Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[blacksun]

Didnt Hornacek say they were gonna visit Markieff this week? I wonder what happened to that.

[bwgood77]

Gasol's defense is atrocious. I don't think anything else needs to be said about him.

And Kieff has stellar defense? That's why we brought in Chandler.

Yes, Kieff is a solid defender. Leaps and bounds above Gasol.

Edit: Just so i don't have to look into advanced stats right now, here's an article that explains just how important Markieff is for Suns defense. http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2015/03/06/pay-attention-to-markieff-morris/

Nice find. I'll go ahead and quote the part about defense.

Morris’ main strength to the up-and-coming Suns team rests with his abilities on defense. While his base stats aren’t exactly eye-popping (0.5 BPG and 1.3 SPG in 31 minutes per game), the impact that he has on the team’s defense is massive. Per Basketball-Reference’s on/off numbers, the Suns defensive efficiency is nine points better per 100 possessions when Morris is on the court (103.8) compared to when he’s sitting (112.9). To put that in perspective, that defensive efficiency when he’s on the floor is more than a full point better than the league average (105.4).

While those on/off ratios are solid, they don’t tell the entire story of his defensive impact. In the same vein as other athletic frontcourt players, Morris has the size and quickness to be able to defend multiple positions. Sitting at 245 pounds, he’s definitely able to hold his own against some of the most powerful low-post threats. Per Synergy Sports Technology, opponents are averaging .783 PPP (points per possession) in post-ups against Morris, which is a better number than Marcin Gortat, Paul Millsap and Timofey Mozgov.

Morris uses his quickness on the defensive end by how he defends against pick-and-rolls. While the sample size is limited (only 59 possessions), big man screeners in the pick-and-roll are averaging only .78 PPP against Morris. The 6’10 forward is able to do that by being agile enough to stick with the opponent while they’re cutting to the rim, no matter if they’re a wing or front-court player.

[Saberestar]

I think sometimes people go to far with analytics. I know that Pau Gasol is older than Markieff, that is obvious, but this is the ONLY thing that is favouring Markieff over Gasol. Period. Only his age.

Pau Gasol is an All Star, this season he was an All Star...not five years ago or something like that... THIS LAST SEASON. He is a better rebounder, shot blocker, passer...he is smarter, taller, leader, etc etc..... in everything he is a better player than Markieff, it's not even close. And he is earning even less money per year, a bargain contract.

No way Chicago trade Pau Gasol, he is probably a future HOF that selected them to play for and he took less money to play with Rose, Noah and company to fight for a title. He will play at a high lever at least two or three more years and the Bulls value him a lot.

[Sunsdeuce]

I think sometimes people go to far with analytics. I know that Pau Gasol is older than Markieff, that is obvious, but this is the ONLY thing that is favouring Markieff over Gasol. Period. Only his age.

Pau Gasol is an All Star, this season he was an All Star...not five years ago or something like that... THIS LAST SEASON. He is a better rebounder, shot blocker, passer...he is smarter, taller, leader, etc etc..... in everything he is a better player than Markieff, it's not even close. And he is earning even less money per year, a bargain contract.

No way Chicago trade Pau Gasol, he is probably a future HOF that selected them to play for and he took less money to play with Rose, Noah and company to fight for a title. He will play at a high lever at least two or three more years and the Bulls value him a lot.

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

[AtheJ415]

I think sometimes people go to far with analytics. I know that Pau Gasol is older than Markieff, that is obvious, but this is the ONLY thing that is favouring Markieff over Gasol. Period. Only his age.

Pau Gasol is an All Star, this season he was an All Star...not five years ago or something like that... THIS LAST SEASON. He is a better rebounder, shot blocker, passer...he is smarter, taller, leader, etc etc..... in everything he is a better player than Markieff, it's not even close. And he is earning even less money per year, a bargain contract.

No way Chicago trade Pau Gasol, he is probably a future HOF that selected them to play for and he took less money to play with Rose, Noah and company to fight for a title. He will play at a high lever at least two or three more years and the Bulls value him a lot.

No. Markieff has a top 2 mid-range game. He's also faster, and imo also quicker than Gasol at this point. Also defense, as mentioned above. Gasol is the better player. He's also a decade older. It's not just a little age difference, it's massive. It's the difference between someone continuing to get better and someone guaranteed to get worse. It's also the difference between helping the team for the next 2 seasons and helping the team for the next 12 seasons.

[AtheJ415]

I think sometimes people go to far with analytics. I know that Pau Gasol is older than Markieff, that is obvious, but this is the ONLY thing that is favouring Markieff over Gasol. Period. Only his age.

