Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

[RaisingArizona]

Harris has NBA talent surrounding him. This is why stats are so misleading at times.

[thamadkant]

I still think the team lacks a real coach that can out players into their place. Someone who will not take crap from some 20 year old. Someone who will make men out the boys the team has.


I'm sick of the free flow CHAOS offense and matador defense... 5 plus years of this crap lol


Chriss should have been sent to D league weeks ago... Jackson should be getting burn at D league too just like all previous rookies. Bender... Ughh

[RaisingArizona]

I still think the team lacks a real coach that can out players into their place. Someone who will not take crap from some 20 year old. Someone who will make men out the boys the team has.


I'm sick of the free flow CHAOS offense and matador defense... 5 plus years of this crap lol


Chriss should have been sent to D league weeks ago... Jackson should be getting burn at D league too just like all previous rookies. Bender... Ughh

We need a Cotton. Someone who will kick the living **** out of them when they play like ****, but then also someone they like, respect and will respond to.

[bigfoot]

Tobias Harris didn't average the almighty 12 ppg by age 20. Clearly a complete bust. They should trade him for Zach Randolph or Manu Ginobli.

Straightforward ignorance and inability to look at the fact that Harris was behind two veteran SFs his first two years and was traded away by the Bucks before he broke out. This is the situation with every player you give as a poor counter example. Butler behind quality players and not getting touchs, never going to get shots over Rose, Deng, Noah, and Boozer. Compare that to Chriss and Bender who have both been starters and given lots of opportunity but just don't step up to the plate take it. Open you eyes and use that little bit of logic that you think you possess and spout off about all the time in your posts. Personally most of your arguments are illogical and make very, very little sense.

[thamadkant]

Harris has NBA talent surrounding him. This is why stats are so misleading at times.

And a strict system where players have roles

Suns are improv 50% of the time... And swotch/pick and roll the other 50 so bad...

[jredsaz]

Tobias Harris didn't average the almighty 12 ppg by age 20. Clearly a complete bust. They should trade him for Zach Randolph or Manu Ginobli.

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

[bigfoot]

Tobias Harris didn't average the almighty 12 ppg by age 20. Clearly a complete bust. They should trade him for Zach Randolph or Manu Ginobli.

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

I never said 12ppg per game by age 20. He's wrong and is blatantly misrepresenting what has been posted. I have said that players who don't score on average 9pts per game in their first two seasons combined, irregardless of age, probably aren't going to turn into all-stars or all-NBA players. Plenty of 21-22 year olds don't cut within their first two seasons. Why would it be any different for 18 year olds.

Also note, Tobias hasn't met either of those two requirements yet. He also didn't get much of an opportunity for playing time his first two season with the Bucks and had he not been traded might already be out of the league. Sadly, Bender and Chriss are barely averaging 5-6 pts in their second season while getting decent minutes and that is pretty damn bad for fans. AtheJ415 is still shaking his pom-poms for those two because they were an integral part of his pro-tank philosophy which is throwing treads at a rapid clip. I hope one of them pans out but not holding my breath for anything other than a role player. Two busts would be the worst case.

[bwgood77]

I wanted Issac too. I still don't get why, if we needed shooting, everyone wanted the one guy who couldn't shoot...

Well, and we need defense. We basically just need two things to improve this team. Offense and defense.

In the words of the great Cotton Fitzimmons. "What the Suns need is better players."

Either the players we have get better or we get (or play) better players. I don't really care which, and I do not care where they were drafted. Look at the Warriors. They had Draymond Green on their roster for two years, and did OK. All of the sudden, because of an injury (to David Lee was it?), he gets thrust into the starting lineup and becomes an all-star.

Did Draymond all of a sudden become good? Or was he overlooked because he was a second round "tweener"?

Do we have potential players like that on our roster?
Davon Reed--Suns brass is very high on him and thinks he will be really good.
Alan Williams--He just puts up the numbers every time he plays. If he was healthy, he might be starting.
Alec Peters--not sure what he will become. I am not looking at his numbers in GLeague. I am looking at his shooting. He can shoot the three VERY well, play team defense, and rebound. He has been consistent with that at every level. That is more than what our present PF's are doing. I could see him really spreading the floor for Warren and Jackson.

We still need a pg. Its the #1 priority of the off-season. I do believe that Trae will probably be on this team come September. We might even take him with our pick, or trade down and take him.

I agree. The Warriors just simply have been drafting great, and have a great system. I mean Jordan Bell is killing it. He started in place of Green last night and last I saw he had like 8 assists. He had 5 blocks one game I think.

And it seemed like people here knew he would be a great pick. I have high hopes for Davon Reed now. The Warriors have done great with 3 and 4 year players. Does that mean it's the blueprint for success? I don't know. I don't think there is a blue print and I think a lot of it comes down to luck. I read once that if OKC had the #1 pick the year Oden and Durant came out, they would have taken Oden and the #2 pick when Westbrook came out, they would have taken Beasley.

