2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions

spanishninja · Post #81 » by **spanishninja** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:39 am

Frank Lee wrote:Interesting fact

1 million seconds =. 11 1/2 days

1 billion seconds = 31 years

No matter how this season ends, the biggest improvement is the change of ownership

may want to check the math on that lol

Post #82 » by **lilfishi22** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:50 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:

Read on Twitter

Not expected but not unexpected.

Just hope that wasn't one of "those" games where he puts up a near all star performance and then is out for months

Frank Lee · Post #83 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:59 am

spanishninja wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Interesting fact

1 million seconds =. 11 1/2 days

1 billion seconds = 31 years

No matter how this season ends, the biggest improvement is the change of ownership

may want to check the math on that lol

Ummmm …. May be you should? LOL

Ghost of Kleine · Post #84 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:01 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:

Read on Twitter

Not expected but not unexpected.

Just hope that wasn't one of "those" games where he puts up a near all star performance and then is out for months

This is a smart precautionary move here. Better than risking overdoing it and I'd hate to see either He or Booker reaggravate the same injury or possibly make it worse by trying to do too much too quickly. The suns need to be very judicious with load management on both for at least another 12-15 games or so. Our team will figure things out still. But they MUST take a precautionary and/or protective perspective to this as both are key to our core's long term future and sustainability. :nod:

Ghost of Kleine · Post #85 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:16 am

Read on Twitter

Bogyo · Post #86 » by **Bogyo** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:00 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:

Read on Twitter

Not expected but not unexpected.

Just hope that wasn't one of "those" games where he puts up a near all star performance and then is out for months

This is a smart precautionary move here. Better than risking overdoing it and I'd hate to see either He or Booker reaggravate the same injury or possibly make it worse by trying to do too much too quickly. The suns need to be very judicious with load management on both for at least another 12-15 games or so. Our team will figure things out still. But they MUST take a precautionary and/or protective perspective to this as both are key to our core's long term future and sustainability.

Yep, and this is why is still prefer the "soft-tank" route, even though MattyIsh will pay for a winner. Sorry to say, we are not that this year, and we will not be that next year with CP. So only do trades with eyes on next year and beyond, while keeping our guys healthy for the long run as well. Keep our pick this year, keep the salary structure - figure it out in the offseason.

I want no part of our "gm" panic-trading trying to prove to our now owner that he is worthy, and selling snake-oil dreams of this team being contender with CP. We are not (unless KD comes here for the infamous Saric, Crowder, Shamet, Craig, CamJ package. Works in the trade machine, just sayin'

).

BobbieL · Post #87 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:31 pm

Bogyo wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Not expected but not unexpected.

Just hope that wasn't one of "those" games where he puts up a near all star performance and then is out for months

This is a smart precautionary move here. Better than risking overdoing it and I'd hate to see either He or Booker reaggravate the same injury or possibly make it worse by trying to do too much too quickly. The suns need to be very judicious with load management on both for at least another 12-15 games or so. Our team will figure things out still. But they MUST take a precautionary and/or protective perspective to this as both are key to our core's long term future and sustainability.

Yep, and this is why is still prefer the "soft-tank" route, even though MattyIsh will pay for a winner. Sorry to say, we are not that this year, and we will not be that next year with CP. So only do trades with eyes on next year and beyond, while keeping our guys healthy for the long run as well. Keep our pick this year, keep the salary structure - figure it out in the offseason.

I want no part of our "gm" panic-trading trying to prove to our now owner that he is worthy, and selling snake-oil dreams of this team being contender with CP. We are not (unless KD comes here for the infamous Saric, Crowder, Shamet, Craig, CamJ package. Works in the trade machine, just sayin' ).

The thing with Chris Paul is this is probably the best version of his game for the rest of his career - if he comes back this year

So they can
1) ride out the year and stretch him this summer - that probably seems most likely

2) ride out the year and pick up the option - that seems least likely

3) trade him now as the acquiring him can dump a contract worth between 25m and 30m and only pay 15.8. I bring up Rozier as he has the three years left. Hornets would save $55m and get a bunch of cap space next summer. The Suns are over the cap so Paul doesn't help. Maybe its a three team trade -- does Minnesota want a Rozier so the Suns could get D'Lo

Personally, I think its option 3. Who knows when Paul will be back and in what condition

Saberestar · Post #88 » by **Saberestar** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:14 pm

Saben Lee is expected to get another 10-day contract from the Suns. He has played well, not afraid to take big shots or of the moments. Nothing new on the Crowder trade front.

