ImageImageImage

Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young players

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

JDLAW
Suns Forum CBA and Legal Expert
Posts: 2,509
And1: 1,301
Joined: May 08, 2012

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#81 » by JDLAW » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:32 pm

Scutt wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:
Scutt wrote: Dragic and Green are not old by any means, but they are what they are at this point. I don't see Dragic ever matching last years numbers again, unless we let him be the #1 guy and where will that get this team?


Dragic would and will match his play of last year (many times over) when McDonough gives him the keys, after the Bledsoe+ blockbuster trade that nets the Suns 1st rate frontline player. When that happens PHX will start heading upward again...that's where.

Right now, Goran can't be that Goran a lot of the time due to the backcourt clutter and inconsistent roles.


Again I ask, where is this team going to go if you "give the keys" to Goran Dragic and have him as your best player? For him to average 20 and 6, that's what has to be done. He has to be your #1 guy, handling the ball all the time, to put up those stats. If getting Dragic back to that means shipping out Bledsoe, who is younger and a much better defender, than this team is never going to sniff the playoffs. Bledsoe just turned 25 and is already outplaying Dragic this year. He is younger, and already locked up to a long term deal, I certainly don't want to trade him in favor of Dragic. I would much rather see Green, Thomas, or both moved. 20 and 6 from your best player wont cut it in this league, Goran is not taking his game to the next level, Bledsoe has that chance still.


Stop with the nonsense between Dragic and Bledsoe. It is not a competition between the two. By the way neither are outplaying the other at this point in the season.

Getting back to where we were last year is not going to happen because Frye is not here. He meant a lot more to this team than some of you gave him credit for.

What we need are 4 things: 1) less one-on-one play - better ball movement, 2) fewer line-up variations - let players get used to playing consistently with one another, 3) adjustment in the starting line-up by adding Len and putting Plumlee on the bench, and 4) getting our centers more offensive touches - it goes with #3.

#4 might be most important because it will keep the bigs more involved in the defense and on the boards if they have a few meaningful touches on the offensive end. Len has a nice mid range jumper and involving him in pick and roll/pick and pop from the top of the key or side will free him up for some good looks and will open up the congestion in the lane.

I move Len into the starting line-up because he has the offensive ability described above whereas Plumlee does not and with Tucker's limited offense now in the starting line-up, Len is better suited to start.

Movement - no standing around watching some one pound the ball into the court. There is way too much of this. There is also way too many possessions were one player dribbles the ball up court and forces up a shot without the ball ever being touched by another player.
NavLDO
Suns Forum Defensive Player of the Year
Posts: 2,749
And1: 1,436
Joined: Aug 25, 2014
     

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#82 » by NavLDO » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:52 pm

^
Agree with a lot of what you said. And while you highlighted #4 as most important, I'd almost say that #2 is the most important. Let's let these guys get some chemistry with each other. I can understand the first 12-15 games of the season make a lot of rotation changes as the HC is trying to figure what lineups work bets with which offenses/defensive schemes, etc. But by this point, we should have our starting 5 figured out by now, and Len should absolutely be part of it, #3 on your list. Len should be prepared by now to play 25 minutes a night; he also needs some burn with our starters and against opposing starters.

And when possible, make multiple player substitutions at the same time so everyone knows their roles. I know injuries and foul trouble may affect this to some degree, but have a plan, is all I'm saying.
JDLAW
Suns Forum CBA and Legal Expert
Posts: 2,509
And1: 1,301
Joined: May 08, 2012

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#83 » by JDLAW » Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:59 pm

NavLDO wrote:^
Agree with a lot of what you said. And while you highlighted #4 as most important, I'd almost say that #2 is the most important. Let's let these guys get some chemistry with each other. I can understand the first 12-15 games of the season make a lot of rotation changes as the HC is trying to figure what lineups work bets with which offenses/defensive schemes, etc. But by this point, we should have our starting 5 figured out by now, and Len should absolutely be part of it, #3 on your list. Len should be prepared by now to play 25 minutes a night; he also needs some burn with our starters and against opposing starters.