It's hard to deny Trae Young's shooting after that last piece I posted. I don't know how high he will go. It will be interesting to see.

[bwgood77]

Tobias Harris didn't average the almighty 12 ppg by age 20. Clearly a complete bust. They should trade him for Zach Randolph or Manu Ginobli.

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

The odds of any player becoming an all star are slim. Particularly any player in the Western Conference not killing it right now.

[bwgood77]

Eh. Harris has made a whopping 13 more threes than Booker this year on 8 more shots. Booker is creating more shots for himself and on Booker's 3's he is only being assisted on 66% of them. Meanwhile, Harris is being assisted on 84% of his 3's. Likely attributing that to having better quality players around him, including Drummond who should be able to suck defenders into the paint leaving Harris with more open shot opportunities.

Regardless of the excuses people want to give him for shooting better, he has hit 44% of his 3s this year. That's great no matter how you slice it. Maybe Booker shoots that well playing with Jackson, Bradley and Drummond, maybe not. Harris also got Lasik Eye Surgery.

Anyway, he's shooting 44% as opposed to 38%. That's significantly better. On high volume. Booker is far younger. I expect Booker to be a better shooter in the long run. My comment was related to them putting him on the block. I don't think they will because he has taken his game to another level. There is talk of Harris perhaps being an all star this year.

Not sure why people are rushing to discount it. He's playing well.

[sunsbum]

Another thing that's affecting our guys is obviously this is Booker's team. When your leader is gone everyone else's job gets harder. Our vets, they've been through through this before, but who's going to step up and help take the scoring burden? "Jared I've dunked once in an NBA game ever"? "Tyson I've never scored in my life outside an alley oop"? "Stone hands Len Austin"? Most of our kids have never known NBA basketball outside of relying heavily on Booker. We're talking a top 10 scorer at 21... I think especially our team, relies on Devin to do so much, right now they're just running around like chickens with their head cut off. That being said It should just make you marvel how mature Bookers game is this early in his career.

[AtheJ415]

Tobias Harris didn't average the almighty 12 ppg by age 20. Clearly a complete bust. They should trade him for Zach Randolph or Manu Ginobli.

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

I never said 12ppg per game by age 20. He's wrong and is blatantly misrepresenting what has been posted. I have said that players who don't score on average 9pts per game in their first two seasons combined, irregardless of age, probably aren't going to turn into all-stars or all-NBA players. Plenty of 21-22 year olds don't cut within their first two seasons. Why would it be any different for 18 year olds.

Also note, Tobias hasn't met either of those two requirements yet. He also didn't get much of an opportunity for playing time his first two season with the Bucks and had he not been traded might already be out of the league. Sadly, Bender and Chriss are barely averaging 5-6 pts in their second season while getting decent minutes and that is pretty damn bad for fans. AtheJ415 is still shaking his pom-poms for those two because they were an integral part of his pro-tank philosophy which is throwing treads at a rapid clip. I hope one of them pans out but not holding my breath for anything other than a role player. Two busts would be the worst case.

Okay, then in their first 2 seasons. Tobias Harris didn't do that either. Also, doing it by age actually helps my argument since Chriss and Bender are as young as you can possibly be in their first 2 seasons, but hey, why use statistical history of the NBA or logic?

Neither were an integral part of my pro tank philosophy. I don't think they are busts like you, but I wanted us to tank better and get higher picks like Ben Simmons and Towns. Guess what? Thanks to us playing the PJ Tuckers and Tyson Chandlers of the world, we ended up with lower picks and had to take those 2.

[jredsaz]

Tobias Harris didn't average the almighty 12 ppg by age 20. Clearly a complete bust. They should trade him for Zach Randolph or Manu Ginobli.

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

The odds of any player becoming an all star are slim. Particularly any player in the Western Conference not killing it right now.

Obviously. That's why teams tank. I'm saying after a season and a half, given their production and the eye test, these two top ten selections respective ceilings have dropped considerably. I think both can still be good NBA players. But the 4th and 8th selections in any draft come with heightened expectations - expectations that Chriss and Bender will fail to meet.

In my judgement, a player like Harris is my new ceiling for the two of them. That changes how I value them.

[bwgood77]

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

The odds of any player becoming an all star are slim. Particularly any player in the Western Conference not killing it right now.

Obviously. That's why teams tank. I'm saying after a season and a half, given their production and the eye test, these two top ten selections respective ceilings have dropped considerably. I think both can still be good NBA players. But the 4th and 8th selections in any draft come with heightened expectations - expectations that Chriss and Bender will fail to meet.

