experience on Ayton, so it's not surprising that his current impact might be bigger that Deandre's, but the ceilings aren't even comparable. If Ayton figures out the defensive end to at least an average level, he's an All-Star. Holmes is at best a role player off the bench on a good team.

if we could just combine the two of them...

[MrMiyagi]

Say what you want Myag... Im just calling it now so you have a chance to let it sink in and get used to it.

Luka might dance....but Sheandre prance. There's a difference. We got a ladyboy in the post, and he knows it.

Well Frank, you extrapolate to insane degrees from minuscule details and may just be the pettiest person on this board. You're not too different from a high school girl, are you? You've been pontificating about your ideal man, and how you wish that a certain someone were somehow just a little bit different and then they'd be perfect - and only if they could realize it!

Could it be that our dear Frump doth protest too much?

Watch on YouTube

[Bob8]

He's still one of the best rookies, and arguably the best

Nah... Luka, JJJ then Ayton. No advance stat will convince me otherwise because i am actually watching games from all of them. Ayton has ways to go to even catch JJJ but that's for the future to decide.

On the other hand, i do feel Suns fans from all over the place are a bit rough on him. Yes, he deserves the critique, that's the curse from being nr1 pick, but still, it's not his fault he was picked nr1. Almost no one, outside Suns orga ( and Gambo ), had him locked at nr1, most "experts" had him even outside top3.

I have watched them too, and while Luka looks good with a high IQ given his age, he also really trails Ayton whether it be advanced stats or raw stats....he has quite a bit worse scoring efficiency, TS% and eFG%, , Ayton has a 6.1 net rating, while Doncic as a -5.5 net rating, and Ayton has a 20.4 PER while Doncic has a 15.6 (league avg is 15). He also has a far better on/off. Those are advance #s. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/blocks/All/desc/1/Regular_Season?rookies=

For raw stats, despite Ayton playing fewer minutes per game, Ayton is right behind him in points (but his are more valuable due to the much higher efficiency), way ahead in rebounds, double in blocks (despite not being good there yet), and only 1.7 per game behind Luka in assists.. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Averages/Qualified/per/All/desc/1/Regular_Season?rookies=

No, I think most sites had Ayton #1 outside of thestepien. Most all the major sports sites, tankathon, and many others had Ayton 1.
Some had Doncic 1 but some had him lower than 2.

I can see arguments for each of the 3 players, but they are also playing in different circumstances. JJJ benefits from playing with Gasol who can play inside or out, and have a great PG in Conley. I doubt he would look as good with the Suns. And Ayton would look better playing with Conley passing, him and a C who was an ex DPOY candidate and now is a great passer, and can spread the floor and shoot 3s.

Doncic is playing under a seasoned coach and teammates who know the system, have played together, have a number of vets and PGs, and one of the best players of all time...the best euro of all time to help mentor him.

The Suns have a new coach, system, the most roster turnover in the NBA, the youngest team, etc.

Did you really compare shooting efficiency of a C and a playmaking wing? First has around 80% of his points assisted and second around 30%? If anything, Luka has incredible good efficiency numbers for a rookie in his position. LeBron for example had 43 eFg% as a rookie, Luka has 52%. And you’re saying Ayton has better advanced stats? Not RPM or RAPM. Knowing that bigs have usually better RPM than wings.

[Jstock12]

To give Ayton some slack, Doncic is playing on a much better team as is evident from them beating the 15-6 Clippers even without Luka. So it's not like Doncic is dragging Dallas to a winning record all by himself while Ayton struggles to do so.

[Frank Lee]

WTF Miyagi.... where did that come from ? I point out the girlish behavior on and off the court of your worshipped BigMan... and you try to flip this onto me ??? Typical I guess for those who are closeted doubters. So, nice one Mr Kettle. Keep in mind Im not the one in question here dude. Jab me all you want... it wont change She-andre will it? We still have a timid, low motor, low IQ to no clue, paycheck focused, #1 pick as a center. Am I wrong ? Sorry if my delivery chafes you. It has ever sense your Brandon Knight love affair was exposed. May be you should just start a FRANK LEE IS A **** thread so you can stay on topic.

Even though Ayton should be a walking mismatch, and he does show a great 'soft touch' (imagine that ), What he lacks should be very concerning... is this a 3 yr project we are looking at? Take the Orange Shades off and see the elephant in the room. Ayton is a one dimensional softie. Perhaps I can use a better term for you to understand ... he is flacid . Its one thing to be a wing with no D... but in todays game, it seems you need a rim protector and some form of D in the paint.

