2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[irish22022]

If you want Luka #1 that year you are saying you don't want KD now. Anything else would be revisionist history. All we know is all we have. We have CP Book KD Ayton. With Luka, we do not.

Would it work better or worse, go ahead and kill yourselves thinking about it. But I know that I like our chances this year. And the devil you know is better than the one you don't.

[bwgood77]

ROI

In regards to defending or picking on players, I feel we are all here because we love the Suns. I personally love the Suns and I want the best for the team. Comparing players and complaining about one player over another gets a lot of chat here.

For me it comes down to ROI. Sure there are intangibles besides money but it is fare to be harder on one person more than an other. If I am paying someone to do a job and someone is doing a similar job for less money then I will be more critical of the potentially overpaid guy. I will give much, much more leniency to the guy over performing. Hence, why I think Ayton and Paul get a lot of chatter. It is not that they are not good players, but are they worth the money we are paying them. I want them both here and they have both served us well in the past, but talking about today and the future is their ROI positive?

Now look at the investments below and ask yourself if those investment could not be spent better elsewhere? I am not advocating for trading anyone but it is fair to question if someone is earning their money on any given night and I feel this is the place to have those conversations and learn from each other.

KD 44m
DB 33m
DA 30m
CP 28m
LS 9m
Cam 6m
TC 5m
Baz 4m
Biz 2.9m
TJ 2.6m
DL 2m
Oko 1.9m
Jock 1.5m
Ross 916k
Ish 855k
SLee 406k

I think strictly looking at it this way with no context, that Ayton, Shamet and Baz give the least value per dollar. CP could be next. Anyone making the minimum who contributes anything at all is a positive. Biz, TJ, Ross and Okogie provide the most bang for buck, but obviously you couldn't have a team full of those guys, and then Book and KD, despite how much they make give you a lot of bang for buck, though obviously that changes if they get injured and are not playing. I think Payne and Craig are good values.

Paul isn't great value right now, which was my concern with his contract, but he's still a good guy to have overall and he was great value up until game 2 against Dallas last year and has had some good games this year.

Adding context, since we are operating over the cap, and DA was a RFA, we had to match rather than lose for nothing. I also think he probably adds a lot more things than people see in the box score. I know people rip on his screening but he is one of the top screeners in the NBA when you are viewing it as successful screen (how many points were scored off your screens) and what cannot really be too underestimated is his gravity. People know he can score very efficiently so they can't leave him open because his efficiency over the past few years overall has been the best on the team, so if you leave him open you pay. So players HAVE to guard him, and our players shoot very well from 3 if he gets doubled and makes them pay by finding the open 3 pt shooter.

Also, there is the problem of just saying "spend $30 million on someone else" because it's not like if we let him walk we would have had $30 million extra to spend because we were over the cap and can re-sign our own players to be quite a bit over the cap, but can't sign free agents to be over the cap. The cap is $123 million and our salaries are $172 million, which means we would have had zero to spend. https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHO.html

So then it comes down to the only option being a trade. I believe it would be difficult to find a trade right now that would make us better. I don't think we could find a better C that a team would trade straight up for him and I doubt we could find a solid C and PG for post Paul. I had mentioned realistic possibilities before but still wouldn't have done them (Rozier/Plumlee for example).

Same goes for Paul. He won't have value in a trade, so although maybe someone could argue his money could be better spent elsewhere (which could only happen in trade) I seriously doubt we could upgrade through trade. And I think his vet presence and probably analyzing situations in games, making adjustments counts for a lot more than just looking at his #s.

Of course I probably shouldn' mention because it's overkill, but Bridges is the ultimate value guy, especially since he is in the first year of his new contract and if you were to look at having long term...of course that's water under the bridges.

[bwgood77]

I had my doubts from the start Luka and Booker pairing would have worked great. Looking at the Kyrie + Luka experiment have not changed my mind, quite the opposite. Between Irving and Book it's Kyrie who is more willing to accept being second fiddle. Luka'a complete lack of off ball play is a major flow in his game.

Don't forget the Igor factor either. Booker being pushed aside by a rookie coach and player would not have been a pretty sight.