In my judgement, a player like Harris is my new ceiling for the two of them. That changes how I value them.

I think in a top 10, usually about half are complete busts...that might be a more than usual, but there have been some really bad ones. I will be very happy with one starter and one rotation player. Or even just one starter. I liked them both, but I also knew they were VERY raw and both had huge bust potential. I think there is a chance one could become special, but yes, of course every day that doesn't happen, that chance goes down.

Few in that draft drafted 4 or later pass the eye test now. Dunn actually just started playing well. He had a rough go as a rookie, and he was thought of as the most ready guy with a lot of experience. Even the guys in top 3 from last year took until this year to do much. It's still early in the second season, with Bender barely playing in the first. And he didn't play much the previous year with that experienced pro team and is young. I still think their age is a big factor. They both have shown capabilities to do some good things at times. This whole team is kind of a mess from a coaching standpoint, PG standpoint and just overall.

There is A LOT of adjustment coming in. Those that perform quickly like this year are impressive, like Tatum and Kuzma. That's pretty rare. A few others playing well like Bell, John Collins before injury and Markkanen a bit, for this year.

[jredsaz]

I see your sarcasm. Comparing Harris, Chriss, and bender through their 19 and 20 - Chriss and Harris have very similar numbers. Bender is brining up the rear. I think Harris is the absolute best case scenario for either of our second year forwards.

The 12 ppg thing is overrated in general. But the odds of either player becoming an all NBA player are miniscule at this point. The odds of either being an all star are slim.

I never said 12ppg per game by age 20. He's wrong and is blatantly misrepresenting what has been posted. I have said that players who don't score on average 9pts per game in their first two seasons combined, irregardless of age, probably aren't going to turn into all-stars or all-NBA players. Plenty of 21-22 year olds don't cut within their first two seasons. Why would it be any different for 18 year olds.

Also note, Tobias hasn't met either of those two requirements yet. He also didn't get much of an opportunity for playing time his first two season with the Bucks and had he not been traded might already be out of the league. Sadly, Bender and Chriss are barely averaging 5-6 pts in their second season while getting decent minutes and that is pretty damn bad for fans. AtheJ415 is still shaking his pom-poms for those two because they were an integral part of his pro-tank philosophy which is throwing treads at a rapid clip. I hope one of them pans out but not holding my breath for anything other than a role player. Two busts would be the worst case.

Okay, then in their first 2 seasons. Tobias Harris didn't do that either. Also, doing it by age actually helps my argument since Chriss and Bender are as young as you can possibly be in their first 2 seasons, but hey, why use statistical history of the NBA or logic?

Neither were an integral part of my pro tank philosophy. I don't think they are busts like you, but I wanted us to tank better and get higher picks like Ben Simmons and Towns. Guess what? Thanks to us playing the PJ Tuckers and Tyson Chandlers of the world, we ended up with lower picks and had to take those 2.

We had the second best odds and picked fourth last year. Drafted Booker - the Suns player with by far the best odds of being All NBA - at 12.

[bwgood77]

I never said 12ppg per game by age 20. He's wrong and is blatantly misrepresenting what has been posted. I have said that players who don't score on average 9pts per game in their first two seasons combined, irregardless of age, probably aren't going to turn into all-stars or all-NBA players. Plenty of 21-22 year olds don't cut within their first two seasons. Why would it be any different for 18 year olds.

Also note, Tobias hasn't met either of those two requirements yet. He also didn't get much of an opportunity for playing time his first two season with the Bucks and had he not been traded might already be out of the league. Sadly, Bender and Chriss are barely averaging 5-6 pts in their second season while getting decent minutes and that is pretty damn bad for fans. AtheJ415 is still shaking his pom-poms for those two because they were an integral part of his pro-tank philosophy which is throwing treads at a rapid clip. I hope one of them pans out but not holding my breath for anything other than a role player. Two busts would be the worst case.

Okay, then in their first 2 seasons. Tobias Harris didn't do that either. Also, doing it by age actually helps my argument since Chriss and Bender are as young as you can possibly be in their first 2 seasons, but hey, why use statistical history of the NBA or logic?

Neither were an integral part of my pro tank philosophy. I don't think they are busts like you, but I wanted us to tank better and get higher picks like Ben Simmons and Towns. Guess what? Thanks to us playing the PJ Tuckers and Tyson Chandlers of the world, we ended up with lower picks and had to take those 2.

We had the second best odds and picked fourth last year. Drafted Booker - the Suns player with by far the best odds of being All NBA - at 12.

13, and that was luck, because with a higher pick, we probably don't take him. That of course in no way proves later picks are better, which sounds absurd even typing, but sometimes later picks are great, like Jokic, Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, but of course if any GM scouted them correctly or made what in hindsight was the best pick in the top 5, they would have taken those guys.

