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2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions

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Initial thoughts on KD for Bridges, Cam, Crowder, plus picks?

Love it!
15
25%
Indifferent
3
5%
Hate it
24
39%
Wait and see...
19
31%
 
Total votes: 61

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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#801 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:37 pm

Saberestar wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:He probably just doesn't have a coach who knows how to use him or a PG that lets him excel :)

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Ayton's shots decreased by five going from Rubio to CP3. I can't understand why people around here act like it's all on Ayton and his development has nothing to do with how he's been used. It's both.

And we went from a non-playoff team to the Finals.

Team success over individual success.

I think for now the team is much better with Ayton on an smaller role and that was verified with his meh games recently as a primary option on offense.


As long as the team is healthy, I think he can get as many shots as the defense gives in a game. Ideally this will and probably should be about 12-15 shots a game. But it can be more. Most of his games with around 20 shots prior to all the injuries resulted in between 28-31 points. He had 5 or 6 of those prior to additional injuries to and losses or more players than just Cam, Paul and Crowder.

Ayton scored about 1.45 pps the last two years, but is at 1.31 this year
The other starters are as follows:
Book and CP3 hover around 1.3. Book being on higher volume with so much self creation makes this more impressive than anyone else.
Cam was at 1.35 PPS last year, second best on team, but is first this year at 1.41 ppg
Bridges is at 1.25 this year but at 1.35 last year.

Bridges AND Ayton are down on efficiency this year largely because of taking on top two options with no other options or any ballhandlers for a decent stretch, and it really impacted both of their efficiency compared to what is was prior to that and last year.

The others have played almost exclusively when at least 4 of the starters were there, and have remained about the same with efficiency, except Cam, who was the only guy to play all his games early when team was fully healthy and is hot upon return with only Book missing out of starting lineup (albeit on small sample size).

I think people focus a little too much on # of shots or who is what option, but I think it depends on what the opposing defense is giving, who is hot, etc. Shots will vary and different guys will step up. Ayton and Cam are great to utilize if open or facing mismatches and Book is the best option against a tough D where everyone is well guarded (or Paul when he is/was at the top of his game). Bridges has been but typically takes open 3s and cuts to the basket, though I think he has has added some nice self creation (though I'm sure some disagree with this).

Our team started winning more when Paul came mostly because he is a top notch HOF PG and our young guys were in their 2nd and 3rd years. (Cam in second but was in college 4 years..Bridges 3rd but in college 4 years..Ayton the least experienced with 1 college year and going into 3rd year, but he rapidly improved too). Paul was the perfect leader, not only on the court but off the court, and emphasized defense to Book and Ayton and helped the other guys with efficiency, making sure he dissected and took advantage of the defense. In addition, Ayton really worked on his midrange game and hook shots and became elite from the field last year...after being nearly elite the year before in comparisons with other Cs across the league when looking at efficiency and volume.

Our team and invividual players, +/-, on/off, etc, is too difficult to really analyze or put much stock into, and given lineups, Ayton and Bridges efficiency have taken big hits when so many people are out.

It's really quite obvious but so many ignore all that and thought/think they suddenly got a lot worse on offense after both being elite in efficiency the last two years, both among league leaders.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#802 » by sunsbg » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:37 pm

Saberestar wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:He probably just doesn't have a coach who knows how to use him or a PG that lets him excel :)

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Ayton's shots decreased by five going from Rubio to CP3. I can't understand why people around here act like it's all on Ayton and his development has nothing to do with how he's been used. It's both.

And we went from a non-playoff team to the Finals.

Team success over individual success.

I think for now the team is much better with Ayton on an smaller role and that was verified with his meh games recently as a primary option on offense.