Pau Gasol is an All Star, this season he was an All Star...not five years ago or something like that... THIS LAST SEASON. He is a better rebounder, shot blocker, passer...he is smarter, taller, leader, etc etc..... in everything he is a better player than Markieff, it's not even close. And he is earning even less money per year, a bargain contract.

No way Chicago trade Pau Gasol, he is probably a future HOF that selected them to play for and he took less money to play with Rose, Noah and company to fight for a title. He will play at a high lever at least two or three more years and the Bulls value him a lot.

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

[AtheJ415]

If the goal is to win a championship, then I want to hear a realistic scenario from the Gasolites that explains how Gasol helps us do that. He's better than Kieff, but the age gap allows Kieff to feasibly contribute by the time we are able to compete. With Gasol we have to be contenders now or next year for him to be able to help us reach our goal. It's really that simple. So how do we add more on top of Gasol to actually contend?

[plonden]

Markieff has a top 2 mid-range game.

Putting aside the Pau versus Markieff debate, you've said this a couple of times now. Who, in your opinion, has the top mid-range game? Just curious. Also, some mid-range shots and especially long-twos are the least efficient shots in the NBA. So, while it's nice to have a top-tier skill, I'd rather have a player who shoots more valuable shots--either at the rim or behind the three-point line. Trevor Ariza is a pretty good example of a fairly limited player who maximizes his scoring by only taking threes or layups/dunks.

[letsgosuns]

Surprised that some people are comparing Markieff to Gasol. There is no comparison. Gasol is a premier all-star center. Has been most of his career. Markieff is a bench playing power forward forced to start on a bad team that has no power forward better than him. What are people comparing?

Now when it comes to the age factor, if the Suns were in win-now mode and like they were when they had Nash and Hill, then you definitely trade for Gasol. But now that Chandler is on the team and provides virtually everything the Suns were lacking inside last year, trading for Gasol is kind of redundant, even though he is a great player.

If the Suns are going to trade Markieff, which obviously I hope they do, Gasol is not a player that really fits the direction of the team. Sure he would make them better and give them an inside scorer, but he is not going to make them championship contenders. The time when he was able to elevate a team to that status has most likely passed. I might be wrong, but I doubt Gasol hoists up any more championship trophies during his career. I would rather the Suns trade Markieff for a collection of assets such as young, unproven players and/or two first round picks with little to no protection.

[bwgood77]

Markieff has a top 2 mid-range game.

Putting aside the Pau versus Markieff debate, you've said this a couple of times now. Who, in your opinion, has the top mid-range game? Just curious. Also, some mid-range shots and especially long-twos are the least efficient shots in the NBA. So, while it's nice to have a top-tier skill, I'd rather have a player who shoots more valuable shots--either at the rim or behind the three-point line. Trevor Ariza is a pretty good example of a fairly limited player who maximizes his scoring by only taking threes or layups/dunks.

The midrange game has become increasingly more important with teams focusing on only protecting the rim and the 3 pt line. Of course if teams can maximize their offense in those two areas, they will not be beat with mid range 2's, but it is a skill that can be useful, especially with great mid range guys like Kieff and Warren. I would love it if both can improve their range, but leaving elite midr ange shooters open, if you can play good D, it can probably work fairly well.

[Saberestar]

I think sometimes people go to far with analytics. I know that Pau Gasol is older than Markieff, that is obvious, but this is the ONLY thing that is favouring Markieff over Gasol. Period. Only his age.

Pau Gasol is an All Star, this season he was an All Star...not five years ago or something like that... THIS LAST SEASON. He is a better rebounder, shot blocker, passer...he is smarter, taller, leader, etc etc..... in everything he is a better player than Markieff, it's not even close. And he is earning even less money per year, a bargain contract.

No way Chicago trade Pau Gasol, he is probably a future HOF that selected them to play for and he took less money to play with Rose, Noah and company to fight for a title. He will play at a high lever at least two or three more years and the Bulls value him a lot.

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

[Sunsdeuce]

I think sometimes people go to far with analytics. I know that Pau Gasol is older than Markieff, that is obvious, but this is the ONLY thing that is favouring Markieff over Gasol. Period. Only his age.

Pau Gasol is an All Star, this season he was an All Star...not five years ago or something like that... THIS LAST SEASON. He is a better rebounder, shot blocker, passer...he is smarter, taller, leader, etc etc..... in everything he is a better player than Markieff, it's not even close. And he is earning even less money per year, a bargain contract.

No way Chicago trade Pau Gasol, he is probably a future HOF that selected them to play for and he took less money to play with Rose, Noah and company to fight for a title. He will play at a high lever at least two or three more years and the Bulls value him a lot.

