Draft Discussion Part 3

[RaisingArizona]

So no official measurements for us to look at other than HS all star games and college measurements that are skewed. I'd like to know Isaac's reach if he can play the 5 at times and JJ/Tatum's wingspan. The team's have them but us fans are important too.

Monk having the only "open" workout/interview makes me believe Gambo's report of trying to move down. If they can swindle a future 1st from Orl-Ny-Min a grab Isaac at #6-8 is my best case.

That'd be sweet!

[DirtyDez]

So no official measurements for us to look at other than HS all star games and college measurements that are skewed. I'd like to know Isaac's reach if he can play the 5 at times and JJ/Tatum's wingspan. The team's have them but us fans are important too.

Monk having the only "open" workout/interview makes me believe Gambo's report of trying to move down. If they can swindle a future 1st from Orl-Ny-Min a grab Isaac at #6-8 is my best case.

If they are talking about trading down I would put money on Collins being their target.

If we trade down it better be for 2 picks in the top ten and the first better be at least number 6 otherwise it's a gutless move.

Depends on their board. If their 4-8 guys have little to no separation and can pick up a future pick by trading down it could be worth it. I'm hoping a team in that range falls in love with Monk, Fox or Smith. We could steal some value.

[Saberestar]

So no official measurements for us to look at other than HS all star games and college measurements that are skewed. I'd like to know Isaac's reach if he can play the 5 at times and JJ/Tatum's wingspan. The team's have them but us fans are important too.

Monk having the only "open" workout/interview makes me believe Gambo's report of trying to move down. If they can swindle a future 1st from Orl-Ny-Min a grab Isaac at #6-8 is my best case.

I do not think so.

Monk, Isaac and Tatum have worked out for us and all of them are not a reach at #4. We do not know who exactly Sacto wants. They need a little bit of everything on their roster like us, not so sure about Fox being his favorite prospect.

We probably have had more private workouts and we are gonna have some more. Hopefully we get some info these next few days about measurements.

[sunsbum]

you guys are weird with your measurements. IDGAF about inches, can they ball?

[Qwigglez]

Watch on YouTube

Not worried about fit as of now considering we finished with the 2nd worst record in the league. I'd prefer we just go best player available and worry about the rest later.
I don't think we should be trading down either. If we want to pick up another draft pick then I suggest we trade Bledsoe and/or the 2018 Miami pick.

[le crapaud]

Unless the scouting reports have missed some significant hole in Ntilikina's game... why is Fox ahead of him, exactly? Fox has had his D called into question by advanced stats and some scouts, his J is questionable at best and no one claims that he is an elite floor general. Is speed so much more valuable than everything Ntilikina is supposed to bring to the table?

A lot of more info and tape from Fox so scouts/GMs are more sure about what Fox brings to your team.

It is not only about speed...is high character, ball handling, winning mentality...all the people that has worked around Fox speaks really well about him (Team USA, High School, Kentucky) and that people is trusted. There are not so many deep info regarding Ntilikina so Fox is a better known commodity.

Yes, definitely more info about Fox, and people seeing him here play for the highest profile college team, despite suspect stats, gets high marks for character and speed. I think Fox has a winning attitude, great speed, energy and defensive intensity. And he likes to score by himself. He doesn't get many assists or shoot well.

I can't speak positively or negatively about Ntilikina because I don't know enough, but I can say that his quickness wouldn't be that big of a concern to me (if that concern is valid), especially in relation to Fox if he really could hit the 3 at that 40%+ rate and showed good court vision and passing.

Much like Bender, there are unknowns (though you knew and saw how special Bender was in tape), and he could be special, but it remains to be seen on an NBA court, like it was with Bender.

If you guys want to know a little bit more about Ntilikina, there's a few good breakdown videos about him here

Watch on YouTube

.

[Frank Lee]

All the roster shuffling drama can be avoided by moving down a spot or two and picking Markkanen or Collins. Let Len walk, sign Williams. Time to realize there are no real needle movers. Fultz may be... but its a huge may be. Same for Ball. The rest, basically 3-10, all have plus/minus qualities and no real stand out.

