The Official 2025 Offseason Thread Part 1

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[BobbieL]

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First, why is he yelling?

Second, whats with the mullett

Third -- typical Ishbia - just spend more money to "look like he is doing something"

If he doesn't fire Jones, it just proves he was involved with all those trades. As if Jones truly made those trades on his own, he would be fired by now

[Slim Charless]

Zion is a major gamble is the reason. Not many GMs wanna make that roll of the dice. Tho as GoK has pointed out multiple times-his contract is very team friendly. Alot of it is non guaranteed.

He will be very motivated. Especially if he's on a new team. If he can't play up to his potential next year, then he's done.

On paper though-he offers what we need next to Booker out of our PF spot:

-ELITE gravity at the basket. He's Shaq level there.
-Fantastic ability to pass and handle the ball for a 4.
-Potential MVP level player
-Very young and fits Booker's timeline.

If Zion plays like he can, then he's our #1 and makes Booker possibly the best #2 in the league. With Dunn there as a lock down defender. That's a lot to work with.

Of the higher dollar players have seen floated
KAT
Markkanen
Zion

I would probably pick Zion of those three for the reasons you mention. High reward. And since Mattyish likes to make a statement - he makes sense

I don't see Mat ever wanting to take a longer approach - more like "make a splash" and go year by year

My goodness, noooo...
Markannen is also a superb athlete. He is 7-0 and can play SF and PF and defend most Cs without trouble. Shoots from three, from two, moves well without the ball... and he is coachable, listen to coaches, never caused a problem, focused, young... big difference there.
Zion could have a higher cealing IFFFFF... if he decides somehow to go for it. I just see Zion playing at the level he is supposed to if he has a role model in the locker room who leads by example and also has the aura to be an example. Lebron, Kobe back then... cannot think of any other player right now with the combination of desire, physical abilities, influence, basketball level...

The amount needed to get Lauri will be much more than Zion.

The only reason that you guys keep seeing me talk about him is cause the asking price will be small. Pels are gonna give him away IMO. Dealing with Ainge is gonna be a nightmare and I have 0 interest in our front office risking it with him.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

Miami gets KD.

Phoenix gets Kel' El Ware/ Rozier/ Robinson/ GS 25' 1st (20th pick)/ MIA 30' 1st (top 5 protected).

[sunsfan1o1]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

Miami gets KD.

Phoenix gets Kel' El Ware/ Rozier/ Robinson/ GS 25' 1st (20th pick)/ MIA 30' 1st (top 5 protected).

This has to be the worst mock trade I’ve seen.
We’re talking about Kevin Durant. You’re ok with taking their trash and 1 protected pick and a late first rounder? Just keep Durant.

[Saberestar]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

Miami gets KD.

Phoenix gets Kel' El Ware/ Rozier/ Robinson/ GS 25' 1st (20th pick)/ MIA 30' 1st (top 5 protected).

This has to be the worst mock trade I’ve seen.
We’re talking about Kevin Durant. You’re ok with taking their trash and 1 protected pick and a late first rounder? Just keep Durant.

This.

That trade proposal is one of the worse that I have seen lately.

All the Houston trades and Spurs trades that I have seen are better than this one. Ware isn't a sure thing at all. There are sure things like Castle and in that case you get whatever and him...but in this case you basically only 1 FRP (and not unprotected) and garbage that probably will be out of the league soon (Rozier).

[Slim Charless]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

This has to be the worst mock trade I’ve seen.
We’re talking about Kevin Durant. You’re ok with taking their trash and 1 protected pick and a late first rounder? Just keep Durant.

This.

That trade proposal is one of the worse that I have seen lately.

All the Houston trades and Spurs trades that I have seen are better than this one. Ware isn't a sure thing at all. There are sure things like Castle and in that case you get whatever and him...but in this case you basically only 1 FRP (and not unprotected) and garbage that probably will be out of the league soon (Rozier).

You're not gonna get Castle unless you give up Booker. Getting Ware and 2FRPs is a fine deal. Ware is a legit option at the 5. Rozier can play PG for us for a year while we draft PGOTF this year.

I'd take that deal and definitely hope to hire Quinn.

[schnakenpopanz]

KEvin Durant is still a top 10 player in this league. Yes he is getting older, but with the right circumstances he could be a missing piece in a young and upcoming team to compete instantly.

[Sunsdeuce]

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First, why is he yelling?