He will improve, as he is young, and we dont have a real PG, and a new system, and and and a whole boat load of excuses..... but the qualities he lacks are so elusive to obtain its almost unprecedented to find an example. I dont think he's a bust, but I dont think he's going to be some dominant game changer. You see, Im just disappointed.... but I'm not F-n Blind. May be when he gets confidence he might toughen up.... but I think we are going to see this kid get manhandled night in and out, for a long time. Thats not just my opinion. Too many doubts about his deficiencies. Just how many timid, passive, low Iq no D big men have turned it around ????
Go ahead, I'll let you start the list.


This pick, just as Len, Bender, Jackson, Chris... (all top ten-ers), was supposed help this franchise become competitive. Ayton is going to be better than most I suppose, certainly better than our past top picks, but until he learns an awful lot, he's going to be as much of a liability as an asset. Its disappointing to see so how far behind he is on half the game and just how passive and unsure he is, even on offense where he should excel. (Perhaps Amare's teenage manchild dominance is still to easy to remember)

but no new news here.....I feel like I spent the bulk of this post saying the obvious... when I should have condensed my response in a simple comment.





pack sand miyagi

[Saberestar]

To give Ayton some slack, Doncic is playing on a much better team as is evident from them beating the 15-6 Clippers even without Luka. So it's not like Doncic is dragging Dallas to a winning record all by himself while Ayton struggles to do so.

Yeah, I think that Ayton is the least of our problems.

I know that he is not a good defender for now, but other than that he is making his job as a rookie starting C.

Some people had superhigh expectations for him... but he can not change all the bad stuff that have been happening in the franchise for years and years. So many bad decisions.

In the last few games he has played a bit worse because he looks tired, and with Warren and Booker out he is more exposed. It is normal. He is playing 32 mpg in the NBA as a starter and with big responsibilities since day one.

He needs to improve his conditioning and that is easier to fix in the NBA than other things.

We need to remember that he is just 20 and he is playing so many games for the first time in his career. A better conditioning is gonna be huge for his overall defense and motor.

[handsome salary]

Personally I'd just like to see one game showing some real dominance or wow. Not 'oh that's nice'.

Suns fans hoping for Hakeem and instead getting Sampson.

[Ryo Coola]

Bb is 1

Sent from my SM-J727U using Tapatalk

[bwgood77]

Nah... Luka, JJJ then Ayton. No advance stat will convince me otherwise because i am actually watching games from all of them. Ayton has ways to go to even catch JJJ but that's for the future to decide.

On the other hand, i do feel Suns fans from all over the place are a bit rough on him. Yes, he deserves the critique, that's the curse from being nr1 pick, but still, it's not his fault he was picked nr1. Almost no one, outside Suns orga ( and Gambo ), had him locked at nr1, most "experts" had him even outside top3.

I have watched them too, and while Luka looks good with a high IQ given his age, he also really trails Ayton whether it be advanced stats or raw stats....he has quite a bit worse scoring efficiency, TS% and eFG%, , Ayton has a 6.1 net rating, while Doncic as a -5.5 net rating, and Ayton has a 20.4 PER while Doncic has a 15.6 (league avg is 15). He also has a far better on/off. Those are advance #s. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/blocks/All/desc/1/Regular_Season?rookies=

For raw stats, despite Ayton playing fewer minutes per game, Ayton is right behind him in points (but his are more valuable due to the much higher efficiency), way ahead in rebounds, double in blocks (despite not being good there yet), and only 1.7 per game behind Luka in assists.. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Averages/Qualified/per/All/desc/1/Regular_Season?rookies=

No, I think most sites had Ayton #1 outside of thestepien. Most all the major sports sites, tankathon, and many others had Ayton 1.
Some had Doncic 1 but some had him lower than 2.

I can see arguments for each of the 3 players, but they are also playing in different circumstances. JJJ benefits from playing with Gasol who can play inside or out, and have a great PG in Conley. I doubt he would look as good with the Suns. And Ayton would look better playing with Conley passing, him and a C who was an ex DPOY candidate and now is a great passer, and can spread the floor and shoot 3s.

Doncic is playing under a seasoned coach and teammates who know the system, have played together, have a number of vets and PGs, and one of the best players of all time...the best euro of all time to help mentor him.

The Suns have a new coach, system, the most roster turnover in the NBA, the youngest team, etc.

Did you really compare shooting efficiency of a C and a playmaking wing? First has around 80% of his points assisted and second around 30%? If anything, Luka has incredible good efficiency numbers for a rookie in his position. LeBron for example had 43 eFg% as a rookie, Luka has 52%. And you’re saying Ayton has better advanced stats? Not RPM or RAPM. Knowing that bigs have usually better RPM than wings.