[jredsaz]

Okay, then in their first 2 seasons. Tobias Harris didn't do that either. Also, doing it by age actually helps my argument since Chriss and Bender are as young as you can possibly be in their first 2 seasons, but hey, why use statistical history of the NBA or logic?

Neither were an integral part of my pro tank philosophy. I don't think they are busts like you, but I wanted us to tank better and get higher picks like Ben Simmons and Towns. Guess what? Thanks to us playing the PJ Tuckers and Tyson Chandlers of the world, we ended up with lower picks and had to take those 2.

We had the second best odds and picked fourth last year. Drafted Booker - the Suns player with by far the best odds of being All NBA - at 12.

13, and that was luck, because with a higher pick, we probably don't take him. That of course in no way proves later picks are better, which sounds absurd even typing, but sometimes later picks are great, like Jokic, Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, but of course if any GM scouted them correctly or made what in hindsight was the best pick in the top 5, they would have taken those guys.

That's my argument. Of course it is better to draft #1 and hypothetically the complete tank will eventually get you there but there are no guarantees and identifying and developing talent is the most important. Unfortunately, McDs regime has been hit and miss with both.

[bwgood77]

We had the second best odds and picked fourth last year. Drafted Booker - the Suns player with by far the best odds of being All NBA - at 12.

13, and that was luck, because with a higher pick, we probably don't take him. That of course in no way proves later picks are better, which sounds absurd even typing, but sometimes later picks are great, like Jokic, Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, but of course if any GM scouted them correctly or made what in hindsight was the best pick in the top 5, they would have taken those guys.

That's my argument. Of course it is better to draft #1 and hypothetically the complete tank will eventually get you there but there are no guarantees and identifying and developing talent is the most important. Unfortunately, McDs regime has been hit and miss with both.

Yes, I am not a tanker, but I wanted us to try and develop a foundation and young team and develop young guys, play them, allow them to get better, and knew that would likely lead to another high pick. I didn't want them to get blocked by an older guy to try and win now without a solid supporting cast and felt that was our best chance at a solid future moving forward. Unfortunately, so far it doesn't look good, but I think so many are impatient with guys just drafted or just playing that we shouldn't be just deciding these guys are trash. They have all shown some good traits, along with their bad ones.

We have Mike James, who plays very well at times, but he shoots a lot. As do Booker and Warren, and of course we want those two shooting mostly but we need to give the other guys chances, even if they are struggling. They need to work through those struggles. If they end up busts, so be it. I'm fine pursuing free agents this summer but I still wouldn't give up on any of our guys from the last two drafts, even next summer. I knew they'd take time if they were going to pan out. As Miyagi said from day one in his sig....please don't give up on these young raw guys after a year or two. It's been a little over a year and one was injured when we went young last year after trading Tucker, and of course Chriss started and mostly impressed, especially in relation to expectations.

[jredsaz]

13, and that was luck, because with a higher pick, we probably don't take him. That of course in no way proves later picks are better, which sounds absurd even typing, but sometimes later picks are great, like Jokic, Draymond, Giannis, Gobert, but of course if any GM scouted them correctly or made what in hindsight was the best pick in the top 5, they would have taken those guys.

That's my argument. Of course it is better to draft #1 and hypothetically the complete tank will eventually get you there but there are no guarantees and identifying and developing talent is the most important. Unfortunately, McDs regime has been hit and miss with both.

Yes, I am not a tanker, but I wanted us to try and develop a foundation and young team and develop young guys, play them, allow them to get better, and knew that would likely lead to another high pick. I didn't want them to get blocked by an older guy to try and win now without a solid supporting cast and felt that was our best chance at a solid future moving forward. Unfortunately, so far it doesn't look good, but I think so many are impatient with guys just drafted or just playing that we shouldn't be just deciding these guys are trash. They have all shown some good traits, along with their bad ones.

We have Mike James, who plays very well at times, but he shoots a lot. As do Booker and Warren, and of course we want those two shooting mostly but we need to give the other guys chances, even if they are struggling. They need to work through those struggles. If they end up busts, so be it. I'm fine pursuing free agents this summer but I still wouldn't give up on any of our guys from the last two drafts, even next summer. I knew they'd take time if they were going to pan out. As Miyagi said from day one in his sig....please don't give up on these young raw guys after a year or two. It's been a little over a year and one was injured when we went young last year after trading Tucker, and of course Chriss started and mostly impressed, especially in relation to expectations.

Hey man I'm not giving up. Just being realistic. If Chriss or Bender end up being as good as Tobias Harris in five years ill be happy but if Detriot calls and says everyone is available (like they reportedly did last year) I'm more inclined to listen than I was last year.

[Kerrsed]

Bulls win another. Thats 5 straight!

We are now only 1 game out of the 3rd pick.