I don't think that would have been the case. Dragic was really the main guy when they played in international competition. That being said, Booker didn't want the Suns to draft him. He wanted to be the guy. He was interviewed and said "you gotta go Ayton". Not that it should have mattered necessarily. We were bad enough at the time to get the #1 pick so you shouldn't be making picks to please players.

That is another interesting dynamic with the potential of us winning a championship. It will likely always be thought of around the NBA as KD coming to Phoenix and winning a championshp. Probably similar to Barkley (which I know has always been compared). Not too many talk about KJ's team from 88-92 getting to the WCF twice, and then when Barkley came he only made it that far once, but a lot of people talk about it being Barkley's team, and it was when he came, but any championship would have only really been associated with Barkley, likely even if KJ was scoring 40 like he was against Houston and won finals MVP...(46 and 10 in game 7 vs Houston in 95, 43 and 9 in another game)..but the vast majority of people only think of it as Barkley's team.

[lilfishi22]

ROI

In regards to defending or picking on players, I feel we are all here because we love the Suns. I personally love the Suns and I want the best for the team. Comparing players and complaining about one player over another gets a lot of chat here.

For me it comes down to ROI. Sure there are intangibles besides money but it is fare to be harder on one person more than an other. If I am paying someone to do a job and someone is doing a similar job for less money then I will be more critical of the potentially overpaid guy. I will give much, much more leniency to the guy over performing. Hence, why I think Ayton and Paul get a lot of chatter. It is not that they are not good players, but are they worth the money we are paying them. I want them both here and they have both served us well in the past, but talking about today and the future is their ROI positive?

Now look at the investments below and ask yourself if those investment could not be spent better elsewhere? I am not advocating for trading anyone but it is fair to question if someone is earning their money on any given night and I feel this is the place to have those conversations and learn from each other.

KD 44m
DB 33m
DA 30m
CP 28m
LS 9m
Cam 6m
TC 5m
Baz 4m
Biz 2.9m
TJ 2.6m
DL 2m
Oko 1.9m
Jock 1.5m
Ross 916k
Ish 855k
SLee 406k

Pretty much agree. In my view, there are 3 players who are clearly overpaid for their level of production and consistency and that's Chris Paul, Ayton and Shamet. Everyone else you can make an argument they are about right.

[kennydorglas]

Ayton earning 30M/yr is a crime against humanity

[bwgood77]

From Zach Lowe's 10 things today:

Spoiler:

When T.J. Warren goes fast

Kevin Durant locks almost everything into place for the Phoenix Suns. He stands atop of what is probably the game's best foursome -- Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Durant, and Deandre Ayton -- though a few teams (the Boston Celtics, Milwaukee Bucks, and Cleveland Cavaliers among them) could put forth rival quartets.

The Suns no longer have to play Josh Okogie and Torrey Craig together so much; defenses stray from them, squeezing the paint from both sides when they share the floor. Durant adds true power forward size and (sometimes) rebounding.

The only question left is that fifth spot and the bench behind it. Phoenix has a lot of solid reserves. Say their names out loud, and you think to yourself, "Yeah, sounds good!" But they are all eighth, ninth, or 10th guys. Many have been out of rotations on worse teams. You can cobble a bench from that -- such is the luxury of having a Big Four, and perhaps keeping two of them on the floor at all times -- but it will wobble on some nights.

Ayton's play fluctuates. Paul hasn't been able to bring his "A" game every night, and he'll have to shoot and score for this team to win it all. When Booker and Durant are on the court -- with Ayton slicing down the line -- some defenses will stray from Paul almost by default, wagering on his pass-first nature. He has to let it fly.

Warren looms as one "fifth guy" possibility who might combine size, shooting, and in-a-pinch isolation scoring. He has not been the same after missing almost two full seasons with foot issues. He is not as slithery-explosive. He fell out of Monty Williams' rotation for a spell.

But he's back in, and showing more zip.

(video of play)

That's the Warren Phoenix needs. Like a lot of old-school midrange artists, Warren can be laborious with the ball. There is not much studio space for that now. Warren does damage when he's decisive against mismatches, and he should get plenty with defenses focused elsewhere.

There is also a big part about Bridges..if anyone is interested I can put it in the Around the NBA thread.

[Frank Lee]

….