And when possible, make multiple player substitutions at the same time so everyone knows their roles. I know injuries and foul trouble may affect this to some degree, but have a plan, is all I'm saying.



Agree with your astute observation on #2. They are all very important but 2 and 4 stand out to me. We have to let our best players play through their ups and downs as necessary - that is why I believe Dragic and Bledsoe's play has elevated since Thomas' injury. There is a comfort level that they will get back on the court even if they are having off-nights.

As for Len's playing time - I'll agree and i think this happens with a consistent line-up. Twenty five minutes is a good place to be for him. Make the minutes consistent Dragic and Bledsoe and see if chemistry develops to get him more consistently involved on the offense. I think he is healthy, especially the feet. Since the target is 24-25 minutes, he can play through foul trouble - he has 6 of them.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,452
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#84 » by Revived » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:35 pm

We lost to the f***ing Pistons at home and TJ Warren gets another DNP.

Is there any good reason to not play a guy like him when guys like Thomas & IT are chucking away bricks?

Warren's the one guy who has potential to score without having to dominate the ball and yet he's glued to the bench.

If Warren was a selfish b***ch and did ISO all the time, I bet he would be in our rotation getting good minutes.

Seriously though, did Warren actually bang Hornacek's cute daughter Abby? That's the only explanation that makes any sense as to why he gets DNPs.
JMac1
Suns Forum Training Specialist
Posts: 10,032
And1: 4,004
Joined: May 23, 2009

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#85 » by JMac1 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:16 pm

My favorite is Len is not allowed to play threw mistakes because we think we are playing for a playoff spot. Don't want to lose our seeding at the expense of letting the #5 pick in the draft prove how good or bad he is on a consistent basis.

And God forbid he touches the ball on offense outside of a rebound!
Damkac
Analyst
Posts: 3,143
And1: 3,062
Joined: Apr 18, 2011
Location: Poland

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#86 » by Damkac » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:18 am

Meanwhile in 1st quarter vs Pistons the whole team played like their only goal is to help Miles gets some points.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,452
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#87 » by Revived » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:09 am

This is what the Suns should be f**Ing doing. God damn it, this sorry ass team is making me jealous of the Timberwolves, that's right the f***ing TIMBERWOLVES

Flip Saunders headed into the season hopeful that it would be more of a "retool" with a "blended" roster.

Now you look at a situation where we might be going into a rebuild, which changes the dynamics of everything,” Saunders said.

The Wolves could look to trade veterans such as Martin, Corey Brewer, Thaddeus Young and Mo Williams, while opening up more playing time for Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine, Anthony Bennett, Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... -Of-Retool
JMac1
Suns Forum Training Specialist
Posts: 10,032
And1: 4,004
Joined: May 23, 2009

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#88 » by JMac1 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:36 pm

SF88 wrote:This is what the Suns should be f**Ing doing. God damn it, this sorry ass team is making me jealous of the Timberwolves, that's right the f***ing TIMBERWOLVES

Flip Saunders headed into the season hopeful that it would be more of a "retool" with a "blended" roster.

Now you look at a situation where we might be going into a rebuild, which changes the dynamics of everything,” Saunders said.

The Wolves could look to trade veterans such as Martin, Corey Brewer, Thaddeus Young and Mo Williams, while opening up more playing time for Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine, Anthony Bennett, Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... -Of-Retool


:nod:

Yep. You have to see what yo have in the young guys sooner rather than later, or you will be like the Kings, rebuilding for 12 years and counting!!
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,258
And1: 24,608
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#89 » by lilfishi22 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:12 pm

SF88 wrote:This is what the Suns should be f**Ing doing. God damn it, this sorry ass team is making me jealous of the Timberwolves, that's right the f***ing TIMBERWOLVES

Flip Saunders headed into the season hopeful that it would be more of a "retool" with a "blended" roster.

Now you look at a situation where we might be going into a rebuild, which changes the dynamics of everything,” Saunders said.