Yes, actually I did. Efficiency is efficiency. The more points on the higher efficiency, the better. There is no doubt Doncic is great. I thought he reminded me of pieces of Bird, Harden, etc, so I'm not trying to minimize him, but compare numbers and who is better at what. Doncic has great efficiency for a rookie wing, and his lack of shooting the 3 many thought would carry over with minimal space in euroleague and being swarmed by defenders was unfounded. Now it could go down as defenders key more on him, but he's impressed.

As has Ayton with his passing, scoring, rebounding and man defense.

[Bob8]

I have watched them too, and while Luka looks good with a high IQ given his age, he also really trails Ayton whether it be advanced stats or raw stats....he has quite a bit worse scoring efficiency, TS% and eFG%, , Ayton has a 6.1 net rating, while Doncic as a -5.5 net rating, and Ayton has a 20.4 PER while Doncic has a 15.6 (league avg is 15). He also has a far better on/off. Those are advance #s. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/blocks/All/desc/1/Regular_Season?rookies=

For raw stats, despite Ayton playing fewer minutes per game, Ayton is right behind him in points (but his are more valuable due to the much higher efficiency), way ahead in rebounds, double in blocks (despite not being good there yet), and only 1.7 per game behind Luka in assists.. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2019/Averages/Qualified/per/All/desc/1/Regular_Season?rookies=

No, I think most sites had Ayton #1 outside of thestepien. Most all the major sports sites, tankathon, and many others had Ayton 1.
Some had Doncic 1 but some had him lower than 2.

I can see arguments for each of the 3 players, but they are also playing in different circumstances. JJJ benefits from playing with Gasol who can play inside or out, and have a great PG in Conley. I doubt he would look as good with the Suns. And Ayton would look better playing with Conley passing, him and a C who was an ex DPOY candidate and now is a great passer, and can spread the floor and shoot 3s.

Doncic is playing under a seasoned coach and teammates who know the system, have played together, have a number of vets and PGs, and one of the best players of all time...the best euro of all time to help mentor him.

The Suns have a new coach, system, the most roster turnover in the NBA, the youngest team, etc.

Did you really compare shooting efficiency of a C and a playmaking wing? First has around 80% of his points assisted and second around 30%? If anything, Luka has incredible good efficiency numbers for a rookie in his position. LeBron for example had 43 eFg% as a rookie, Luka has 52%. And you’re saying Ayton has better advanced stats? Not RPM or RAPM. Knowing that bigs have usually better RPM than wings.

Yes, actually I did. Efficiency is efficiency. The more points on the higher efficiency, the better. There is no doubt Doncic is great. I thought he reminded me of pieces of Bird, Harden, etc, so I'm not trying to minimize him, but compare numbers and who is better at what. Doncic has great efficiency for a rookie wing, and his lack of shooting the 3 many thought would carry over with minimal space in euroleague and being swarmed by defenders was unfounded. Now it could go down as defenders key more on him, but he's impressed.

As has Ayton with his passing, scoring, rebounding and man defense.

I know that you’re very objective. Imho you just cannot compare some stats. I don’t know if data that Gobert is the most efficient player in Nba means anything. Knowing him, we can just assume, that he’s taking very easy shots. Efficiency between different positions is just not comparable. The same goes with you stating Ayton is better in advanced stats. If he’s better, why he is much worse than Luka in RPM and RAPM? I don’t want to argue or anything, but imho all stats should be interpreted. Many stats out there are totally useless for comparison between different positions or different teams. RPM/RAPM try to minimize this problems. It’s not ideal, but at least show more objective performance of a single player and not players with who he is playing with.

[bwgood77]

Did you really compare shooting efficiency of a C and a playmaking wing? First has around 80% of his points assisted and second around 30%? If anything, Luka has incredible good efficiency numbers for a rookie in his position. LeBron for example had 43 eFg% as a rookie, Luka has 52%. And you’re saying Ayton has better advanced stats? Not RPM or RAPM. Knowing that bigs have usually better RPM than wings.

Yes, actually I did. Efficiency is efficiency. The more points on the higher efficiency, the better. There is no doubt Doncic is great. I thought he reminded me of pieces of Bird, Harden, etc, so I'm not trying to minimize him, but compare numbers and who is better at what. Doncic has great efficiency for a rookie wing, and his lack of shooting the 3 many thought would carry over with minimal space in euroleague and being swarmed by defenders was unfounded. Now it could go down as defenders key more on him, but he's impressed.

