2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

[Ghost of Kleine]

Mike Schmidtz is really one of the very best at scouting. Here's more info on our latest two way Ish Wainwright:

Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
What are the PHX Suns getting in Ish Wainright? A long, physical, versatile forward who can defend multiple positions, spot shoot, create out of the post, & bring the ball up if needed. Tough w/ an elite feel. 12.6 PTS, 9.4 REBS, 6.4 AST, 2.0 STL for Uganda in 5 Afrobasket games. https://t.co/gW4u8vHyKi

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[Ghost of Kleine]

One other thing......Anyone else see Robin Lopez on the premium beats add at the bottom of the page? Complete with " Sideshow Bob" hairstyle and caveman beard.

[lilfishi22]

Mike Schmidtz is really one of the very best at scouting. Here's more info on our latest two way Ish Wainwright:

Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
What are the PHX Suns getting in Ish Wainright? A long, physical, versatile forward who can defend multiple positions, spot shoot, create out of the post, & bring the ball up if needed. Tough w/ an elite feel. 12.6 PTS, 9.4 REBS, 6.4 AST, 2.0 STL for Uganda in 5 Afrobasket games. https://t.co/gW4u8vHyKi

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Kinda has a Torrey Craig type of game it seems.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Mike Schmidtz is really one of the very best at scouting. Here's more info on our latest two way Ish Wainwright:

Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
What are the PHX Suns getting in Ish Wainright? A long, physical, versatile forward who can defend multiple positions, spot shoot, create out of the post, & bring the ball up if needed. Tough w/ an elite feel. 12.6 PTS, 9.4 REBS, 6.4 AST, 2.0 STL for Uganda in 5 Afrobasket games. https://t.co/gW4u8vHyKi

Read on Twitter

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Kinda has a Torrey Craig type of game it seems.

Not quite as explosive ( vertical burst) as craig. But much stronger it seems. So many raptor fans describe him as another PJ Tucker. He's definitely going to add some much needed physicality. And solid perimeter defense. Solid pickup for our roster all things considered.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Cam Johnson, articulate as ever, on building chemistry with Cam Payne, Landry Shamet and JaVale McGee in that second unit: https://t.co/x5zMsrXKJu

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[bwoolf2]

Mike Schmidtz is really one of the very best at scouting. Here's more info on our latest two way Ish Wainwright:

Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
What are the PHX Suns getting in Ish Wainright? A long, physical, versatile forward who can defend multiple positions, spot shoot, create out of the post, & bring the ball up if needed. Tough w/ an elite feel. 12.6 PTS, 9.4 REBS, 6.4 AST, 2.0 STL for Uganda in 5 Afrobasket games. https://t.co/gW4u8vHyKi

Read on Twitter

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Jones must have saw pj tucker go at giannis and think to himself we need someone like that, lol.

[bwgood77]

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
Thaddeus Young was also a DNP-CD last night for San Antonio. Very interesting thought here.

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So we sign Tanner's client Wainwright so he will engineer a trade of Young to the Suns? I sure would love to see him on that second unit over Nader.

One thing I was thinking about while walking my dog, on their thoughts with Ayton. The one thing they could be thinking about, though I don't think it's a necessity right now despite his talent is a trade of Ayton for our PG of the future. Who came to mind, that I believe is a DPE and was rumored to be on the block and on a team mentioned as one that might want to go after Ayton? OKC for Shai. Of course it would probably have to be a S&T because we don't have enough salary, and that would be another max.

To go along with that, they could be thinking of targeting Jarrett Allen, maybe offering up Cam or something like that given Cleveland is all bigs and guards....AND they just drafted Mobley. Allen is paid quite a bit though...$20 million a year, so to have him AND Shai would be more money invested, unless they think Cam will cost nearly as much as Allen anyway.

So then for a future lineup you have Shai, Book, Bridges, Crowder (Thad?), Allen.

I don't necessarily think that will happen but we will be in desperate need of a PG and may not want to pay top dollar to a C. I'm sure most would hate to see Cam go, but Allen is solid...and Shai is obviously a stud.

[Revived]

I like this Wainright signing. He looks like he can be a good small ball 5 for the Suns and that will be needed against many teams.

Like I said before, McGee will make a very good impact for the Suns but he’s not playable every night depending on matchups. We mainly need him against teams like the Bucks who have Portis as the backup big.

Denver used Jeff Green as the backup C. Warriors tonight used Otto Porter as the backup C.