Dont swing for the fences when you are 4 runs down. Pick a building block here. I can't see any downside at all taking one of those two bigs. I could give a rats rear about Laurie's lack of D.... let that kid bomb away and teams have to adjust to him. And Collins looks like the most complete two way big on the board. As mentioned over and over.... we are only competing for the 8th seed this year.

BPA is so subjective. You have to start thinking of roster fit with such a homogenous group. If McD can move down and glean a pick swap next year or some other asset, you know he will be considering it.

[Saberestar]

All the roster shuffling drama can be avoided by moving down a spot or two and picking Markkanen or Collins. Let Len walk, sign Williams. Time to realize there are no real needle movers. Fultz may be... but its a huge may be. Same for Ball. The rest, basically 3-10, all have plus/minus qualities and no real stand out.

Dont swing for the fences when you are 4 runs down. Pick a building block here. I can't see any downside at all taking one of those two bigs. I could give a rats rear about Laurie's lack of D.... let that kid bomb away and teams have to adjust to him. And Collins looks like the most complete two way big on the board. As mentioned over and over.... we are only competing for the 8th seed this year.

BPA is so subjective. You have to start thinking of roster fit with such a homogenous group. If McD can move down and glean a pick swap next year or some other asset, you know he will be considering it.

Those are the less exciting players in the entire lottery from this draft IMO. After all the tanking last season, that would be sad.

Monk, Fox, Tatum, Isaac, Jackson...whoever before an slow and unathletic (yeah, for the NBA standards) seven footer.

[thamadkant]

i think Tatum will play very similar to the Morris twins. And we all know that didnt really fit the system or fast ball movement slash tempo suns wanted to do.

If he was more athletic or a more of an all rounder and a better catch and shoot guy.. Ala Durant like... Then yeah... But Im not sure he will fit well with what Suns want... Again he is talented but maybe on a half court team that requires less ball movement and more ISO plays.

[Qwigglez]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

[Frank Lee]

unathletic saber? Really?

You buy into the biometric stats too much. BBIQ and shooting are equal to length/span and vertical .

[Frank Lee]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I'm mostly with Frank here. One thing that was very clear to me watching Bender play last season is that he's not a starting center, on either end of the court. His favorite passing target is the center - he likes to make tough interior passes that others can't pull off due to the size difference. His shot most closely resembles that of a shooting guard - quick, high release. He is able to switch onto a lot of (not all) perimeter players. Defensively, he is best off-ball, covering for others, getting weak side blocks. The only things that point to him being a center are the fact that he thrives at the top of the key (where many centers are positioned in NBA offenses) and that his hook shot looks legit (sorry Alex). You don't want him being your strong side shot blocker or constantly having to box out the other team's biggest player. That's a bad fit.

Bender is the ideal "center" to use against other teams' small lineups. But the traditional center has not gone away, and I don't think it's wise to project that the position will go away. Smarter, I think, to draft a real starting center if you can. I love Collins. We're a small but fervent bunch around here.

The one respect in which I disagree with Frank is the idea that the best way forward is to trade down for Collins. Maybe. If you think another team might jump on him mid-lotto, sure. But the consensus seems to be that at least Fox, Isaac, Tatum and Monk have to come off the board before Collins. I'm finding my way towards wanting to take Fox at 4. You do that, and Bled becomes expendable. If you can move him for a pick in the 10-12 range that nets you Collins, that would be fantastic.

The biggest problem I see with trading down is that even though I think he's a terrible fit, I cannot avoid thinking that at least Tatum, and perhaps also Fox, is a tier above Collins in terms of talent. So if I'm trading down, I want something substantial. Is there a team willing to give up real value to move up?