The Wolves could look to trade veterans such as Martin, Corey Brewer, Thaddeus Young and Mo Williams, while opening up more playing time for Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine, Anthony Bennett, Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... -Of-Retool


This is the Wolves 3rd rebuild in 7 seasons. Just sayin'
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,452
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#90 » by Revived » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:12 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
SF88 wrote:This is what the Suns should be f**Ing doing. God damn it, this sorry ass team is making me jealous of the Timberwolves, that's right the f***ing TIMBERWOLVES

Flip Saunders headed into the season hopeful that it would be more of a "retool" with a "blended" roster.

Now you look at a situation where we might be going into a rebuild, which changes the dynamics of everything,” Saunders said.

The Wolves could look to trade veterans such as Martin, Corey Brewer, Thaddeus Young and Mo Williams, while opening up more playing time for Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine, Anthony Bennett, Shabazz Muhammad and Gorgui Dieng.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/23 ... -Of-Retool


This is the Wolves 3rd rebuild in 7 seasons. Just sayin'

That's what happens when you have guys like David Kahn as GM.
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,258
And1: 24,608
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#91 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:15 am

SF88 wrote:That's what happens when you have guys like David Kahn as GM.

True but I'm not exactly keen for another rebuild after starting our last season. And looking at the Wolves as rebuilding inspiration already discredits your suggestions for a rebuild.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,452
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#92 » by Revived » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:23 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
SF88 wrote:That's what happens when you have guys like David Kahn as GM.

True but I'm not exactly keen for another rebuild after starting our last season. And looking at the Wolves as rebuilding inspiration already discredits your suggestions for a rebuild.

Who cares, Wolves have new management now. Are you seriously telling me that you don't think having Wiggins, Lavine, Bennett, Young, Dieng and Muhammad is a good plan?

Sure bunch of those guys are probably not gonna live up to the hype but chances are at least 1 or 2 of them will work out.
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,258
And1: 24,608
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#93 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:03 am

SF88 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
SF88 wrote:That's what happens when you have guys like David Kahn as GM.

True but I'm not exactly keen for another rebuild after starting our last season. And looking at the Wolves as rebuilding inspiration already discredits your suggestions for a rebuild.

Who cares, Wolves have new management now. Are you seriously telling me that you don't think having Wiggins, Lavine, Bennett, Young, Dieng and Muhammad is a good plan?

Sure bunch of those guys are probably not gonna live up to the hype but chances are at least 1 or 2 of them will work out.

We got new management literally a season ago. Or is that whole camp "played out" already?

Wolves can afford to go through rebuild after rebuild unlike us for one reason: they don't put butts in seats with wins but with hype. Every time they rebuild, they can sell it as a new start and that's how they've been running their franchise for a very long time. They were a bottom 5 in attendance for most seasons post KG-trade/rebuild until the first season with Rubio where they actually hit 15th in the league. They sold their fans on the Rubio/Love/Pek hype and they got the results management wanted but then it plummeted back down to the bottom 10 the following season and last season they ranked 27th even though it was their best season since 2004. These guys are desperate for a rebuild not because they want to be a competitive team but because they want to build hype and put asses in seats again.

We can't use the Wolves and their myriad of top 10 picks over the years as a reason we should be rebuilding because clearly, they aren't going anywhere any time soon.
User avatar
kennydorglas
Suns Forum Statistical Savant
Posts: 8,898
And1: 6,127
Joined: Jul 31, 2012
Location: Bauru SP
Contact:
       

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#94 » by kennydorglas » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:25 am

The 'young guys time' is coming.
This team is completely broken
"I got nothing to prove in this league. I’m a max player, and I’ll continue to be a max player."
Five foot Eighton

“No matter what you do or how you do it, as long as you have true passion you will succeed.”
Luis “WEEZY” Egurrola
User avatar
sunskerr
General Manager
Posts: 9,800
And1: 5,984
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
 

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#95 » by sunskerr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:58 am

I flip flopped on Alex Len, not being sure on whether he should start or not. I think I've finally joined the side of he should start. And everyone else should too because the case for him is quite obvious:

For one, Miles Plumlee has not been very good. It's not far-fetched to say Len is already better (though you could make a case for Plumlee). Second of all, if Plumlee has been better it certainly isn't by a significant margin. Alex Len, being 21 and the 5th pick in the draft and having somewhat consistently shown the flashes of being a good player this year must have priority over Plumlee (26 years).