These are matchups that McGee can’t play in because they will cook him on the offensive end drawing second defender and then kick out for better looks. And McGee isn’t talented enough offensively to make them pay for it on the other end.

I think Cam Johnson could end up playing some backup 5 minutes for the Suns this season as well.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
Thaddeus Young was also a DNP-CD last night for San Antonio. Very interesting thought here.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

So we sign Tanner's client Wainwright so he will engineer a trade of Young to the Suns? I sure would love to see him on that second unit over Nader.

One thing I was thinking about while walking my dog, on their thoughts with Ayton. The one thing they could be thinking about, though I don't think it's a necessity right now despite his talent is a trade of Ayton for our PG of the future. Who came to mind, that I believe is a DPE and was rumored to be on the block and on a team mentioned as one that might want to go after Ayton? OKC for Shai. Of course it would probably have to be a S&T because we don't have enough salary, and that would be another max.

To go along with that, they could be thinking of targeting Jarrett Allen, maybe offering up Cam or something like that given Cleveland is all bigs and guards....AND they just drafted Mobley. Allen is paid quite a bit though...$20 million a year, so to have him AND Shai would be more money invested, unless they think Cam will cost nearly as much as Allen anyway.

So then for a future lineup you have Shai, Book, Bridges, Crowder (Thad?), Allen.

I don't necessarily think that will happen but we will be in desperate need of a PG and may not want to pay top dollar to a C. I'm sure most would hate to see Cam go, but Allen is solid...and Shai is obviously a stud.

Interesting for sure. I though they could be looking at Fox in Sacramento. As a potential swap perhaps. Bagley has been such a disappointment. And with Haliburton becoming potentially elite as a floor general for them and also recently drafting Mitchell as well. I think for a potentially elite big like Ayton to take the sting off of the Bagley whiff, They'd strongly consider that swap. Fox's highlights did kind of remind me a little of KJ with his speed, athleticism, big shot making, and playmaking.

Now what if they swapped Ayton for Fox, And then a little cheaper than Allen, They looked at Valuncias since despite not having nearly the potential upside as Ayton, His statistical output and rebounding numbers are very comparable. Also for Jones interests, His 3 pt shooting is close to 36% last season I believe. Now I know that they actually coveted Paul pretty heavily last summer, So if we don't make another deep run this season or by next at the vety latest,

Could it be feasible that they may swap some package of Paul for Valuncias and filler? And unilaterally swap Ayton for Fox? I just think that Saver doesn't really grasp the concept of Aytons' true upside, and also doesn't value the center position in general nearly as much as he covets discounts and bargains. And again for very similar production, Valuncias is locked into his deal for a fraction of what Ayton would command next summer.

Shai could be a definite possibility! But I also think knowing Saver and his habitual tendencies towards fiscal prioritization, He'd be really tempted to look at Valuncias. Also, a fair number of OKC fans have expressed a supposed interest in an Simmons/ Shai/ Ayton foundation. They might be a little disillusioned by thinking that they could get both Ayton and Simkons for weak packages involving mainly picks and Favors / Henrich "freaking"Williams!

Seriously though, I really hope that we are able to secure Ayton. But IF a trade situation does come to pass, I wouldn't at all be upset with Shai........... Or Fox for that matter. And when everyone's ready around next summer, I've already done a bit of research on the most viable low cost ( for Savers' interests) replacements for Ayton. Even hidden 2nd round value ( of course knowing me huh?...lol)

[Desertfox]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Suns are playing a very dangerous game and covering it up with stupid comments. Im going to sound like a conspiracy theorist but...

JJ says that the max deal wouldn't fit for "basketball reasons"... Hes the frikin #1 pick, don't you WANT your #1 pick to be worthy of a super MAX? It almost sounds like they didnt want to pay the super MAX period, and now they dont have too... even if Ayton ends up as First Team All NBA.

JJ also said they wanted the players to just improve what their skills where and not work on new skills. Sounds like they dont want Ayton to pick up ball handling or 3-point shots. You know, what we all think he needs to be a MAX player. If he just improves last years skills he remains an extremely good role player, but not a MAX one.

The Monty comes out and says that while Ayton played well in the first quarter, that was not how they wanted him to play. You know the quarter where he went 4/5 showing off post-ups, ball handling, and three point shooting.

It sounds to me like they want him to be this super role player, one that is vital to the team's success, but one that is not worth the MAX. Weird for what was the #1 pick...