Read on Twitter

BobbieL · Post #89 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:36 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Saben Lee is expected to get another 10-day contract from the Suns. He has played well, not afraid to take big shots or of the moments. Nothing new on the Crowder trade front.

Read on Twitter

DAvid IV Point Play tweeted that Lee's contract is just over $100k
but because of the luxury tax - costing the Suns 450k or something crazy

amazing a team like the Suns are first time lux tax payers and its that steep - meaning 4.5X
clippers and warriors should be up to like 10x by now

Bogyo · Post #90 » by **Bogyo** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:54 pm

BobbieL wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:This is a smart precautionary move here. Better than risking overdoing it and I'd hate to see either He or Booker reaggravate the same injury or possibly make it worse by trying to do too much too quickly. The suns need to be very judicious with load management on both for at least another 12-15 games or so. Our team will figure things out still. But they MUST take a precautionary and/or protective perspective to this as both are key to our core's long term future and sustainability.

Yep, and this is why is still prefer the "soft-tank" route, even though MattyIsh will pay for a winner. Sorry to say, we are not that this year, and we will not be that next year with CP. So only do trades with eyes on next year and beyond, while keeping our guys healthy for the long run as well. Keep our pick this year, keep the salary structure - figure it out in the offseason.

I want no part of our "gm" panic-trading trying to prove to our now owner that he is worthy, and selling snake-oil dreams of this team being contender with CP. We are not (unless KD comes here for the infamous Saric, Crowder, Shamet, Craig, CamJ package. Works in the trade machine, just sayin' ).

The thing with Chris Paul is this is probably the best version of his game for the rest of his career - if he comes back this year

So they can
1) ride out the year and stretch him this summer - that probably seems most likely

2) ride out the year and pick up the option - that seems least likely

3) trade him now as the acquiring him can dump a contract worth between 25m and 30m and only pay 15.8. I bring up Rozier as he has the three years left. Hornets would save $55m and get a bunch of cap space next summer. The Suns are over the cap so Paul doesn't help. Maybe its a three team trade -- does Minnesota want a Rozier so the Suns could get D'Lo

Personally, I think its option 3. Who knows when Paul will be back and in what condition

If we could get CP off the team I'd most likely do it. I respect the man, and like him for our finals run, but at this point he is more of a hindrance. If we got D'Lo I'd be really happy with that. While he is not an all-star he is young, his next contract shouldn't be terrible, and he'll most likely come with the best intentions to fit in with Book, and make a positive impact, like he did with the Nets and the Warriors. Rozier is a bit overpaid, but if he doesn't pan out he is not impossible to trade I think. Both could be a part of a contender - not as primary or secondary options, but they'd bring more to the table next year than CP for sure.
So this likely wouldn't be the final form of our new team trying to conted, but as I stated above we could figure out the rest in the offseason, especially with MattyIsh's deeeeeep pockets

BobbieL · Post #91 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:35 pm

Bogyo wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Bogyo wrote:

Yep, and this is why is still prefer the "soft-tank" route, even though MattyIsh will pay for a winner. Sorry to say, we are not that this year, and we will not be that next year with CP. So only do trades with eyes on next year and beyond, while keeping our guys healthy for the long run as well. Keep our pick this year, keep the salary structure - figure it out in the offseason.

I want no part of our "gm" panic-trading trying to prove to our now owner that he is worthy, and selling snake-oil dreams of this team being contender with CP. We are not (unless KD comes here for the infamous Saric, Crowder, Shamet, Craig, CamJ package. Works in the trade machine, just sayin' ).

