Game 61: Phoenix Suns (31-29) @ Miami Heat (25-33)

[JTrain]

2nd one is shopped?

Nope: http://www.arizonasports.com/41/1812369 ... he-Numbers

[mixerball]

2nd one is shopped?

at first i didnt even realize that there are two morrises on the pics

[NavLDO]

This is the Suns forum.
Yet I see Dragic vs non Dragic fans more.

Personally, it's done... Dragic wears Heat jersey now and he is paid to play AGAINST the Suns now. He doesn't matter anymore.

People defending the FO has reasons to do it I suppose since they are still putting their efforts in trying to make the team work. In the end, the team matters. So you have to back the FO and hope they pull off a good job.

This is the Suns forum... SUNS.
So I hope people discuss things that relate to SUNS.

Good luck to Dragic, but he doesnt matter anymore to the SUNS.

I nominate this for "RealGM Suns Forum 2015 Post of the Year"!! No the FO is not perfect and they made mistakes, but until they are fired, I will support their efforts. We just got insanely young in the matter of 2 hours at the end of the trade deadline. How well does everyone here expect the Suns to do, with a PG with just over 1 year starting experience, but is already a top 10 PG in the league. Our starting 5 has less than a half year of starting experience. Our starting 4 has less than a year starting experience. Our starting SG (Knight) has been in our system for what, 6 games. The starter we have with the most starting experience is probably our least talented player in Tucker. So honestly, where is the disconnect with why we are playing poorly? Yep, we're gonna stink for awhile. Had you asked McD and Horny what our starting 5 and "2nd String" players would be at this point, at the beginning of the year, I doubt that list would be even 50% accurate.

You Dragic fanboys out there need to recognize what he did--he went from "I'm gonna opt out and sign in Phx", to demanding a trade 2 days prior to the deadline. Why? Yes, McD signed too many PGs, but what was he supposed to do!??! Bledsoe created a difficult situation, McD improvised, and it backfired, but that's no excuse to quit on the team mid-season, and essentially demand a trade and limit McD's options to 3 teams. Friggin' suck it up for a couple of more months and give McD the chance to rectify the situation, which he did BTW. If he had such an issue with Bledsoe, say so before the season and work with McD to find the right team for him, instead of playing during the season, gripe and moan about the system and other players because YOU aren't performing well--because in the end, THAT'S exactly what happened. He blamed everyone else but himself when things didn't go his way.

If anyone here doesn't like McD, or Horny, but really like Dragic, than please, spare us Suns' fans the drama, and go be a Heat fan--you'll be much happier, I'm sure, and so will the rest of us Suns' fans. Expecting a 25-57 team from 20 months ago to improve to be a top 4 seed is flat out unrealistic. I've said it more than a few times. If by '16/'17 season we haven't improved into a viable playoff team, then yes, maybe then it's time to look at "new mgmt," but until then, for goodness sakes, be patient--the team is going to have ups and downs, and that's exactly what's happening--we've had ups and some downs--it happens.

[kennydorglas]

This is the Suns forum.
Yet I see Dragic vs non Dragic fans more.

Personally, it's done... Dragic wears Heat jersey now and he is paid to play AGAINST the Suns now. He doesn't matter anymore.

People defending the FO has reasons to do it I suppose since they are still putting their efforts in trying to make the team work. In the end, the team matters. So you have to back the FO and hope they pull off a good job.

This is the Suns forum... SUNS.
So I hope people discuss things that relate to SUNS.

Good luck to Dragic, but he doesnt matter anymore to the SUNS.

I nominate this for "RealGM Suns Forum 2015 Post of the Year"!! No the FO is not perfect and they made mistakes, but until they are fired, I will support their efforts. We just got insanely young in the matter of 2 hours at the end of the trade deadline. How well does everyone here expect the Suns to do, with a PG with just over 1 year starting experience, but is already a top 10 PG in the league. Our starting 5 has less than a half year of starting experience. Our starting 4 has less than a year starting experience. Our starting SG (Knight) has been in our system for what, 6 games. The starter we have with the most starting experience is probably our least talented player in Tucker. So honestly, where is the disconnect with why we are playing poorly? Yep, we're gonna stink for awhile. Had you asked McD and Horny what our starting 5 and "2nd String" players would be at this point, at the beginning of the year, I doubt that list would be even 50% accurate.