As has Ayton with his passing, scoring, rebounding and man defense.

I know that you’re very objective. Imho you just cannot compare some stats. I don’t know if data that Gobert is the most efficient player in Nba means anything. Knowing him, we can just assume, that he’s taking very easy shots. Efficiency between different positions is just not comparable. The same goes with you stating Ayton is better in advanced stats. If he’s better, why he is much worse than Luka in RPM and RAPM? I don’t want to argue or anything, but imho all stats should be interpreted. Many stats out there are totally useless for comparison between different positions or different teams. RPM/RAPM try to minimize this problems. It’s not ideal, but at least show more objective performance of a single player and not players with who he is playing with.

RPM and RAPM are largely reliant on how good the team is. If you are on a bad team getting beaten you are going to rate lower on those rankings by default.

Ayton is not good defensively, which hurts that too.

Looking at just efficiency isn't great, but if you look at PPG along with efficiency, then it doesn't matter. A lot of non Centers are among the league leaders in efficiency. Siakam is #1, McDermott is 4th, Curry 6th, Bogdanovic 8th, Bjelica 10th, Lin 11th, Hernamgomez 12th, Brogdon 17th, Arcidiacono 19th, and Joe Harris. Some of those play smaller positions than Doncic as well, who is playing at PF. Even fellow PF Sabonis ranks 2nd overall in efficiency.

[MrMiyagi]

WTF Miyagi.... where did that come from ? I point out the girlish behavior on and off the court of your worshipped BigMan... and you try to flip this onto me ??? Typical I guess for those who are closeted doubters. So, nice one Mr Kettle. Keep in mind Im not the one in question here dude. Jab me all you want... it wont change She-andre will it? We still have a timid, low motor, low IQ to no clue, paycheck focused, #1 pick as a center. Am I wrong ? Sorry if my delivery chafes you. It has ever sense your Brandon Knight love affair was exposed. May be you should just start a FRANK LEE IS A **** thread so you can stay on topic.

Even though Ayton should be a walking mismatch, and he does show a great 'soft touch' (imagine that ), What he lacks should be very concerning... is this a 3 yr project we are looking at? Take the Orange Shades off and see the elephant in the room. Ayton is a one dimensional softie. Perhaps I can use a better term for you to understand ... he is flacid . Its one thing to be a wing with no D... but in todays game, it seems you need a rim protector and some form of D in the paint.

He will improve, as he is young, and we dont have a real PG, and a new system, and and and a whole boat load of excuses..... but the qualities he lacks are so elusive to obtain its almost unprecedented to find an example. I dont think he's a bust, but I dont think he's going to be some dominant game changer. You see, Im just disappointed.... but I'm not F-n Blind. May be when he gets confidence he might toughen up.... but I think we are going to see this kid get manhandled night in and out, for a long time. Thats not just my opinion. Too many doubts about his deficiencies. Just how many timid, passive, low Iq no D big men have turned it around ????
Go ahead, I'll let you start the list.


This pick, just as Len, Bender, Jackson, Chris... (all top ten-ers), was supposed help this franchise become competitive. Ayton is going to be better than most I suppose, certainly better than our past top picks, but until he learns an awful lot, he's going to be as much of a liability as an asset. Its disappointing to see so how far behind he is on half the game and just how passive and unsure he is, even on offense where he should excel. (Perhaps Amare's teenage manchild dominance is still to easy to remember)

but no new news here.....I feel like I spent the bulk of this post saying the obvious... when I should have condensed my response in a simple comment.





pack sand miyagi

Looks like I ruffled some panites.

And if you're really worried about that video of Ayton, are you also concerned about Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis:

Watch on YouTube

That's about as feminine as it gets. Or are you willing to concede that maybe, just maybe that dancing video was two dudes being silly for a laugh?

[MrMiyagi]

I believe we once had a rookie who was the absolute most timid player I've ever seen take the basketball court, and now he's an all-star caliber player that all these Ayton haters wish we still had.

Spoiler:

[sunsbg]

To give Ayton some slack, Doncic is playing on a much better team as is evident from them beating the 15-6 Clippers even without Luka. So it's not like Doncic is dragging Dallas to a winning record all by himself while Ayton struggles to do so.

In the GB rookie thread Bob8 stated Doncic won a game for the Mavs in the 1st quarter. I replied, he will say Doncic won a game even if he didn't play. So I will not be surprised if he thinks it's the case in the Clippers game.