The thing with Chris Paul is this is probably the best version of his game for the rest of his career - if he comes back this year

So they can
1) ride out the year and stretch him this summer - that probably seems most likely

2) ride out the year and pick up the option - that seems least likely

3) trade him now as the acquiring him can dump a contract worth between 25m and 30m and only pay 15.8. I bring up Rozier as he has the three years left. Hornets would save $55m and get a bunch of cap space next summer. The Suns are over the cap so Paul doesn't help. Maybe its a three team trade -- does Minnesota want a Rozier so the Suns could get D'Lo

Personally, I think its option 3. Who knows when Paul will be back and in what condition

If we could get CP off the team I'd most likely do it. I respect the man, and like him for our finals run, but at this point he is more of a hindrance. If we got D'Lo I'd be really happy with that. While he is not an all-star he is young, his next contract shouldn't be terrible, and he'll most likely come with the best intentions to fit in with Book, and make a positive impact, like he did with the Nets and the Warriors. Rozier is a bit overpaid, but if he doesn't pan out he is not impossible to trade I think. Both could be a part of a contender - not as primary or secondary options, but they'd bring more to the table next year than CP for sure.
So this likely wouldn't be the final form of our new team trying to conted, but as I stated above we could figure out the rest in the offseason, especially with MattyIsh's deeeeeep pockets

I was just spitballing the players of course -- since both Russell and Rozier have been mentioned as trade possibilities .

But the Paul contract is a tough one for the Suns -- buying and stretching him out doesn't get you cap space; he is not worth the $30m next year and who knows when he will play again this year - day to day. I agree, respect what he brought to the team but the Suns have to think about the future too. But if is say traded to the HOrnets - they will buy him out and he can be on the lakers back home in LA in 2 minutes.

Saberestar · Post #92 » by **Saberestar** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:00 pm

Tonight's game against the Pacers missing Haliburton and on a back-to-back was somewhat an easy game, but things haven't gone our way.

Cam Johnson out, CP3 out, Okogie presumably out, Ayton questionable with a non-Covid illness and you have to add Book, Payne, Shamet and Crowder already out.

Praying for Ayton to play in this one. If he doesn't play I don't know how we are gonna score enough points to stay in the game.

BobbieL · Post #93 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:12 pm

Saberestar wrote:Tonight's game against the Pacers missing Haliburton and on a back-to-back was somewhat an easy game, but things haven't gone our way.

Cam Johnson out, CP3 out, Okogie presumably out, Ayton questionable with a non-Covid illness and you have to add Book, Payne, Shamet and Crowder already out.

Praying for Ayton to play in this one. If he doesn't play I don't know how we are gonna score enough points to stay in the game.

No doubt. And I understand resting Cam J - tomorrow they have another game. But this team just cannot get healthy

Lee and Lee show tonight

Saberestar · Post #94 » by **Saberestar** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:07 pm

Via Marc Stein

In 2019, the Bucks sent four second-round picks to the New Orleans Pelicans for Nikola Mirotic.

Milwaukee is trying a similar tactic now, as they've offered four second-round picks to the Houston Rockets for Eric Gordon. The Bucks have eight second-round picks to offer in trades over the next seven years.

Ghost of Kleine · Post #95 » by **Ghost of Kleine** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:35 pm

BobbieL wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
The thing with Chris Paul is this is probably the best version of his game for the rest of his career - if he comes back this year

So they can
1) ride out the year and stretch him this summer - that probably seems most likely

2) ride out the year and pick up the option - that seems least likely

3) trade him now as the acquiring him can dump a contract worth between 25m and 30m and only pay 15.8. I bring up Rozier as he has the three years left. Hornets would save $55m and get a bunch of cap space next summer. The Suns are over the cap so Paul doesn't help. Maybe its a three team trade -- does Minnesota want a Rozier so the Suns could get D'Lo

Personally, I think its option 3. Who knows when Paul will be back and in what condition

If we could get CP off the team I'd most likely do it. I respect the man, and like him for our finals run, but at this point he is more of a hindrance. If we got D'Lo I'd be really happy with that. While he is not an all-star he is young, his next contract shouldn't be terrible, and he'll most likely come with the best intentions to fit in with Book, and make a positive impact, like he did with the Nets and the Warriors. Rozier is a bit overpaid, but if he doesn't pan out he is not impossible to trade I think. Both could be a part of a contender - not as primary or secondary options, but they'd bring more to the table next year than CP for sure.
So this likely wouldn't be the final form of our new team trying to conted, but as I stated above we could figure out the rest in the offseason, especially with MattyIsh's deeeeeep pockets

I was just spitballing the players of course -- since both Russell and Rozier have been mentioned as trade possibilities .

But the Paul contract is a tough one for the Suns -- buying and stretching him out doesn't get you cap space; he is not worth the $30m next year and who knows when he will play again this year - day to day. I agree, respect what he brought to the team but the Suns have to think about the future too. But if is say traded to the Hornets - they will buy him out and he can be on the lakers back home in LA in 2 minutes.