The ideas I'm entertaining in terms of draft day trades are:
- Swap picks with Orlando and exchange:
Knight for Fournier/
Knight and Tyson for Fournier and Vucevic/
Knight, Tyson, Bled for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin/
Knight, Tyson, Bled, TJ for Fournier, Vucevic, Augustin, Gordon
- Trade Bled and TJ (and perhaps Tyson for filler) for #7 and Rubio (perhaps move Rubio to third team, like DET for #12, perhaps with #12 returned to MIN)
- LA sends #2 and Mozgov to SAC for #5; SAC sends Mozgov to us in a deal that nets us the #10 (permutations here get complicated)
- CHA sends #11 to us along with Nic Batum and Miles Plumlee for TJ, Knight and Chandler
- DET sends #12 in various scenarios; perhaps they give us actual value for Knight in exchange for moving Drummond (to LA? For Mozgov as part of a deal to swap #2 for #4 or #5? Permutations get complicated!
- If Collins is somehow still around at #13, Bled for #13, future pick and filler (hopefully valuable filler that can be sent to a third team)

So yeah, I think there are openings for various deals that can be made to get us Collins in addition to whomever we like at #4. As I say, I'm leaning Fox. I'm open to Tatum if we can move TJ (I'm in the minority on that point, I know), but even then, I don't think he's a great fit here. So at this point, I see four options:

1. Move up for Ball.
2. Take Jackson and try to trade in for Collins.
3. Take Fox and try to trade in for Collins.
4. Trade back for Collins in a move that rids us of at least Brandon Knight.

[Qwigglez]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

We could also slide Chriss to the 5 spot. Really though, I feel like the traditional center position is obsolete. The Warriors have Zaza as center, and he only plays 18 minutes a game. McGee also only plays about 10 minutes a game. For almost half the game the Warriors either have Draymond or Durant play center. It's not a stretch to feel Chriss and Bender could play the 5 spot in certain situations or half the game and possibly have Chandler/Williams play the other half.

[JoRain]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

Why wouldn't Bender be able to play at center? it's all about who he can guard and actually his strength's are not so off for a center. It's more important to use him correctly on Offense which, I don't think Watson has any clue on how to do that. If he's guarding opposing centers on D, it doesn't mean he has to be a post bruiser on O. He's not a full time wing either, so him and Chriss are gonna have to co-exist playing pf/c. it's all about match ups.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

We could also slide Chriss to the 5 spot. Really though, I feel like the traditional center position is obsolete. The Warriors have Zaza as center, and he only plays 18 minutes a game. McGee also only plays about 10 minutes a game. For almost half the game the Warriors either have Draymond or Durant play center. It's not a stretch to feel Chriss and Bender could play the 5 spot in certain situations or half the game and possibly have Chandler/Williams play the other half.

Yeah, but there's a reason Zaza plays those 18 minutes.

We all focus on the death lineup, but do you recall how the Warriors have done against the Warriors when they've started the death lineup? They haven't won with it at all. It's one thing to do it in the middle of the game, when you're up and down, in a rhythm, with the other team's starting center off the court. It's another thing when you're being asked to go 48 minutes without a rim protector, relying on the outside shot from the get go.

I think there's still a place in the NBA for a starting center. And at some point, there will be talent at the C spot again. Maybe Embiid is the harbinger. You still need bigs in the league.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We already got Bender who I'm hoping will fit into the new modern center. I like him a lot more than Mark and Collins. Swing for the fences, if we strike out we are still 4 runs down. If we go for a single we may inch closer, but the opposing team may swing for the fences and will be up more.

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

Why wouldn't Bender be able to play at center? it's all about who he can guard and actually his strength's are not so off for a center. It's more important to use him correctly on Offense which, I don't think Watson has any clue on how to do that. If he's guarding opposing centers on D, it doesn't mean he has to be a post bruiser on O. He's not a full time wing either, so him and Chriss are gonna have to co-exist playing pf/c. it's all about match ups.

He's not a strong side shot blocker (read: not a rim protector). He doesn't have a lot of lower body weight. Not great at keeping true bigs off the glass. In addition, it really minimizes his defensive strengths, which is making reads, playing team defense. The only reason people talk about him as a center is because of his height; the only reason people don't talk about him as a small forward is because of his height. The way he plays and his strengths are clearly more the latter than the former.