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to trade for gasol because of his advanced age. The point was anyone who says markeiff is better than gasol is just silly and making stuff up.

[bwgood77]

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

He might be better than Markieff, but if you want to seriously compete 3-4 years from now when most of our players are in their prime, why trade for him? He likely won't be traded anyway, but what is your goal? Just to make the playoffs? It is amazing to me how many people have the Sarver mentality.

[AtheJ415]

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to trade for gasol because of his advanced age. The point was anyone who says markeiff is better than gasol is just silly and making stuff up.

Okay, but I haven't seen a single person argue that.

[saintEscaton]

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

He might be better than Markieff, but if you want to seriously compete 3-4 years from now when most of our players are in their prime, why trade for him? He likely won't be traded anyway, but what is your goal? Just to make the playoffs? It is amazing to me how many people have the Sarver mentality.

If you think Kieff is a starting caliber piece of our future core 3-4 years down the road you are also buying into the Sarver mentality. He's best served as a temporary stopgap until an opportunity presents itself and we sell high and get whatever is available in return. Dealing him now when his value is rock bottom wouldn't even set us back much in the longterm and if push comes to shove and he demands out so be it. In fact the only reason the FO would prefer to retain him is to remain in the hunt because our frontcourt would be in shambles without his scoring contribution and we have no better alternative as of now. But I agree Gasol is not the asnwer for a team like us and nothing short of a bonafide superstar in his prime could singlehandedly elevate this sorry bunch into contention

[AtheJ415]

Markieff has a top 2 mid-range game.

Putting aside the Pau versus Markieff debate, you've said this a couple of times now. Who, in your opinion, has the top mid-range game? Just curious. Also, some mid-range shots and especially long-twos are the least efficient shots in the NBA. So, while it's nice to have a top-tier skill, I'd rather have a player who shoots more valuable shots--either at the rim or behind the three-point line. Trevor Ariza is a pretty good example of a fairly limited player who maximizes his scoring by only taking threes or layups/dunks.

Courtesy of Suns91fan in a previous post.

[url]http://bkref.com/tiny/2vfzH
[/url]


It's not my opinion. It's stats. Chris Paul is the only guy shooting the mid-range J better. Not sure why the URL code is looking like that.

[AtheJ415]

Could not have said it better. Pau contribution (regardless of what analytics say) far out weights what markeiff brings. Even at his advanced age. To add on to this Pau IQ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>markeiff iq.

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

Okay, but that's not what I'm asking. My point was do you think Gasol will be better beyond the next 2 years--not during the next 2 years. I think Gasol will be better than Kieff next year and maybe the year after. I just don't think we'll be legitimate contenders during that time (I think our window starts 3 years from now). Given that, I want the guy who will be better 3, 4, and 5 years down the line. Gasol cannot feasibly be playing at an all-star level at ages 38-40. I think Kieff at 28-30 is better than Gasol at 38-40.

[batsmasher]

Those Synergy numbers for Kieff definitely don't meet the eye test. Damn, imagine if he gave a stuff with rebounding. He'd be a massive plus defensively.

[Frank Lee]

If Keif isn't all in, then he's all out. I think its that simple. McDuh has outlined the 'type' of suns payer he wants. Right now, Keif is not exactly displaying those qualities. Its not all about #s and %s (or Gasol)

If he wants a trade, accommodate him. I trust McDuh to wheel a deal if so. He has pulled a few surprises in his time here. Why not one more?

Its not like Keif will be the difference between a 5th seed and a 10th. We aren't going to be that good anyway.

[SideSwipe]

This was never about who is better, history shows who is better, this is about getting better and becoming a more attractive place to come play. And if there is one guy in the league with a contract more attractive than Kieff's its Gasol. Gasol gets you more wins than Kieff for the next 2-3 years. The trade I proposed also brought back Caboclo from TOR, something that seems to have been ignored in the discussions. He's not a huge piece but a promising one that could grow with the younger core.

Every team that has won the championship has had a mix of veteran, mid-career and young players. That's SA's formula. They keep an experienced core and pair them with youngsters on cheap contracts. When the youngsters get more expensive, they move them and bring in more experienced guys.

In terms of CHI moving Gasol, they will need to do something on that club with all of their front court talent, and lack of depth/ strength at the 3. Suns were rumored to have interested in Gasol when he was in LA. CHI has Gibson, Noah, Mirotic, Gasol, Portis all worthy of minutes in the front court. I think Noah will be back stronger this year, which will give CHI big problems to manage everyone. Someone is getting traded. Hoiberg will bring in a new system, we will see who fits his system the best.