Agreed! This is where I'm at with Paul too! Whilst I'm extremely grateful for him being such a catalyst to our evolution and achievements, IF we're truly and objectively trying to seriously compete, and he can barely stay healthy and at this point can only offer occasional minimal impact or sub starter level production, then it becomes us sitting on 30 million in dead salary anchoring a SIGNIFICANT salaried position wherein production/ impact doesn't equal salaried investment. It's funny in that a lot of people are adamant about moving on from/trading Ayton under the same premise. But clearly ignore the same situation with Paul, AND the reality of the situation being that Ayton being as young as he is at least still has a solid chance of optimal outcome. Whilst Paul for all of his greatness is clearly at the tail end of his career and impact with no realistic avenue to resurrect his HOF level, game changing play. Now IF our plan is to have him retire with our franchise, maybe join our ring of honor and ultimately join our coaching staff, Now that would be awesome and acceptable, and worthy of keeping him at his salary as a super virtuous gesture!

But even then, He needs to be moved to the bench in that capacity and by default we need to move on from Payne as an inclusive asset/sweetener towards securing a replacement for our post Paul sustainability. We also in this situation, need to prioritize a young, high end talent (guard) to apprentice under BOTH Paul and whomever our replacement option may be to fill the backup position to be eventually vacated by Paul!

Now our three most realistic STOPGAP considerations for Paul are obviously: (comparison to Paul).

Van Vleet- (21,22 million currently, with a 22 million players option which HE WILL TAKE/ seeking upwards of 30+ million on his next contract).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=vanvlfr01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=vanvlfr01

Rozier- (under contract at (23,24,26 over the next three seasons).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=roziete01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=roziete01

Russell- (30 million expiring).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&p1yrfrom=2023&player_id1=russeda01&p2yrfrom=2023&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=russeda01

Upon full review of statistical comparison of each to (current) Paul, as well as contractual situation, I would rank them:
1- Russell.
Overall value (and very unlikely he'll get a big contract) AND would very likely accept less to play with Booker in Phoenix. Maybe offer to resign him at a larger amount but on a shorter "prove it deal" and/or a team option or incentives. But he's the best value for a guard with legitimate size, scoring AND playmaking. BONUS- It would please Booker as they're close friends too. EXTRA BONUS- Shouldn't cost a draft asset to get him, AND in a paul/crowder swap, we'd likely be getting value assets back in the deal BECAUSE of how desperate Minnesota is to compete and validate the Gobert trade as successful.The big sell being how Paul could drastically improve Gobert's and Towns performances as he's proven time and again to do!

2- Rozier.
Best contractual value currently, and under control the longest. Possibly best scorer, BUT not really a playmaker. Bonus is it might not take as much to get him (asset wise) maybe a future 1st. He's also a very potent scorer and scrappy defender, but doesn't have the requisite size to provide a significant backcourt mismatch alongside Booker.

3- Van Vleet.
Best leadership qualities of the three and a very solid defender and big shot maker too. But will have a player option after next season, And will undoubtedly take it and be seeking well over 30 million while being 30 yrs old himself. And he's got sub optimal size that will be exploited in mismatches and frequently in the postseason like was done with Paul. Honestly, he shouldn't cost more than a moderately protected future first (becomes two 2nds) to get! Especially in a swap scenario with Paul.

BobbieL · Post #96 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:48 pm

Saberestar wrote:Via Marc Stein
In 2019, the Bucks sent four second-round picks to the New Orleans Pelicans for Nikola Mirotic.

Milwaukee is trying a similar tactic now, as they've offered four second-round picks to the Houston Rockets for Eric Gordon. The Bucks have eight second-round picks to offer in trades over the next seven years.

Grayson Allen
Ibaka

Hard to get the numbers to match

BobbieL · Post #97 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:52 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
If we could get CP off the team I'd most likely do it. I respect the man, and like him for our finals run, but at this point he is more of a hindrance. If we got D'Lo I'd be really happy with that. While he is not an all-star he is young, his next contract shouldn't be terrible, and he'll most likely come with the best intentions to fit in with Book, and make a positive impact, like he did with the Nets and the Warriors. Rozier is a bit overpaid, but if he doesn't pan out he is not impossible to trade I think. Both could be a part of a contender - not as primary or secondary options, but they'd bring more to the table next year than CP for sure.
So this likely wouldn't be the final form of our new team trying to conted, but as I stated above we could figure out the rest in the offseason, especially with MattyIsh's deeeeeep pockets

I was just spitballing the players of course -- since both Russell and Rozier have been mentioned as trade possibilities .