[Qwigglez]

If we want a shot blocker and a defensive presence for part-time, then let's just keep Len. I don't think he's motivated enough to care about playing 30 minutes a game. It's silly to want to trade down though, we should be going for BPA, unless we think Collins/Mark is BPA then take them at 4.

[JoRain]

i wish we'd just hang up the 'Bender at Center' rebuttals. Play to the kid's strengths, don't square peg round hole him.

Why wouldn't Bender be able to play at center? it's all about who he can guard and actually his strength's are not so off for a center. It's more important to use him correctly on Offense which, I don't think Watson has any clue on how to do that. If he's guarding opposing centers on D, it doesn't mean he has to be a post bruiser on O. He's not a full time wing either, so him and Chriss are gonna have to co-exist playing pf/c. it's all about match ups.

He's not a strong side shot blocker (read: not a rim protector). He doesn't have a lot of lower body weight. Not great at keeping true bigs off the glass. In addition, it really minimizes his defensive strengths, which is making reads, playing team defense. The only reason people talk about him as a center is because of his height; the only reason people don't talk about him as a small forward is because of his height. The way he plays and his strengths are clearly more the latter than the former.

actually, his rim protection I think is kind of underrated. He's not a prolific shot blocker, but he doesn't have to be with his length and also having pretty good weak side shot blocker in Chriss. I agree about getting stronger, but he needs to do that anyway. On D, his best part is that he can switch on anyone and keep up on p'n'r, which is important. Guarding wings full time is actually negating some of his strengths and I think in long term it is also going to hurt him. And team D is important playing any position.
I'm not saying he can play one now, but I think ultimately his best position is going to be pf/c, especially with his versatility. And as was mentioned, depending on match ups he can switch with Chriss down low as well. He's not and never going to be a typical by any means, but in modern NBA, typical Centers are pretty irrelevant so I don't see a problem with that.

Besides, on Offense you can play him on perimeter easily - you can play 5 out, especially with out cutters for him to feed or you can go down low with Chriss.

[batsmasher]

Why wouldn't Bender be able to play at center? it's all about who he can guard and actually his strength's are not so off for a center. It's more important to use him correctly on Offense which, I don't think Watson has any clue on how to do that. If he's guarding opposing centers on D, it doesn't mean he has to be a post bruiser on O. He's not a full time wing either, so him and Chriss are gonna have to co-exist playing pf/c. it's all about match ups.

He's not a strong side shot blocker (read: not a rim protector). He doesn't have a lot of lower body weight. Not great at keeping true bigs off the glass. In addition, it really minimizes his defensive strengths, which is making reads, playing team defense. The only reason people talk about him as a center is because of his height; the only reason people don't talk about him as a small forward is because of his height. The way he plays and his strengths are clearly more the latter than the former.

actually, his rim protection I think is kind of underrated. He's not a prolific shot blocker, but he doesn't have to be with his length and also having pretty good weak side shot blocker in Chriss. I agree about getting stronger, but he needs to do that anyway. On D, his best part is that he can switch on anyone and keep up on p'n'r, which is important. Guarding wings full time is actually negating some of his strengths and I think in long term it is also going to hurt him. And team D is important playing any position.
I'm not saying he can play one now, but I think ultimately his best position is going to be pf/c, especially with his versatility. And as was mentioned, depending on match ups he can switch with Chriss down low as well. He's not and never going to be a typical by any means, but in modern NBA, typical Centers are pretty irrelevant so I don't see a problem with that.

Besides, on Offense you can play him on perimeter easily - you can play 5 out, especially with out cutters for him to feed or you can go down low with Chriss.

Absolutely agree. The jumper, the switchability, the quick feet are far more valuable at the 5 than the 3. Plus he's shown he can make team passes which could be more valuable than all of the above when playing 5.

I really don't mind us pursuing him playing 3 though. If we can get his ball handling to a point where he can run some 4-5 PnR (as the ball handler) - watch out.