Second, whats with the mullett

Third -- typical Ishbia - just spend more money to "look like he is doing something"

If he doesn't fire Jones, it just proves he was involved with all those trades. As if Jones truly made those trades on his own, he would be fired by now

Bickley always yells. And he’s always had that weird haircut. Running joke in AZ is thaf he looks like a middle aged lesbian.

[dremill24]

Spoiler:

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Actually pretty much all were incomplete or short of equitable value. And of course a lot of recieving teams fans showed their implicit biases by downplaying KDs potential value in trades as if he was Landry Shamet or Paul George on his current contract or something ridiculous like that!

Short of equitable value? The Rockets trade will get us 2 FRP and a swap plus Jabari/Reed and salary filler. Reed was the #3 pick so that's virtually a 3rd FRP. I think that's a very solid trade

Yes! Short of equitable value which should be obvious to most! So what if Sheppard was a top 5 pick, he hasn't shown much of anything during his time in the league so far, he's averaged what again? 4 points 1 rebound, 1 assist on 35% FG/ 33% 3 PT shooting, and had a 1.7 BPM and a 0.1 VORP.

By that logic that he has value because virtue of the fact that he's a # 3 pick, James Wiseman was a #2 pick, Patrick Williams was # 4, should we trade KD forva package with those players by virtue of pick range?


Johnny Davis was a top 10 lottery pick, Jalil Okafor a # 3 pick too, Alex Len was a top 5 pick, Dragan Bender a top 4 pick, Would you accept any of them as a quality value pieces by virtue of their draft range in a KD trade? you get the picture....right??


Throughout NBA history we've had countless high picks that never really turned out to contribute much, offered any measurable impact, or flat out busted and are out of the league already! Pick range does not substantiate value. Hence the popular phrase " The draft is a crapshoot"!!!

Sheppard was brought in to do one thing, SHOOT! AND SCORE!! and he can't even do that or hasn't shown that yet? His value is at best a 10 million salary filler not a positive value asset, maybe a neutral currently??


Landale is an end of bench big who couldn't score or do much of anything in out last game against them, and a pick swap!............really??


Which team do people really think will be worse down the road, rockets already a top 2 team with an elite defense, and now adding KD, or us giving up KD, only having Booker and some young pieces when we couldn't even make the play in with our big three.

Now we're giving up the best player in the trade and losing not only a HOF elite level impact player, but almost triple double efficiency and the gravity he commanded to keep double and triple teams off of Booker most nights. Who exactly do we pick up that's really going to help replace that output/ impact??

So giving up a pick swap would obviously only return value back to Houston in getting a very likely better pick than whatever there's would be in that swap year. That swap then reduces the overall return value of that KD trade.


Why should Houston get a " best of pick outcome (swap) when we're the team giving up the best asset in the deal and obviously going to get worse in the immediate future by virtue of lost production/ impact?

Which of course would benefit Houston greatly with that swap? Did we learn nothing yet about the potential damage of pick swaps given our current outcome ??Surely upon further reflection you and those that agreed with you here can see this right?? The only real value we're actually getting here would be D Brooks as a defensive agitator, Smith Jr as a young floor spacing 3 & D forward and the 2 picks.

But a pick swap basically returns that value of one of those picks by virtue of us obviously being much worse than a top 2 playoff team adding KD in the coming years, so they'd get the much higher pick!

And Sheppard is so far just unrealized potential on very disappointing production and efficiency that may or MAY NOT ever pan out??? We HAVE TO nail every move from here on out to avoid a very long painful rebuild sooner rather than later!

This trade falls short of equitable value. Take out the pick swap altogether and switch Sheppard with Eason or Whitmore and then it's solid and equitable for sure by comparison.

Im not going to get sucked into a long, drawn out thing here. But I do have to say that you have the swap thing completely wrong to the point that I dont even understand how you would get there. Also think you're underselling Sheppard and the picks, but thats just subjective.

[bwgood77]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

Miami gets KD.

Phoenix gets Kel' El Ware/ Rozier/ Robinson/ GS 25' 1st (20th pick)/ MIA 30' 1st (top 5 protected).

That is a very good package. I'm not much of a fan of Robinson or Rozier, but they both can play, possibly have trade value, and to get Ware and two firsts would be awesome.

[Saberestar]

This has to be the worst mock trade I’ve seen.
We’re talking about Kevin Durant. You’re ok with taking their trash and 1 protected pick and a late first rounder? Just keep Durant.

This.

That trade proposal is one of the worse that I have seen lately.