But the Paul contract is a tough one for the Suns -- buying and stretching him out doesn't get you cap space; he is not worth the $30m next year and who knows when he will play again this year - day to day. I agree, respect what he brought to the team but the Suns have to think about the future too. But if is say traded to the Hornets - they will buy him out and he can be on the lakers back home in LA in 2 minutes.

Agreed! This is where I'm at with Paul too! Whilst I'm extremely grateful for him being such a catalyst to our evolution and achievements, IF we're truly and objectively trying to seriously compete, and he can barely stay healthy and at this point can only offer occasional minimal impact or sub starter level production, then it becomes us sitting on 30 million in dead salary anchoring a SIGNIFICANT salaried position wherein production/ impact doesn't equal salaried investment. It's funny in that a lot of people are adamant about moving on from/trading Ayton under the same premise. But clearly ignore the same situation with Paul, AND the reality of the situation being that Ayton being as young as he is at least still has a solid chance of optimal outcome. Whilst Paul for all of his greatness is clearly at the tail end of his career and impact with no realistic avenue to resurrect his HOF level, game changing play. Now IF our plan is to have him retire with our franchise, maybe join our ring of honor and ultimately join our coaching staff, Now that would be awesome and acceptable, and worthy of keeping him at his salary as a super virtuous gesture!

But even then, He needs to be moved to the bench in that capacity and by default we need to move on from Payne as an inclusive asset/sweetener towards securing a replacement for our post Paul sustainability. We also in this situation, need to prioritize a young, high end talent (guard) to apprentice under BOTH Paul and whomever our replacement option may be to fill the backup position to be eventually vacated by Paul!

Now our three most realistic STOPGAP considerations for Paul are obviously: (comparison to Paul).

Van Vleet- (21,22 million currently, with a 22 million players option which HE WILL TAKE/ seeking upwards of 30+ million on his next contract).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=vanvlfr01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=vanvlfr01

Rozier- (under contract at (23,24,26 over the next three seasons).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=roziete01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=roziete01

Russell- (30 million expiring).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&p1yrfrom=2023&player_id1=russeda01&p2yrfrom=2023&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=russeda01

Upon full review of statistical comparison of each to (current) Paul, as well as contractual situation, I would rank them:
1- Russell.
Overall value (and very unlikely he'll get a big contract) AND would very likely accept less to play with Booker in Phoenix. Maybe offer to resign him at a larger amount but on a shorter "prove it deal" and/or a team option or incentives. But he's the best value for a guard with legitimate size, scoring AND playmaking. BONUS- It would please Booker as they're close friends too. EXTRA BONUS- Shouldn't cost a draft asset to get him, AND in a paul/crowder swap, we'd likely be getting value assets back in the deal BECAUSE of how desperate Minnesota is to compete and validate the Gobert trade as successful.The big sell being how Paul could drastically improve Gobert's and Towns performances as he's proven time and again to do!

2- Rozier.
Best contractual value currently, and under control the longest. Possibly best scorer, BUT not really a playmaker. Bonus is it might not take as much to get him (asset wise) maybe a future 1st. He's also a very potent scorer and scrappy defender, but doesn't have the requisite size to provide a significant backcourt mismatch alongside Booker.

3- Van Vleet.
Best leadership qualities of the three and a very solid defender and big shot maker too. But will have a player option after next season, And will undoubtedly take it and be seeking well over 30 million while being 30 yrs old himself. And he's got sub optimal size that will be exploited in mismatches and frequently in the postseason like was done with Paul. Honestly, he shouldn't cost more than a moderately protected future first (becomes two 2nds) to get! Especially in a swap scenario with Paul.

I wonder if the Twolves are interested in Rozier long term to play next to Ant Edwards

Charlotte: CP3 and Crowder

Minnesota: Plumlee and Rozier

Suns: DLo and Oubre

you can switch Oubre and Plumlee
also can put Saric for Crowder

Djedefre · Post #98 » by **Djedefre** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:01 pm

I absolutely dig Papi's return

Bogyo · Post #99 » by **Bogyo** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:02 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
I was just spitballing the players of course -- since both Russell and Rozier have been mentioned as trade possibilities .