[Frank Lee]

……..provide the most bang for buck, but obviously you couldn't have a team full of those guys, ……

You had better get used to it

[SunsRback4Good]

……..provide the most bang for buck, but obviously you couldn't have a team full of those guys, ……

You had better get used to it

You had better get used to it

[Sunlight]

OKC's meltdown, first against Charlotte and now against Indy, thankfully keeps Dallas' chances alive. I see that Luka and Kyrie are capable of beating anyone in the bo1 series, especially the Lakers. Also, why not challenge Denver at least a little, unlike the inexperienced OKC.

[Sunlight]

My Prediction:

Nuggets - Mavs
Grizzlies - Pelicans
Kings - Lakers
Suns - GSW

[SunsRback4Good]

My Prediction:

Nuggets - Mavs
Grizzlies - Pelicans
Kings - Lakers
Suns - GSW

Will Tim Donaghy be reffing this series?

[BobbieL]

ROI

In regards to defending or picking on players, I feel we are all here because we love the Suns. I personally love the Suns and I want the best for the team. Comparing players and complaining about one player over another gets a lot of chat here.

For me it comes down to ROI. Sure there are intangibles besides money but it is fare to be harder on one person more than an other. If I am paying someone to do a job and someone is doing a similar job for less money then I will be more critical of the potentially overpaid guy. I will give much, much more leniency to the guy over performing. Hence, why I think Ayton and Paul get a lot of chatter. It is not that they are not good players, but are they worth the money we are paying them. I want them both here and they have both served us well in the past, but talking about today and the future is their ROI positive?

Now look at the investments below and ask yourself if those investment could not be spent better elsewhere? I am not advocating for trading anyone but it is fair to question if someone is earning their money on any given night and I feel this is the place to have those conversations and learn from each other.

KD 44m
DB 33m
DA 30m
CP 28m
LS 9m
Cam 6m
TC 5m
Baz 4m
Biz 2.9m
TJ 2.6m
DL 2m
Oko 1.9m
Jock 1.5m
Ross 916k
Ish 855k
SLee 406k

Pretty much agree. In my view, there are 3 players who are clearly overpaid for their level of production and consistency and that's Chris Paul, Ayton and Shamet. Everyone else you can make an argument they are about right.

Shamet is a good trade piece next trade deadline. Payne might be too

Paul - have no clue if he has value. Not sure if he has 31 going out but with the option - team only has 16 to take on

[Saberestar]

Wow

BREAKING: Victor Wembanyama will NOT declare for the 2023 NBA Draft.

He will play another season for Metropolitans 92.

[MrMiyagi]

Wow

BREAKING: Victor Wembanyama will NOT declare for the 2023 NBA Draft.

He will play another season for Metropolitans 92.

Hilarious

[Iceman36]

Wow

BREAKING: Victor Wembanyama will NOT declare for the 2023 NBA Draft.

He will play another season for Metropolitans 92.

Hilarious

It's an April Fool...

[MrMiyagi]

Wow

Hilarious

It's an April Fool...

I had NO IDEA! Thank you so much for your enlightened clarity! Teach me to be as wise as you are!

[SunsRback4Good]

Wow

BREAKING: Victor Wembanyama will NOT declare for the 2023 NBA Draft.

He will play another season for Metropolitans 92.

Hilarious

It’s April fools which I assume is most likely a hilarious joke. You can’t take anything you read on internet serious until you double check the sources. Don’t worry Victor is coming to the NBA as we speak.

[bwgood77]

OKC's meltdown, first against Charlotte and now against Indy, thankfully keeps Dallas' chances alive. I see that Luka and Kyrie are capable of beating anyone in the bo1 series, especially the Lakers. Also, why not challenge Denver at least a little, unlike the inexperienced OKC.

OKC has the tiebreaker against Dallas, so Dallas has to finish a game ahead of them. They may need to win out..they are at Miami and Atlanta the next two days and then have the Kings and finish with easier games in the Bulls and Spurs.

OKC has a tough one with us, @GS, @Utah (though they may not want to win) and Memphis (who could rest players in the last game with seeding set).

[bwgood77]

My Prediction:

Nuggets - Mavs
Grizzlies - Pelicans
Kings - Lakers
Suns - GSW

Clippers would really have to crap the bed to miss the playoffs altogether.