[lilfishi22]

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
Thaddeus Young was also a DNP-CD last night for San Antonio. Very interesting thought here.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

So we sign Tanner's client Wainwright so he will engineer a trade of Young to the Suns? I sure would love to see him on that second unit over Nader.

One thing I was thinking about while walking my dog, on their thoughts with Ayton. The one thing they could be thinking about, though I don't think it's a necessity right now despite his talent is a trade of Ayton for our PG of the future. Who came to mind, that I believe is a DPE and was rumored to be on the block and on a team mentioned as one that might want to go after Ayton? OKC for Shai. Of course it would probably have to be a S&T because we don't have enough salary, and that would be another max.

To go along with that, they could be thinking of targeting Jarrett Allen, maybe offering up Cam or something like that given Cleveland is all bigs and guards....AND they just drafted Mobley. Allen is paid quite a bit though...$20 million a year, so to have him AND Shai would be more money invested, unless they think Cam will cost nearly as much as Allen anyway.

So then for a future lineup you have Shai, Book, Bridges, Crowder (Thad?), Allen.

I don't necessarily think that will happen but we will be in desperate need of a PG and may not want to pay top dollar to a C. I'm sure most would hate to see Cam go, but Allen is solid...and Shai is obviously a stud.

I just don't think any team would give up a building block for Ayton unless they already had one and Ayton would be an addition. So Detroit with Cade would make more sense. On the topic of OKC, it's more likely they would want to pair Ayton with their first building block rather than replace Shai unless....I dunno they hit on an even higher caliber PG than Shai in the future drafts. The other PG on the designated rookie max guy is De'Aaron Fox and who knows what the Kings are doing but I kinda feel like he's their guy so I don't necessarily see him get moved either, especially if Bagley is still there but I'd guess that situation is probably going to end up in a trade sooner rather than later. [Forgot about Haliburton, maybe Fox is tradeable...]

IF I was playing devil's advocate and trying to think of trades that Jones may be considering to rationalise not giving Ayton the designated max, I kind of think the most logical guy to be traded is CP3. Now, there aren't as many designated vets as I thought but if we crash out in the 2nd round for example, who could be that CP3 replacement as the PG of now and for the next 3-4 years? In terms of designated max PG's, I'm going to guess Jones is thinking of one guy - Damian Lillard. That's likely going to require us to give up likely CP3, Bridges and/or Cam and even then it might not be enough but given Dame has given everything to Portland, they might do him a favor. So they end up with CP3 who they can deal again or waive (for cap relief) or play him with CJ for a little bit while they figure things out. They'll also add Bridges and/or Cam to their wings.

Dame, Booker, Bridges/Cam/new wing, Crowder, Ayton.

Not saying if I'd do it or not. Just thinking out loud

[Slim Charless]

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
Thaddeus Young was also a DNP-CD last night for San Antonio. Very interesting thought here.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

So we sign Tanner's client Wainwright so he will engineer a trade of Young to the Suns? I sure would love to see him on that second unit over Nader.

One thing I was thinking about while walking my dog, on their thoughts with Ayton. The one thing they could be thinking about, though I don't think it's a necessity right now despite his talent is a trade of Ayton for our PG of the future. Who came to mind, that I believe is a DPE and was rumored to be on the block and on a team mentioned as one that might want to go after Ayton? OKC for Shai. Of course it would probably have to be a S&T because we don't have enough salary, and that would be another max.

To go along with that, they could be thinking of targeting Jarrett Allen, maybe offering up Cam or something like that given Cleveland is all bigs and guards....AND they just drafted Mobley. Allen is paid quite a bit though...$20 million a year, so to have him AND Shai would be more money invested, unless they think Cam will cost nearly as much as Allen anyway.

So then for a future lineup you have Shai, Book, Bridges, Crowder (Thad?), Allen.

I don't necessarily think that will happen but we will be in desperate need of a PG and may not want to pay top dollar to a C. I'm sure most would hate to see Cam go, but Allen is solid...and Shai is obviously a stud.

I just don't think any team would give up a building block for Ayton unless they already had one and Ayton would be an addition. So Detroit with Cade would make more sense. On the topic of OKC, it's more likely they would want to pair Ayton with their first building block rather than replace Shai unless....I dunno they hit on an even higher caliber PG than Shai in the future drafts. The other PG on the designated rookie max guy is De'Aaron Fox and who knows what the Kings are doing but I kinda feel like he's their guy so I don't necessarily see him get moved either, especially if Bagley is still there but I'd guess that situation is probably going to end up in a trade sooner rather than later. [Forgot about Haliburton, maybe Fox is tradeable...]