But the Paul contract is a tough one for the Suns -- buying and stretching him out doesn't get you cap space; he is not worth the $30m next year and who knows when he will play again this year - day to day. I agree, respect what he brought to the team but the Suns have to think about the future too. But if is say traded to the Hornets - they will buy him out and he can be on the lakers back home in LA in 2 minutes.

Agreed! This is where I'm at with Paul too! Whilst I'm extremely grateful for him being such a catalyst to our evolution and achievements, IF we're truly and objectively trying to seriously compete, and he can barely stay healthy and at this point can only offer occasional minimal impact or sub starter level production, then it becomes us sitting on 30 million in dead salary anchoring a SIGNIFICANT salaried position wherein production/ impact doesn't equal salaried investment. It's funny in that a lot of people are adamant about moving on from/trading Ayton under the same premise. But clearly ignore the same situation with Paul, AND the reality of the situation being that Ayton being as young as he is at least still has a solid chance of optimal outcome. Whilst Paul for all of his greatness is clearly at the tail end of his career and impact with no realistic avenue to resurrect his HOF level, game changing play. Now IF our plan is to have him retire with our franchise, maybe join our ring of honor and ultimately join our coaching staff, Now that would be awesome and acceptable, and worthy of keeping him at his salary as a super virtuous gesture!

But even then, He needs to be moved to the bench in that capacity and by default we need to move on from Payne as an inclusive asset/sweetener towards securing a replacement for our post Paul sustainability. We also in this situation, need to prioritize a young, high end talent (guard) to apprentice under BOTH Paul and whomever our replacement option may be to fill the backup position to be eventually vacated by Paul!

Now our three most realistic STOPGAP considerations for Paul are obviously: (comparison to Paul).

Van Vleet- (21,22 million currently, with a 22 million players option which HE WILL TAKE/ seeking upwards of 30+ million on his next contract).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=vanvlfr01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=vanvlfr01

Rozier- (under contract at (23,24,26 over the next three seasons).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=roziete01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=roziete01

Russell- (30 million expiring).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&p1yrfrom=2023&player_id1=russeda01&p2yrfrom=2023&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=russeda01

Upon full review of statistical comparison of each to (current) Paul, as well as contractual situation, I would rank them:
1- Russell.
Overall value (and very unlikely he'll get a big contract) AND would very likely accept less to play with Booker in Phoenix. Maybe offer to resign him at a larger amount but on a shorter "prove it deal" and/or a team option or incentives. But he's the best value for a guard with legitimate size, scoring AND playmaking. BONUS- It would please Booker as they're close friends too. EXTRA BONUS- Shouldn't cost a draft asset to get him, AND in a paul/crowder swap, we'd likely be getting value assets back in the deal BECAUSE of how desperate Minnesota is to compete and validate the Gobert trade as successful.The big sell being how Paul could drastically improve Gobert's and Towns performances as he's proven time and again to do!

2- Rozier.
Best contractual value currently, and under control the longest. Possibly best scorer, BUT not really a playmaker. Bonus is it might not take as much to get him (asset wise) maybe a future 1st. He's also a very potent scorer and scrappy defender, but doesn't have the requisite size to provide a significant backcourt mismatch alongside Booker.

3- Van Vleet.
Best leadership qualities of the three and a very solid defender and big shot maker too. But will have a player option after next season, And will undoubtedly take it and be seeking well over 30 million while being 30 yrs old himself. And he's got sub optimal size that will be exploited in mismatches and frequently in the postseason like was done with Paul. Honestly, he shouldn't cost more than a moderately protected future first (becomes two 2nds) to get! Especially in a swap scenario with Paul.

I'd stay away from FVV. He is a chunky midget already. Looking for the last big bag which will pay his 5'11 frame 30+ mill at 33? Which is not even that far away from now for him? How is that helping, along with his fugly shootingpercentages, and his inability to make offense work with Barnes/OG and Siakam?!?! Thats not a PG, thats a mini-me shooting guard. No wonder Masai is trying to get rid of him (and the other one like him), and not his wings. Also, why would you want our "gm" to get into a trade with Masai? That would have nastier outcome than our last game 7.