You Dragic fanboys out there need to recognize what he did--he went from "I'm gonna opt out and sign in Phx", to demanding a trade 2 days prior to the deadline. Why? Yes, McD signed too many PGs, but what was he supposed to do!??! Bledsoe created a difficult situation, McD improvised, and it backfired, but that's no excuse to quit on the team mid-season, and essentially demand a trade and limit McD's options to 3 teams. Friggin' suck it up for a couple of more months and give McD the chance to rectify the situation, which he did BTW. If he had such an issue with Bledsoe, say so before the season and work with McD to find the right team for him, instead of playing during the season, gripe and moan about the system and other players because YOU aren't performing well--because in the end, THAT'S exactly what happened. He blamed everyone else but himself when things didn't go his way.

If anyone here doesn't like McD, or Horny, but really like Dragic, than please, spare us Suns' fans the drama, and go be a Heat fan--you'll be much happier, I'm sure, and so will the rest of us Suns' fans. Expecting a 25-57 team from 20 months ago to improve to be a top 4 seed is flat out unrealistic. I've said it more than a few times. If by '16/'17 season we haven't improved into a viable playoff team, then yes, maybe then it's time to look at "new mgmt," but until then, for goodness sakes, be patient--the team is going to have ups and downs, and that's exactly what's happening--we've had ups and some downs--it happens.

+1111111111111111111111

[bwgood77]

. Yes, McD signed too many PGs, but what was he supposed to do!??! .

I think most everyone agrees, given the situation, the trade was necessary, whether they liked or didn't like Dragic. He needed to go at that point.

[In Len We Trust]

We have the core and assets to build a championship team. McD has us in a good position. If we make the right roster moves this off season as well as next year then we should be a good coach away from winning it all.

[Kerrsed]

Everyone needs to chill on the personal attacks. Attacking a post is fine, dissect it if you must, but attacking posters will not be tolerated.

This goes to BOTH SIDES of the Dragon Debate.

[King4Day]

Nash was a pass-first PG who played off the ball after he passed and was a willing shooter if the opportunity came up.
Dragic is a scoring guard. He needs the ball to be successful.

Phoenix had plenty of time to decide if they wanted him and they chose to 'want' him. Goran felt differently. He claims there were issues for a long time but waited last minute to demand a trade.
The team DID care. They tried putting pieces around him. When it didn't work out, they talked to him and even suggested dealing Thomas but he had his foot out the door already.
And to say he didn't want to play with Bledsoe too was selfish. It proved he didn't care about winning and just wanted to be the man. You can't win a title with Goran as your primary option.

The Suns brought in his brother to make him happy and would have probably matched the highest offer he got this coming summer. He knew he was going to get paid regardless but went the direction he did instead.

People have the right to rank on him if they want. This is the Suns team forum and not the NBA board where your lecture is more appropriate.

Are you insane? Nash was a pass first PG, but he had the ball in his hands the majority of the time .... not just sitting on a wing.

Seriously the remnant shill-ism around here is baffling. When you WANT a player around you don't make him play out of position and throw stupid money at other players who play the same position he does, not to mention draft another guy. Nor do you reduce his ball handling responsibilities and playing time.

My comment clearly came off wrong based fthe responses.
I'm trying to say, he never complained when Shaq got involved and his role changed. He tried to adjust.
I'm sure he knew it wasn't working but he allowed the front office to make changes and it worked.
Based on what we are hearing/reading, Goran didn't allow our GM that luxury.

[MrMiyagi]

As a PHX Suns fan I am still extremely excited about the future of this team. We have good players, youth, assets, and players on good contracts. We have a group of players who have a great work ethic. We are just a star away from really competing. This team has depth, scoring from every position, a few defensive minded guys, and can heat up in an instance. What we're lacking, and it's something that I'm sure we'll address this offseason, is a veteran with good leadership qualities, interior rebounding, and a better defensive 2nd unit. All of these things can be addressed in the offseason. We are in a good place as a franchise. The future of this team is not sinking along with this season. Relax. Enjoy watching the rest of the season while guys start to mesh.

Welcome to the optimistic collective. Prepare to wade through pages and pages of "constructive criticism" by everyone else.

[MrMiyagi]

Everyone needs to chill on the personal attacks. Attacking a post is fine, dissect it if you must, but attacking posters will not be tolerated.

This goes to BOTH SIDES of the Dragon Debate.

Why is Kendall Marshall face the U and C?

[MrMiyagi]

This is the Suns forum.
Yet I see Dragic vs non Dragic fans more.

Personally, it's done... Dragic wears Heat jersey now and he is paid to play AGAINST the Suns now. He doesn't matter anymore.