IF I was playing devil's advocate and trying to think of trades that Jones may be considering to rationalise not giving Ayton the designated max, I kind of think the most logical guy to be traded is CP3. Now, there aren't as many designated vets as I thought but if we crash out in the 2nd round for example, who could be that CP3 replacement as the PG of now and for the next 3-4 years? In terms of designated max PG's, I'm going to guess Jones is thinking of one guy - Damian Lillard. That's likely going to require us to give up likely CP3, Bridges and/or Cam and even then it might not be enough but given Dame has given everything to Portland, they might do him a favor. So they end up with CP3 who they can deal again or waive (for cap relief) or play him with CJ for a little bit while they figure things out. They'll also add Bridges and/or Cam to their wings.

Dame, Booker, Bridges/Cam/new wing, Crowder, Ayton.

Not saying if I'd do it or not. Just thinking out loud

I don't know if I can picture them trading DA for another PG. Like, that means that guy is coming off the bench (which would be wild to do to SGA or Fox) or as was mentioned-trading CP3. That's way too much changing. What do those moves say to Booker? I'd ask out if I was him and we come w/i 2 games of a chip, then they trade the 2 key pieces from the team.

I still say a trade for another big man is the option that makes the most sense if they wanna keep somewhat of the same vibe around the team. Maybe Allen I guess, but does the Cavs want to do that? You'd figure they'd want to move Mobley to the 5. I would say maybe ATL for Capela+ but they also look good, and while they have a ton of pieces that will most likely be moved somewhere, DA probably isn't the way they go. We've talked KAT enough so we know about that one....idk.

Maybe they go really cheap and do DET for Grant, Killian, picks and whoever their C is currently (Stewart??). Or Some kinda trade where we ship off him, Crowder and Saric for Siakam.

[Desertfox]

To New Orleans for Zion when Zion requests a trade, except the Pelicans have too many Cs, including Valancunias.

[Puff]

My gawd

Some of you are hook lined and sinkered with this OMG Ayton moment. If he is so weak minded to be effected by the realization he wasn’t viewed as a shoo in max, then we are in trouble. let him just play for his deal.

I’d say in about 15 games y’all will likely remember.

5 is the O/U on how many of them he’ll look somewhat close to a max player. He’s trying to cash in like Frank. 11 good minutes and he got his deal… DA has 11 good games and wants the max.

Gotta Bring it every night

Frank, I think people know he is not worth it based on current play. The point of the whole thing is will you lose him for nothing. If it's a sure thing other teams will offer the max we risk losing him for nothing or paying him. You can always trade later if he doesn't play well.

You could trade him this year but it would seem a bit stupid to be one of those teams that broke up a finals team and try to live or die by the 3.

Paying him is for the future, the upside, the work ethic he's shown with his massive defensive improvement, etc. This year he is making $12 million. Right now he is a great value.

I'd rather not pay him the max, but I imagine we will have to regardless of what we think or how much some people whine about his #s after every game they are not great.

You and the others who keep climbing up Ayton's shorts are smarter than this. He is not a max player and will not be one until he decides to play every night and every minute he is on the court. I for one hope he gets it and starts doing just that. I have nothing against him and hope he plays for us for a long time. He is going to make $12, 000,000 /82 or about $146,000 per night before playoff games this year. I believe that is above the poverty level. The Suns refused to pay him the $200,000,000, yes with incentives it would have been more than that which means that he would have been played about 410 games if he stayed off the drugs. That would have been $487,000 everytime he played.

He is being paid very well for what he produces. I have no idea why everyone feels sorry for him and says his feeling are hurt. Do you have the same compassion for the guy making minimum wage while trying to support a family while being threatened with his job every day?

If he decides to leave we will get something in return. If he doesn't the sun will come up just fine at least I hope so.

Yeah, I am tired of the great value bs as well. He has been paid very well every since he enrolled at U of A. I do no feel sorry for him at all. He needs to play ball and shut up.

I just do not understand how he is going to turn into a superstar just because we pay him $200,000,000. He needs to really want it.