BobbieL · Post #100 » by **BobbieL** » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:20 pm

Bogyo wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Agreed! This is where I'm at with Paul too! Whilst I'm extremely grateful for him being such a catalyst to our evolution and achievements, IF we're truly and objectively trying to seriously compete, and he can barely stay healthy and at this point can only offer occasional minimal impact or sub starter level production, then it becomes us sitting on 30 million in dead salary anchoring a SIGNIFICANT salaried position wherein production/ impact doesn't equal salaried investment. It's funny in that a lot of people are adamant about moving on from/trading Ayton under the same premise. But clearly ignore the same situation with Paul, AND the reality of the situation being that Ayton being as young as he is at least still has a solid chance of optimal outcome. Whilst Paul for all of his greatness is clearly at the tail end of his career and impact with no realistic avenue to resurrect his HOF level, game changing play. Now IF our plan is to have him retire with our franchise, maybe join our ring of honor and ultimately join our coaching staff, Now that would be awesome and acceptable, and worthy of keeping him at his salary as a super virtuous gesture!

But even then, He needs to be moved to the bench in that capacity and by default we need to move on from Payne as an inclusive asset/sweetener towards securing a replacement for our post Paul sustainability. We also in this situation, need to prioritize a young, high end talent (guard) to apprentice under BOTH Paul and whomever our replacement option may be to fill the backup position to be eventually vacated by Paul!

Now our three most realistic STOPGAP considerations for Paul are obviously: (comparison to Paul).

Van Vleet- (21,22 million currently, with a 22 million players option which HE WILL TAKE/ seeking upwards of 30+ million on his next contract).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=vanvlfr01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=vanvlfr01

Rozier- (under contract at (23,24,26 over the next three seasons).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&player_id1=roziete01&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=roziete01

Russell- (30 million expiring).
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=paulch01&p1yrfrom=2023&player_id1=russeda01&p2yrfrom=2023&sum=0&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=russeda01

Upon full review of statistical comparison of each to (current) Paul, as well as contractual situation, I would rank them:
1- Russell.
Overall value (and very unlikely he'll get a big contract) AND would very likely accept less to play with Booker in Phoenix. Maybe offer to resign him at a larger amount but on a shorter "prove it deal" and/or a team option or incentives. But he's the best value for a guard with legitimate size, scoring AND playmaking. BONUS- It would please Booker as they're close friends too. EXTRA BONUS- Shouldn't cost a draft asset to get him, AND in a paul/crowder swap, we'd likely be getting value assets back in the deal BECAUSE of how desperate Minnesota is to compete and validate the Gobert trade as successful.The big sell being how Paul could drastically improve Gobert's and Towns performances as he's proven time and again to do!

2- Rozier.
Best contractual value currently, and under control the longest. Possibly best scorer, BUT not really a playmaker. Bonus is it might not take as much to get him (asset wise) maybe a future 1st. He's also a very potent scorer and scrappy defender, but doesn't have the requisite size to provide a significant backcourt mismatch alongside Booker.

3- Van Vleet.
Best leadership qualities of the three and a very solid defender and big shot maker too. But will have a player option after next season, And will undoubtedly take it and be seeking well over 30 million while being 30 yrs old himself. And he's got sub optimal size that will be exploited in mismatches and frequently in the postseason like was done with Paul. Honestly, he shouldn't cost more than a moderately protected future first (becomes two 2nds) to get! Especially in a swap scenario with Paul.

I'd stay away from FVV. He is a chunky midget already. Looking for the last big bag which will pay his 5'11 frame 30+ mill at 33? Which is not even that far away from now for him? How is that helping, along with his fugly shootingpercentages, and his inability to make offense work with Barnes/OG and Siakam?!?! Thats not a PG, thats a mini-me shooting guard. No wonder Masai is trying to get rid of him (and the other one like him), and not his wings. Also, why would you want our "gm" to get into a trade with Masai? That would have nastier outcome than our last game 7.

Exactly right on FVV. He is close to 30 already. Forget that guy. And like you said, don't trust trading with Masai

Just hope the Suns can get to the trade deadline healther, Booker, Cam P and maybe CP3 playing and make our move

Initial thoughts on KD for Bridges, Cam, Crowder, plus picks?