People defending the FO has reasons to do it I suppose since they are still putting their efforts in trying to make the team work. In the end, the team matters. So you have to back the FO and hope they pull off a good job.

This is the Suns forum... SUNS.
So I hope people discuss things that relate to SUNS.

Good luck to Dragic, but he doesnt matter anymore to the SUNS.

Sometimes, you make too much sense 1UPZ.

[nevetsov]

Did we ever find out why Wright never re-entered the game? Coaches decision?

[Revived]

Nash was a pass-first PG who played off the ball after he passed and was a willing shooter if the opportunity came up.
Dragic is a scoring guard. He needs the ball to be successful.

Phoenix had plenty of time to decide if they wanted him and they chose to 'want' him. Goran felt differently. He claims there were issues for a long time but waited last minute to demand a trade.
The team DID care. They tried putting pieces around him. When it didn't work out, they talked to him and even suggested dealing Thomas but he had his foot out the door already.
And to say he didn't want to play with Bledsoe too was selfish. It proved he didn't care about winning and just wanted to be the man. You can't win a title with Goran as your primary option.

The Suns brought in his brother to make him happy and would have probably matched the highest offer he got this coming summer. He knew he was going to get paid regardless but went the direction he did instead.

People have the right to rank on him if they want. This is the Suns team forum and not the NBA board where your lecture is more appropriate.

Goran never claimed there were issues for a long time. He never said he didn't want to play with Bledsoe either. This is vague second hand information twisted by the front office to save face. It's amazing how many people believe this BS.

Dragic said, during last year, when they were bringing in Bledsoe, he was wondering what the future held for him. Then he said he then realized the plan and was happy and it worked well. He continually said in the offseason that he would check free agency (smart) but he imagine he would be back in Phoenix. The IT signing, and the fact that he RARELY EVER ran the offense, is what obviously bothered him. He looked unhappy this year. He didn't look unhappy last year. If you didn't see this you are lying to yourself.

Both Bledsoe and Dragic played plenty of minutes when the other rested last year and ran the offense. That rarely EVER happened with Dragic this year and he was taken off the ball. He is MUCH more valuable with the ball, as evidence here...

Pelton: Dragic is worth the money

After news of Dragic's desire to be traded broke Tuesday night, I tweeted "buyer beware," noting that Dragic will be 29 by the time he becomes a free agent this summer, and his 2013-14 performance looks suspiciously fluky compared to the rest of his career. But a funny thing happened when I went to find evidence for my argument: It turns out I was completely wrong, at least about whether Dragic's return to earth is better explained by regression or the Suns' glut of point guards.

Part of my logic was that relatively few of Dragic's minutes have come with Thomas; he mostly has played with Bledsoe, the same starting lineup as last season. This is true; according to NBAwowy.com, nearly two-thirds of Dragic's minutes have come next to Bledsoe with Thomas on the bench. However, that is a change from last season. Because of Bledsoe's knee surgery and coach Jeff Hornacek's ability to offset the minutes of the two point guards he then had on the roster, Dragic played more than twice as many minutes with Bledsoe on the bench as on the court, according to NBA.com/Stats.

Moreover, the difference between Dragic's performance with and without Bledsoe is staggering. Basically, Dragic's All-NBA nod can be attributed entirely to how he performed as Phoenix's lone point guard. Check out a comparison of his numbers by backcourt:

Dragic 2013-14 Performance
Role P36 A36 Usg TS% Win% WARP
Lone PG 22.1 6.9 .257 .622 .658 9.1
W/Bledsoe 18.2 4.4 .226 .565 .505 1.7
With the ball in his hands more frequently, Dragic created more of his own offense and set up teammates more frequently. Yet he also defied the typical relationship between usage and efficiency by improving his true shooting percentage dramatically as well. When Bledsoe was on the court with him, Dragic was about an average player. (League average for win percentage, the per-minute version of my wins above replacement player [WARP] metric, is .500.) With Bledsoe on the bench, Dragic had the league's 11th-best winning percentage.

This season, that issue has been exacerbated by Thomas' presence. It's no longer possible for Hornacek to stagger minutes so only one point guard is on the court at a time -- Dragic has played barely 100 minutes all season without either Bledsoe or Thomas alongside him, per NBAwowy.com.