I am done

No I am not. Where was that massive defensive improvement last night? Jokic owned him and then some. Yeah we are going to continue to whine about his performance, if you and others continue to whine about his pay check. Nothing is going to change on that front until next July. If he proves to not be a max player by next July, so be it. It appears that James Jones has his eye on someone else.

[Slim Charless]

My gawd

Some of you are hook lined and sinkered with this OMG Ayton moment. If he is so weak minded to be effected by the realization he wasn’t viewed as a shoo in max, then we are in trouble. let him just play for his deal.

I’d say in about 15 games y’all will likely remember.

5 is the O/U on how many of them he’ll look somewhat close to a max player. He’s trying to cash in like Frank. 11 good minutes and he got his deal… DA has 11 good games and wants the max.

Gotta Bring it every night

Frank, I think people know he is not worth it based on current play. The point of the whole thing is will you lose him for nothing. If it's a sure thing other teams will offer the max we risk losing him for nothing or paying him. You can always trade later if he doesn't play well.

You could trade him this year but it would seem a bit stupid to be one of those teams that broke up a finals team and try to live or die by the 3.

Paying him is for the future, the upside, the work ethic he's shown with his massive defensive improvement, etc. This year he is making $12 million. Right now he is a great value.

I'd rather not pay him the max, but I imagine we will have to regardless of what we think or how much some people whine about his #s after every game they are not great.

You and the others who keep climbing up Ayton's shorts are smarter than this. He is not a max player and will not be one until he decides to play every night and every minute he is on the court. I for one hope he gets it and starts doing just that. I have nothing against him and hope he plays for us for a long time. He is going to make $12, 000,000 /82 or about $146,000 per night before playoff games this year. I believe that is above the poverty level. The Suns refused to pay him the $200,000,000, yes with incentives it would have been more than that which means that he would have been played about 410 games if he stayed off the drugs. That would have been $487,000 everytime he played.

He is being paid very well for what he produces. I have no idea why everyone feels sorry for him and says his feeling are hurt. Do you have the same compassion for the guy making minimum wage while trying to support a family while being threatened with his job every day?

If he decides to leave we will get something in return. If he doesn't the sun will come up just fine at least I hope so.

Yeah, I am tired of the great value bs as well. He has been paid very well every since he enrolled at U of A. I do no feel sorry for him at all. He needs to play ball and shut up.

I just do not understand how he is going to turn into a superstar just because we pay him $200,000,000. He needs to really want it.

I am done

No I am not. Where was that massive defensive improvement last night? Jokic owned him and then some. Yeah we are going to continue to whine about his performance, if you and others continue to whine about his pay check. Nothing is going to change on that front until next July. If he proves to not be a max player by next July, so be it. It appears that James Jones has his eye on someone else.

I consider myself on the "opposite" of you on this but that was a good post.

I think the main thing for a lot of the Team Ayton people isn't that he necessarily deserves it right now, but it's better for the team and for what it means to have no distractions this season of all seasons. There is the basic fact that not signing now, means that we will have to pay WAY more down the line. Also, there's the fear that Sarver is still $arver and hasn't learned a thing, and that this non payment of DA is just a 1st step of stupid, cheap things that will lead us back into the darkness- right after we finally climb out there. Sarver has done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt. For me, at least it's more about my lack of trust for him-and the fact that he's really pulling the strings behind JJ and Monty.

[bwgood77]

I like this Wainright signing. He looks like he can be a good small ball 5 for the Suns and that will be needed against many teams.

Like I said before, McGee will make a very good impact for the Suns but he’s not playable every night depending on matchups. We mainly need him against teams like the Bucks who have Portis as the backup big.

Denver used Jeff Green as the backup C. Warriors tonight used Otto Porter as the backup C.

These are matchups that McGee can’t play in because they will cook him on the offensive end drawing second defender and then kick out for better looks. And McGee isn’t talented enough offensively to make them pay for it on the other end.

I think Cam Johnson could end up playing some backup 5 minutes for the Suns this season as well.

Yeah, not having a reliable backup big didn't really hurt us until we got to the playoffs and unfortunately ran into two of the biggest teams in the LAL and MIL (which we were ok against until they went with 3 bigs in Portis, Giannis and Brook). Saric would be decent against those guys. Thad would actually be perfect though as a small ball backup. Crowder maybe too....just sub him out first and back in when Ayton goes out.