You don't draft someone with Nr1 pick and get him five less shots after he averages efficient 18. You take those shots from players you won't ask in future to carry the team like in current situation. Neither you develop one of your best players, but also let a lesser player like Crowder think he deserves a bigger role. Sure, it was fun watching JC chuck all those shots in that Gm7. Great coaching.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#803 » by schnakenpopanz » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:38 pm

bigfoot wrote:BEST CENTERS ... PLAYING AT LEAST 658 MINUTES
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WORST CENTERS ... PLAYING AT LEAST 658 MINUTES
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EVERYBODY ON THE SUNS ... PLAYING AT LEAST 1 MINUTE
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Real numbers that support the eye test that Ayton doesn't play defense, isn't that great on offense, and is frankly lazy and overpaid
and saric sucks!
like I always said

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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#804 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:42 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
sunskerr wrote:Hes ok. Hes not a star so hes expendable for the right trade if we feel it makes us better. Thats all. Dont trade him to get worse but better. Not much else to it. The main (probably only, really) reason Im cautious to trade Ayton for other role players is that he's really mobile at 7 ft so there's no defensive matchup where he's getting physically played off the court and thats valuable in the playoffs. I could give a **** about his scoring. But if there's an upgrade i.e. real shot creator he's out the door.

lilfishi gets it. offense isnt about your FG%.


Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#805 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:43 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Read on Twitter

lol Gambo
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#806 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:48 pm

BobbieL wrote:The Ringer has these trades - one is Suns related:

Read on Twitter


Phoenix gets: OG Anunoby
Toronto gets: Jae Crowder, Dario Saric, and three unprotected first-round picks (2024, 2026, and 2028)


What about if the Suns could flip Crowder to the Bucks for the aforementioned deal of Hill, Ibaka and Nwora - take those players and multiple second rounders and take one FRP off the board for OG Anunoby? I would feel a little bit better

The HARDEST of passes

I like OG but the guy can't seem to stay healthy and 3 unprotected picks for a guy who isn't even an all-star is overpay to the highest degree
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#807 » by WeekapaugGroove » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:48 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
sunskerr wrote:Hes ok. Hes not a star so hes expendable for the right trade if we feel it makes us better. Thats all. Dont trade him to get worse but better. Not much else to it. The main (probably only, really) reason Im cautious to trade Ayton for other role players is that he's really mobile at 7 ft so there's no defensive matchup where he's getting physically played off the court and thats valuable in the playoffs. I could give a **** about his scoring. But if there's an upgrade i.e. real shot creator he's out the door.

lilfishi gets it. offense isnt about your FG%.


Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.
See the logic is Booker and CP are good but they hold Ayton back, but if he plays with bad guards that really holds him back. So what he needs is DIFFERENT good guards... then it Dominayton season.


I don't agree but as far as I can tell that's the logic used.

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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#808 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:00 pm

Kevin Pelton: At the risk of stating the obvious, the Phoenix Suns have to find a deal for Jae Crowder, who hasn't played all season while away from the team. Phoenix appears to have weathered the worst of the injuries that cratered depth in early January, but with Chris Paul's age and Cameron Payne still sidelined, more guard depth would be helpful. And the Suns should at least explore a bigger deal to add a difference-maker with no clear favorite in the West.


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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#809 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:03 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:
I got to be honest could care less what he does during the regular season as long as he shows up in the playoffs and so far he has, as soon as he doesn't ill jump on board and we can trade him as soon as possible.


Too much noise this season in these +/- and on/off advanced stats anyway. Very misleading due to players having to play with crap starting lineups while others didn't have to. Bridges also playing against many benches which helps him a bit in this regard, so #s like this for this season with shuffling lineups and weird rotation patterns are pretty meaningless if you understand the metrics.
Oh I agree that +/- should be taken with a giant grain of salt but it's still not great look for DA.

Side note, everyone's favorite 'oh my we let him get away' guy Jalen Smith has been pretty **** bad this season. Yes occasionally he posts a decent box score but his advanced stats are rough.

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Sure, in comparison to other bigs. But on the Suns specific table, DA is definitively the worst on there. Damion Lee, Bridges, Craig also played with the same crappy line ups DA has had to as well. You *can* make a comparison looking at the Suns. Totally agree with Smith. He looked solid in his 22 games with Pacers last season but this season has been pretty ugly
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#810 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:04 pm

spanishninja wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
spanishninja wrote:
the thing though is...the playoffs take place AFTER the trade deadline, and we already squandered a chance to make a deadline move last year based on Ayton's "promise" of delivering in the playoffs. his postseason last year was so-so, playing well in the first round but was invisible against Dallas. We could have gotten Sabonis, as Indy clearly wanted Ayton to begin with.