Dragic 2014-15 Performance
Role P36 A36 Usg TS% Win% WARP
W/Bledsoe 17.2 4.0 .216 .563 .504 2.1
W/Thomas 15.5 3.4 .204 .517 .420 0.0
W/3 PG 14.4 3.5 .172 .614 .416 0.0
Lone PG 20.9 7.4 .245 .666 .598 0.4
Dragic has played about the same with Bledsoe as he did last season. But next to Thomas, a more ball-dominant point guard, Dragic's per-minute ratings drop to replacement level. He's been relegated to spotting up, sending his usage rate plummeting -- particularly with all three point guards on the court together. In the few opportunities Dragic has had the point all to himself, he's generally performed like last season, with the exception of a small-sample spike in his turnover rate. Dragic's per-36 averages as the lone point have been All-Star-caliber. Per Basketball-Reference.com, just three players are averaging at least 20.0 points and 7.0 assists per 36 minutes this season: Stephen Curry, LeBron James and Russell Westbrook.

Whatever team acquires Dragic can't expect this level of performance for the life of his next contract. His age is still a concern. Players rated as similar by my SCHOENE projection system saw their WARP totals drop by more than 20 percent between their age-29 and age-30 seasons. A four-year deal for the maximum salary would likely prove an overpay, even with the cap due to rise dramatically.

The right fit also will be crucial. Dragic won't be able to dominate the ball playing next to Kobe Bryant with the Lakers or in the Knicks' triangle offense, creating some of the same issues produced by the Suns' current glut of point guards. But if Dragic gets a chance to play primarily with the ball, the rest of the league should beware.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/ ... orth-money

He was smart to get into a situation where he will likely handle the ball MUCH more. Sure his usage rate hasn't been really high yet, but he is learning their offense and he will run the team when Wade rests and perhaps retire in the future. Miami wanted to utilize him correctly and allow him to start at pg. Wade has learned to play off the ball quite a bit the last few seasons, so it will likely work well for him.

God damn it bwgood, quit brining facts into this discussion!!! It's so much easier to just bash Dragic with the whole "This is all his fault, he was a bi**ch and a c*nt, we call it ****. Our FO clearly did the right thing in signing and drafting every PG they could after their starting guard won MIP, got all- NBA recognition and became the most popular Sun among NBA fans and players since Nash.

God I'm so happy that loser isn't here anymore, look at how bad he's struggling in Miami even without Bosh & look at all the success we're having in Phoenix.

I saw it in Goran's eyes yesterday, he was clearly jealous of the Suns.

[MilotheSlayer]

As a PHX Suns fan I am still extremely excited about the future of this team. We have good players, youth, assets, and players on good contracts. We have a group of players who have a great work ethic. We are just a star away from really competing. This team has depth, scoring from every position, a few defensive minded guys, and can heat up in an instance. What we're lacking, and it's something that I'm sure we'll address this offseason, is a veteran with good leadership qualities, interior rebounding, and a better defensive 2nd unit. All of these things can be addressed in the offseason. We are in a good place as a franchise. The future of this team is not sinking along with this season. Relax. Enjoy watching the rest of the season while guys start to mesh.

Welcome to the optimistic collective. Prepare to wade through pages and pages of "constructive criticism" by everyone else.

For this being the Phoenix suns fan forum their definitely is a lot of anti-Suns org. Shun the non believers!!

[TeamTragic]

This thread and this forum have gone to ****. I'm not really surprised by the fact that we are losing games. Our "star player" decided to take a dump on the FO and now we have to restart the entire process.

Having said that you guys are toxic and I hope you hit your head on the door when you leave the house

[bwgood77]

This thread and this forum have gone to ****. I'm not really surprised by the fact that we are losing games. Our "star player" decided to take a dump on the FO and now we have to restart the entire process.

Having said that you guys are toxic and I hope you hit your head on the door when you leave the house

It has gone down the ****. Lets try and figure out who has signed up in the last couple of weeks so we can pinpoint it.

[lilfishi22]

Sounded like a pretty heated game. Any other highlights other than Len V Whiteside, Goran/Morris flagrant and Morris/Heat Player #6 flagrant?

[bwgood77]

Sounded like a pretty heated game. Any other highlights other than Len V Whiteside, Goran/Morris flagrant and Morris/Heat Player #6 flagrant?

Tyler Johnson with a career high 26 on over 75% shooting along with 4 steals.

[kennydorglas]

Sounded like a pretty heated game. Any other highlights other than Len V Whiteside, Goran/Morris flagrant and Morris/Heat Player #6 flagrant?

nah, it was a really weird game (tyler johnson career game and beasley destroying mook)

[thamadkant]

Beasley *matured-up* looked the goods.. as in impressive. He could be a valuable off-the bench SF/PF for them.