[bwgood77]

Evan Sidery (@esidery) Tweeted:
Thaddeus Young was also a DNP-CD last night for San Antonio. Very interesting thought here.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

So we sign Tanner's client Wainwright so he will engineer a trade of Young to the Suns? I sure would love to see him on that second unit over Nader.

One thing I was thinking about while walking my dog, on their thoughts with Ayton. The one thing they could be thinking about, though I don't think it's a necessity right now despite his talent is a trade of Ayton for our PG of the future. Who came to mind, that I believe is a DPE and was rumored to be on the block and on a team mentioned as one that might want to go after Ayton? OKC for Shai. Of course it would probably have to be a S&T because we don't have enough salary, and that would be another max.

To go along with that, they could be thinking of targeting Jarrett Allen, maybe offering up Cam or something like that given Cleveland is all bigs and guards....AND they just drafted Mobley. Allen is paid quite a bit though...$20 million a year, so to have him AND Shai would be more money invested, unless they think Cam will cost nearly as much as Allen anyway.

So then for a future lineup you have Shai, Book, Bridges, Crowder (Thad?), Allen.

I don't necessarily think that will happen but we will be in desperate need of a PG and may not want to pay top dollar to a C. I'm sure most would hate to see Cam go, but Allen is solid...and Shai is obviously a stud.

Interesting for sure. I though they could be looking at Fox in Sacramento. As a potential swap perhaps. Bagley has been such a disappointment. And with Haliburton becoming potentially elite as a floor general for them and also recently drafting Mitchell as well. I think for a potentially elite big like Ayton to take the sting off of the Bagley whiff, They'd strongly consider that swap. Fox's highlights did kind of remind me a little of KJ with his speed, athleticism, big shot making, and playmaking.

Now what if they swapped Ayton for Fox, And then a little cheaper than Allen, They looked at Valuncias since despite not having nearly the potential upside as Ayton, His statistical output and rebounding numbers are very comparable. Also for Jones interests, His 3 pt shooting is close to 36% last season I believe. Now I know that they actually coveted Paul pretty heavily last summer, So if we don't make another deep run this season or by next at the vety latest,

Could it be feasible that they may swap some package of Paul for Valuncias and filler? And unilaterally swap Ayton for Fox? I just think that Saver doesn't really grasp the concept of Aytons' true upside, and also doesn't value the center position in general nearly as much as he covets discounts and bargains. And again for very similar production, Valuncias is locked into his deal for a fraction of what Ayton would command next summer.

Shai could be a definite possibility! But I also think knowing Saver and his habitual tendencies towards fiscal prioritization, He'd be really tempted to look at Valuncias. Also, a fair number of OKC fans have expressed a supposed interest in an Simmons/ Shai/ Ayton foundation. They might be a little disillusioned by thinking that they could get both Ayton and Simkons for weak packages involving mainly picks and Favors / Henrich "freaking"Williams!

Seriously though, I really hope that we are able to secure Ayton. But IF a trade situation does come to pass, I wouldn't at all be upset with Shai........... Or Fox for that matter. And when everyone's ready around next summer, I've already done a bit of research on the most viable low cost ( for Savers' interests) replacements for Ayton. Even hidden 2nd round value ( of course knowing me huh?...lol)

I think Fox is the face of the Kings...like how we thought of Book, they think of Fox. And him and Haliburton and Buddy have a nice 3 man rotation. If anything, Buddy is on the block.

In theory Val's #s look good, but why didn't Memphis want to keep him? Why trade him for Adams? I think the Pelicans really wanted him. And Raptors fans hated his slow footed defense, I remember reading on their board how he couldn't even step out a few feet to contest and get back to the rim in time. Though you could say the same about a lot of Cs.

I think some who may not be as predisposed to not like whatever Ayton does, will soon remember how good he is at moving around on defense once he gets back into the groove of things. I mean, he may have been more in the groove to start than anyone but Paul, but he has to be damn near perfect for people to notice sometimes.

I think if we had to trade Ayton for a PG of the future, and get a big elsewhere, Allen is about the best name. He's solid and young. And they have Mobley. OKC drafted Giddey, but they may view Shai more as a SG. No real need for them not to keep him though given all their rookie contracts.

[bwgood77]

The more I think about it, the more I think the Suns are playing a very dangerous game and covering it up with stupid comments. Im going to sound like a conspiracy theorist but...