Who on this team wasn't honestly invisible in the playoffs last year against Dallas though? And obviously without both Paul and Ayton balling out, we clearly wouldn't of even made it out of the first round. The reality though between the two is that Paul's career is winding down and Ayton's is still just beginning at only 24. Paul will be gone as early as sometime next season and we obviously have still not been able to add any significant talent here through free agency or trades. We need more talent on this team to support Booker after Paul's departure and yet you have so many just jumping to trade Aygon off this team for any and every reason they can come up with.

So basically Paul would be gone, and Ayton would be traded for scraps and people think this would somehow help us sustain competitiveness?? Losing elite talent never helps. Honestly I should just quietly not fight against it because losing Paul and then casting off Ayton for an obviously lesser return legitimately puts us closer to the lottery than we currently are. So then we can enjoy the draft thread more! But for some crazy reason I'm actually fighting to keep what talent we have and sustain some level of competitive ability. Am I wrong here to want that?


well I am not saying to trade Ayton for scraps, but just saying we definitely lost out on a chance to grab Sabonis last year by possibly overvaluing Ayton. Very likely we missed the boat on that one and are stuck with DA but not necessarily happy about it.
FWIW I don't think a Sabonis/Ayton trade got much support from the Suns fanbase. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but I don't think I would've done the deal back then. Whether it's overvaluing or overconfidence in DA, it does look like a missed opportunity now but I don't really think about it
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#811 » by bwgood77 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:04 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
sunskerr wrote:Hes ok. Hes not a star so hes expendable for the right trade if we feel it makes us better. Thats all. Dont trade him to get worse but better. Not much else to it. The main (probably only, really) reason Im cautious to trade Ayton for other role players is that he's really mobile at 7 ft so there's no defensive matchup where he's getting physically played off the court and thats valuable in the playoffs. I could give a **** about his scoring. But if there's an upgrade i.e. real shot creator he's out the door.

lilfishi gets it. offense isnt about your FG%.


Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.


True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#812 » by sunsbg » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:09 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.
See the logic is Booker and CP are good but they hold Ayton back, but if he plays with bad guards that really holds him back. So what he needs is DIFFERENT good guards... then it Dominayton season.


I don't agree but as far as I can tell that's the logic used.

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It's actually a pretty simple logic. You take someone with Nr1 pick - you don't decrease his shots by 33% after efficient scoring season. Rubio, CP3 - doesn't matter.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#813 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:12 pm

sunsbg wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
sunsbum wrote:Jalen Smith racking up the DNPs on 11th seed Pacers in case all his fans conveniently stopped following him :wink:
He probably just doesn't have a coach who knows how to use him or a PG that lets him excel :)

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Ayton's shots decreased by five going from Rubio to CP3. I can't understand why people around here act like it's all on Ayton and his development has nothing to do with how he's been used. It's both.

With CP3 he also became a far more efficient player, a far better defensive player and he's nearly perfected those 4 moves he has.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#814 » by Ghost of Kleine » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:12 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.
See the logic is Booker and CP are good but they hold Ayton back, but if he plays with bad guards that really holds him back. So what he needs is DIFFERENT good guards... then it Dominayton season.


I don't agree but as far as I can tell that's the logic used.

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LOL I challenge you or anyone else to show a post I've made stating "Paul and Book are holding Ayton back! Because clearly I've never once said that. I've ever only said it would be beneficial to incorporate or feature him more in the offense IF they truly want to see greater in game development (similar to what Bridges has enjoyed) being featured more as the 3rd option in games. But everyone feel free to spin things whatever way you think benefits your narratives or arguments. Regardless of oppositional opinions here, the plain truth is that Ayton still normally scores with elite efficiency. And this is absolutely logical in premise of making him more of a factor to help collapse opposing defenses more frequently and not only getting higher percentage shot opportunities for our perimeter players to get in a good offensive flow. But also makes Ayton more of a notable threat and thusly taking pressure off of Book and Paul in the offensive scheme. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for so many to consider??