[Bob8]

Yes, actually I did. Efficiency is efficiency. The more points on the higher efficiency, the better. There is no doubt Doncic is great. I thought he reminded me of pieces of Bird, Harden, etc, so I'm not trying to minimize him, but compare numbers and who is better at what. Doncic has great efficiency for a rookie wing, and his lack of shooting the 3 many thought would carry over with minimal space in euroleague and being swarmed by defenders was unfounded. Now it could go down as defenders key more on him, but he's impressed.

As has Ayton with his passing, scoring, rebounding and man defense.

I know that you’re very objective. Imho you just cannot compare some stats. I don’t know if data that Gobert is the most efficient player in Nba means anything. Knowing him, we can just assume, that he’s taking very easy shots. Efficiency between different positions is just not comparable. The same goes with you stating Ayton is better in advanced stats. If he’s better, why he is much worse than Luka in RPM and RAPM? I don’t want to argue or anything, but imho all stats should be interpreted. Many stats out there are totally useless for comparison between different positions or different teams. RPM/RAPM try to minimize this problems. It’s not ideal, but at least show more objective performance of a single player and not players with who he is playing with.

RPM and RAPM are largely reliant on how good the team is. If you are on a bad team getting beaten you are going to rate lower on those rankings by default.

Ayton is not good defensively, which hurts that too.

Looking at just efficiency isn't great, but if you look at PPG along with efficiency, then it doesn't matter. A lot of non Centers are among the league leaders in efficiency. Siakam is #1, McDermott is 4th, Curry 6th, Bogdanovic 8th, Bjelica 10th, Lin 11th, Hernamgomez 12th, Brogdon 17th, Arcidiacono 19th, and Joe Harris. Some of those play smaller positions than Doncic as well, who is playing at PF. Even fellow PF Sabonis ranks 2nd overall in efficiency.

And how many of them has only 30% assisted shots? Even Curry has more. We both know that Doncic is not playing Pf in offense. Sabonis has around 70% of his shot assisted, Luka around 30%. They’re totally different players.
No stats are ideal, but RPM/RAPM at least try to show some picture, other are mostly much worse or in some cases totally misleading for comparison between different teams.

No need to continue with this debate, we won’t come to the conclusion. I can agree that Ayton has better efficiency numbers, but imho that doesn’t mean anything. You’re saying that Ayton has better advanced stats, but imho RPM/RAPM shows that’s not the case. Nothing wrong with different options.

[Bob8]

To give Ayton some slack, Doncic is playing on a much better team as is evident from them beating the 15-6 Clippers even without Luka. So it's not like Doncic is dragging Dallas to a winning record all by himself while Ayton struggles to do so.

In the GB rookie thread Bob8 stated Doncic won a game for the Mavs in the 1st quarter. I replied, he will say Doncic won a game even if he didn't play. So I will not be surprised if he thinks it's the case in the Clippers game.

yes, mavs winning 1 game without him, proves the they don’t need him at all.

[sunsbg]

To give Ayton some slack, Doncic is playing on a much better team as is evident from them beating the 15-6 Clippers even without Luka. So it's not like Doncic is dragging Dallas to a winning record all by himself while Ayton struggles to do so.

In the GB rookie thread Bob8 stated Doncic won a game for the Mavs in the 1st quarter. I replied, he will say Doncic won a game even if he didn't play. So I will not be surprised if he thinks it's the case in the Clippers game.

yes, mavs winning 1 game without him, proves the they don’t need him at all.

Nobody said that, but obviously didn't need him in this one Many people gave credit to Mavs bench back then, but you will never accept that.

[sunsbg]

If Booker is out, next few games are a huge test for Igor, more than Ayton.

If he can't run an offense inside around Deandre, who even playing soft should be going to the line 8-10 times per game, Kokoskov is not the coach for this team.

At this point I'll give a rookie C credit for buying in to a coach's system even if it doesn't benefit him much. But if a coach can't draw some plays for the Nr 1 pick, then maybe it is not a coincidence he was an assistent all this time.

[Bob8]

In the GB rookie thread Bob8 stated Doncic won a game for the Mavs in the 1st quarter. I replied, he will say Doncic won a game even if he didn't play. So I will not be surprised if he thinks it's the case in the Clippers game.

yes, mavs winning 1 game without him, proves the they don’t need him at all.

Nobody said that, but obviously didn't need him in this one Many people gave credit to Mavs bench back then, but you will never accept that.

Mavs are very solid this year, because of all their players. Luka, Jordan, other starters and the bench. Obviously something changed this year. And Luka is a big part of this change. Not only directly, but helping changing energy in the club indirectly too.