JJ says that the max deal wouldn't fit for "basketball reasons"... Hes the frikin #1 pick, don't you WANT your #1 pick to be worthy of a super MAX? It almost sounds like they didnt want to pay the super MAX period, and now they dont have too... even if Ayton ends up as First Team All NBA.

JJ also said they wanted the players to just improve what their skills where and not work on new skills. Sounds like they dont want Ayton to pick up ball handling or 3-point shots. You know, what we all think he needs to be a MAX player. If he just improves last years skills he remains an extremely good role player, but not a MAX one.

Then Monty comes out and says that while Ayton played well in the first quarter, that was not how they wanted him to play. You know the quarter where he went 4/5 showing off post-ups, ball handling, and three point shooting.

It sounds to me like they want him to be this super role player, one that is vital to the team's success, but one that is not worth the MAX. Weird for what was the #1 pick...

Did he really say this? What a strange thing to say. He scored like our 8 of our first 16 points or something. Did he like the 3 pt shooting more. I was wondering earlier if his lack of touches are for monetary reasons, as stupid as that sounds. But of course that would be silly. Maybe they only want him to be a role player. I guess I need to find a clip of what Monty said to try and get context.

Edit: I guess here is a thread of what you might be referring to:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Ghost of Kleine]

To New Orleans for Zion when Zion requests a trade, except the Pelicans have too many Cs, including Valancunias.

except the Pelicans have too many Cs, including Valancunias.

Now, Just to be clear, i'm in no way promoting or endorsing trading Ayton. However, I do absolutely believe that as it gets closer to his restricted free agency, Rather than be forced to match a full max contract possibly front loaded, poison pilled, trade kickers, player options, etc. put in the match as a deterrent to use matching, Saver will panic about the potential luxury tax implications and shop Ayton hard (quietly). Now what's interesting when comparing Aytons' and Valuncias' stats, They're actually almost identical!
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=valanjo01&player_id1=aytonde01&sum=0&request=1
Now Ayton has a better FG% and EFG%, But Valuncias has a better TS%, Is a better 3PT shooter, Free throw shooter, and a slightly better rebounder and shotblocker as well. Also, Valuncias has better overall advanced stats. So basically they're pretty much almost identical statistically. Only the advanced stats indicate Valuncias offering better impact. This shouldn't be too surprising as Valuncias is 29 currently with more years and experience under his belt. And Ayton whose only 23 has a much higher upside/potential.

But here's where everything gets truly interesting! And undoubtedly the premise is likely giving Savers' fiscal short hairs (sorry everyone) a strong tingly feeling!!! And that's the contract / salary disparity between Ayton and Valuncias. Again considering their basically identical in terms of statistical production:

Valuncias- 3yrs/ $44 million. So basically $14 million/ $14.7/ $15.4 million.

Vs.

Ayton- $16.4 million (QO). and max contract anywhere between $27-$34 million per yr.

So basically, By next summer, Ayton will be making double or more than what Valuncias is under contract for over the next three yrs. Now this becomes important given Savers' cheap nature and prioritization of bargains, cost control and profit margin due to his fiscal impotency in comparison to the vast majority of other NBA owners. So I fully expect Saver to try and offload Ayton for a bargain alternative rather than commit long term to a max salary, and luxury tax concerns. Now here's where the trade comes into play:

Inverse Trade-
https://fanspo.com/nba/s/suns/trades/WjemeVJZ382GjF/paul-comes-home
Chris Paul+filler for Jonas Valuncias/ **Trey Murphy 3rd/ Thomas Santoransky/ Flakers 2022 first.
** We get back Trey Murphy as Johnsons' replacement if we need to trade him for another premium piece.

https://fanspo.com/nba/s/suns/trades/vtXh6dcRo7ecGL/ayton-fox-swap
Ayton for Fox.
( Not throwing in Smith or Saric actually).
Jujust added to make the money work.

So post trade on both, We end up with Valuncias and Fox.
(Post Paul/ Ayton)

- Fox/ Payne/Payton.
-Booker/Santoransky/ Shamet. (Sato drops off the books, Or we flip him for an asset). Shamet takes over backup SG.
-Bridges/Nader/Murphy 3rd. (** Murphy 3rd can backup Johnson once Crowder leaves, Or he can replace Johnson IF traded).
-Crowder/Johnson/Smith.
-Valuncias/Mcgee/Kaminsky.
( Saric DPE)...................... We might just still flip Saric/Smith/ Flakers first to San Antonio for Young to get even more cap flexibility?? ( Or replace Crowder with Wood-FA in 2023)? Johnson backs him up in Sarics' role (could he get to 6'10 by next summer)??
(two way)-
Wainwright.
Hutchinson.