Ayton being featured as more of an offensive focal point given his elite offensive efficiency forces the defense to collapse on him. This in turn very obviously opens up the perimeter for Paul, Booker, Bridges, Johnson, even Shamet to get more wide open higher percentage looks. In being able to do this more easily, it also affords BOTH Paul and Book less wear and tear/ early exhaustion from having to ISO create and break down defenses. Also allowing them to conserve key energy early on to use in the 4th to more effectively close out games. Can everyone not truly see/ understand the principle benefits here? These considerations are my logic to make our offense easier and to try and conserve Paul and Book more and minimize the pressure and wear and tear on them down the stretch. But please, continue to deride my logic further. :D
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#815 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:19 pm

schnakenpopanz wrote:
bigfoot wrote:BEST CENTERS ... PLAYING AT LEAST 658 MINUTES
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WORST CENTERS ... PLAYING AT LEAST 658 MINUTES
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EVERYBODY ON THE SUNS ... PLAYING AT LEAST 1 MINUTE
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Real numbers that support the eye test that Ayton doesn't play defense, isn't that great on offense, and is frankly lazy and overpaid
and saric sucks!
like I always said

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It's too noisy to definitively make that statement. Playing with bad line ups etc etc etc :wink:
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#816 » by WeekapaugGroove » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:21 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.


True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.
And that's why you don't draft a C 1.1 unless he can be one of those guys :)


Ghost - I wasn't specifically talking about you, I was just having a little fun with some of the things I see about Ayton around here.

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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#817 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:25 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:

He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.


True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.

Which proves the point I've been arguing with a bunch of other posters about, without CP3/Book, he's not who they think he could be.
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#818 » by Ghost of Kleine » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:38 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:He's really only done so when playing with CP3/Book, it running the offense through them with DA being a contributor. With CP3, Book and Payne being out for extended periods this season and not creating as much of those easy scoring opportunities for him, his efficiency hasn't been elite.


True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.
And that's why you don't draft a C 1.1 unless he can be one of those guys :)


Ghost - I wasn't specifically talking about you, I was just having a little fun with some of the things I see about Ayton around here.

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I understand man! :thumbsup:
With Ayton I just want us to best utilize what he's good at while he's here to take pressure off of Paul and Book, and get our shooting back. And you're right about drafting bigs predominantly in the draft that high. But with Ayton I think they just had a very specific idea around what they planned to do. And didn't choose Doncic because they didn't envision how having two ball dominant players could ultimately be successful? I still think Ayton can play a significant role with this team under new ownership and might even experience renewed passion and investment absent of Saver, and the dark oppressive, foreboding chaos attached to him. So I'm trying to stay positive and excited towards this new era and potential growth. :nod:
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#819 » by sunsbum » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:42 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Unless that offense just happens to be on historically elite efficiency that can afford you double/double production on any given night! :dontknow:
So what he needs is DIFFERENT good guards... then it Dominayton season.

:lol:
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Re: 2022-23 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - Trade season continues - No player trade restrictions 

Post#820 » by sunsbum » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:46 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
True, which goes for most all players when all their ball handlers are out. Most all Cs outside of about 2 or 3 do you want as one of your primary ball handlers.
And that's why you don't draft a C 1.1 unless he can be one of those guys :)


Ghost - I wasn't specifically talking about you, I was just having a little fun with some of the things I see about Ayton around here.

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I understand man! :thumbsup:
With Ayton I just want us to best utilize what he's good at while he's here to take pressure off of Paul and Book, and get our shooting back. And you're right about drafting bigs predominantly in the draft that high. But with Ayton I think they just had a very specific idea around what they planned to do. And didn't choose Doncic because they didn't envision how having two ball dominant players could ultimately be successful? I still think Ayton can play a significant role with this team under new ownership and might even experience renewed passion and investment absent of Saver, and the dark oppressive, foreboding chaos attached to him. So I'm trying to stay positive and excited towards this new era and potential growth. :nod:
This isn't a shot at you at all, but imagine having renewed passion for the game because of a new owner. Lets throw that one at the wall though and see if it sticks cause I've been out of suggestions for years.
"Mannnnn I’m like the guy that pissed this whole board off saying literally all year no Mikal, no Mikal in the KD trade."

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