What I'm trying to say is that we certainly don't lose much ground (if any at all) by starting Len over Plumlee and the potential rewards are greater. I still don't support Warren starting because I think Tucker is far better (but that's another post).
User avatar
SunsFanSSOL
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,841
And1: 884
Joined: Jun 10, 2013
     

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#96 » by SunsFanSSOL » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:13 am

ChrisInAZ wrote:
Scutt wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:
Dragic would and will match his play of last year (many times over) when McDonough gives him the keys, after the Bledsoe+ blockbuster trade that nets the Suns 1st rate frontline player. When that happens PHX will start heading upward again...that's where.

Right now, Goran can't be that Goran a lot of the time due to the backcourt clutter and inconsistent roles.


Again I ask, where is this team going to go if you "give the keys" to Goran Dragic and have him as your best player? For him to average 20 and 6, that's what has to be done. He has to be your #1 guy, handling the ball all the time, to put up those stats. If getting Dragic back to that means shipping out Bledsoe, who is younger and a much better defender, than this team is never going to sniff the playoffs. Bledsoe just turned 25 and is already outplaying Dragic this year. He is younger, and already locked up to a long term deal, I certainly don't want to trade him in favor of Dragic. I would much rather see Green, Thomas, or both moved.


I'd rather keep Dragic for the long haul if forced to choose. I recognize EB great talent, but I'll keep Goran and translate Bled into the needed goods. Bledsoe gets the Suns more return.

Don't see a trade anytime soon, but the FO will be patient. Never was about this year anyway. No panic.


Choosing Dragic over Bledsoe will just translate to the Suns being a perennial 9th seed.
RunDogGun
No Sham, More Cam
Posts: 17,891
And1: 5,437
Joined: Jun 27, 2009
Location: Beyond the Sun

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#97 » by RunDogGun » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:02 am

Can this stupid thread be closed now? We had almost all our super young guys play in the first quarter.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,452
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#98 » by Revived » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:15 am

Lol yes we finally had ONE game in which they got solid burn so let's end the discussion...um no.

Warren and Len should be getting 25+ EVERY single night, not just once in a blue moon or in blowouts or when a guy is out with injury.
phrazbit
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 655
Joined: Oct 28, 2012

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#99 » by phrazbit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:24 am

The Timberwolves were also dead last in the conference when they came to that conclusion, thinking the Suns are stupid for not following their example while being in a playoff spot at the time is... well... a word this forum won't let me use.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,452
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Suns need to stop neglecting to develop their young play 

Post#100 » by Revived » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:42 am

SunsFanSSOL wrote:
ChrisInAZ wrote:
Scutt wrote:
Again I ask, where is this team going to go if you "give the keys" to Goran Dragic and have him as your best player? For him to average 20 and 6, that's what has to be done. He has to be your #1 guy, handling the ball all the time, to put up those stats. If getting Dragic back to that means shipping out Bledsoe, who is younger and a much better defender, than this team is never going to sniff the playoffs. Bledsoe just turned 25 and is already outplaying Dragic this year. He is younger, and already locked up to a long term deal, I certainly don't want to trade him in favor of Dragic. I would much rather see Green, Thomas, or both moved.


I'd rather keep Dragic for the long haul if forced to choose. I recognize EB great talent, but I'll keep Goran and translate Bled into the needed goods. Bledsoe gets the Suns more return.

Don't see a trade anytime soon, but the FO will be patient. Never was about this year anyway. No panic.


Choosing Dragic over Bledsoe will just translate to the Suns being a perennial 9th seed.

What would choosing Bledsoe over Dragic translate to?

Return to Phoenix Suns