[bwgood77]

My gawd

Some of you are hook lined and sinkered with this OMG Ayton moment. If he is so weak minded to be effected by the realization he wasn’t viewed as a shoo in max, then we are in trouble. let him just play for his deal.

I’d say in about 15 games y’all will likely remember.

5 is the O/U on how many of them he’ll look somewhat close to a max player. He’s trying to cash in like Frank. 11 good minutes and he got his deal… DA has 11 good games and wants the max.

Gotta Bring it every night

Frank, I think people know he is not worth it based on current play. The point of the whole thing is will you lose him for nothing. If it's a sure thing other teams will offer the max we risk losing him for nothing or paying him. You can always trade later if he doesn't play well.

You could trade him this year but it would seem a bit stupid to be one of those teams that broke up a finals team and try to live or die by the 3.

Paying him is for the future, the upside, the work ethic he's shown with his massive defensive improvement, etc. This year he is making $12 million. Right now he is a great value.

I'd rather not pay him the max, but I imagine we will have to regardless of what we think or how much some people whine about his #s after every game they are not great.

You and the others who keep climbing up Ayton's shorts are smarter than this. He is not a max player and will not be one until he decides to play every night and every minute he is on the court. I for one hope he gets it and starts doing just that. I have nothing against him and hope he plays for us for a long time. He is going to make $12, 000,000 /82 or about $146,000 per night before playoff games this year. I believe that is above the poverty level. The Suns refused to pay him the $200,000,000, yes with incentives it would have been more than that which means that he would have been played about 410 games if he stayed off the drugs. That would have been $487,000 everytime he played.

He is being paid very well for what he produces. I have no idea why everyone feels sorry for him and says his feeling are hurt. Do you have the same compassion for the guy making minimum wage while trying to support a family while being threatened with his job every day?

If he decides to leave we will get something in return. If he doesn't the sun will come up just fine at least I hope so.

Yeah, I am tired of the great value bs as well. He has been paid very well every since he enrolled at U of A. I do no feel sorry for him at all. He needs to play ball and shut up.

I just do not understand how he is going to turn into a superstar just because we pay him $200,000,000. He needs to really want it.

I am done

No I am not. Where was that massive defensive improvement last night? Jokic owned him and then some. Yeah we are going to continue to whine about his performance, if you and others continue to whine about his pay check. Nothing is going to change on that front until next July. If he proves to not be a max player by next July, so be it. It appears that James Jones has his eye on someone else.

I already mentioned he doesn't make that much this year and isn't worth the max. But I don't think anyone is worth the $ paid these days. They get paid what the market is or they lose them. It's fine to wait though. Ultimately I don't care and I am almost always on the side of waiting until they are a RFA (but usually for cap purposes). My main thing is their lack of any negotiation though I understand that people say it wasn't worth trying given the approach Ayton's agents wanted to start with. But I don't like what they are communicating to the media in their reasoning because it keeps changing and doesn't make sense.

When you mention producing, this guy scored over 18 ppg as a 2nd year player, but then last year and in game 1 his shots dropped way down to 10 shots per game

But even though his shots dropped to 10 shots per game last year he scored 14.4 ppg, or 1.44 pps, which is very good. In our first game he scored 15 and people say he needs to do better, but it was on 10 shots, so 1.5 pps, which is even better. And that was even with 2 3 pt misses. Even with his make, his 3s were 3 pts on 3 shots, which is 1 PPS. Remove those and he got 12 points on 7 shots, almost 2 points per shot.

Others on our team shoot 15 or 16 shots...and score the same or less.

About Jokic, and your comment about "where was his defense last night?" no one ever limits his points much. Even in the playoffs against us he got points, but you make him less efficient. In our first game last night (or two nights ago) he got 27 on 22 shots, like 1.2 PPS, which is pretty bad for a big, so Ayton made it tougher for him. That's not very good efficiency for a big..particularly an MVP big.

People don't look into things and just quickly see points scored which is fine but what killed us is their overall efficiency and the other guys...Gordon 5/6 for 12 pts on 6 shots or 2 pts per shot, Porter for 15 on 10 shots like Ayton, so 1.5 pps, and even Barton for 20 on 14 shots is pretty good, over 1.3 pps for a guard.