All the Houston trades and Spurs trades that I have seen are better than this one. Ware isn't a sure thing at all. There are sure things like Castle and in that case you get whatever and him...but in this case you basically only 1 FRP (and not unprotected) and garbage that probably will be out of the league soon (Rozier).

You're not gonna get Castle unless you give up Booker. Getting Ware and 2FRPs is a fine deal. Ware is a legit option at the 5. Rozier can play PG for us for a year while we draft PGOTF this year.

I'd take that deal and definitely hope to hire Quinn.

I am not saying about getting Castle, I just say that Ware is treated like he is a rookie as great as Castle in this trade proposal.

Look, I would consider this offer if those 2 FRPs were UNPROTECTED. Those picks (particularly one of them) don't have too much value IMO.

Duncan Robinson...OK, he can play 20 mpg for us. Solid role player.

Rozier? One of the worst players in the entire league this season. His contract is a big negative even as a expiring.

So all in all this is a very bad offer IMO and I wouldn't accept it.

[bwgood77]

I don't understand any reasoning on keeping KD. The ONLY reasoning I could see if the deals are pathetic but we extend him or whatever and still plan to deal him at the deadline when teams may give up more.

But keeping him is so dumb I don't even know where to start. This team is going nowhere. There are like 10 teams better than us in the west, at least. I don't care who coaches us.

We really need to just take the best offer, admit that it's time to try and start to rebuild/retool, etc. I mean I know Book doesn't want to rebuild or whatever, or Ishbia, but people always make fun of treadmill teams that stay in the 5-7 seed range but never become contenders, as if that is the worst place to be. But being a treadmill team in the 10-14 range is worse, especially when you are getting older and have no lottery picks.

The team was for the most part unwatchable. They are not going to become watchable if we just make a couple minor tweaks and get a new coach.

[bwgood77]

This.

That trade proposal is one of the worse that I have seen lately.

All the Houston trades and Spurs trades that I have seen are better than this one. Ware isn't a sure thing at all. There are sure things like Castle and in that case you get whatever and him...but in this case you basically only 1 FRP (and not unprotected) and garbage that probably will be out of the league soon (Rozier).

You're not gonna get Castle unless you give up Booker. Getting Ware and 2FRPs is a fine deal. Ware is a legit option at the 5. Rozier can play PG for us for a year while we draft PGOTF this year.

I'd take that deal and definitely hope to hire Quinn.

I am not saying about getting Castle, I just say that Ware is treated like he is a rookie as great as Castle in this trade proposal.

Look, I would consider this offer if those 2 FRPs were UNPROTECTED. Those picks (particularly one of them) don't have too much value IMO.

Duncan Robinson...OK, he can play 20 mpg for us. Solid role player.

Rozier? One of the worst players in the entire league this season. His contract is a big negative even as a expiring.

So all in all this is a very bad offer IMO and I wouldn't accept it.

It seems sometimes people view unprotected as a bigger deal than it should be. Now it is a big deal, but a team like Miami is unlikely to be one of the worst, and even if they were, and it was protected, it would likely role over to the next year with less protection. Few teams trade unprotected picks that willingly other than us.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Spoiler:

Short of equitable value? The Rockets trade will get us 2 FRP and a swap plus Jabari/Reed and salary filler. Reed was the #3 pick so that's virtually a 3rd FRP. I think that's a very solid trade

Yes! Short of equitable value which should be obvious to most! So what if Sheppard was a top 5 pick, he hasn't shown much of anything during his time in the league so far, he's averaged what again? 4 points 1 rebound, 1 assist on 35% FG/ 33% 3 PT shooting, and had a 1.7 BPM and a 0.1 VORP.

By that logic that he has value because virtue of the fact that he's a # 3 pick, James Wiseman was a #2 pick, Patrick Williams was # 4, should we trade KD forva package with those players by virtue of pick range?


Johnny Davis was a top 10 lottery pick, Jalil Okafor a # 3 pick too, Alex Len was a top 5 pick, Dragan Bender a top 4 pick, Would you accept any of them as a quality value pieces by virtue of their draft range in a KD trade? you get the picture....right??


Throughout NBA history we've had countless high picks that never really turned out to contribute much, offered any measurable impact, or flat out busted and are out of the league already! Pick range does not substantiate value. Hence the popular phrase " The draft is a crapshoot"!!!

Sheppard was brought in to do one thing, SHOOT! AND SCORE!! and he can't even do that or hasn't shown that yet? His value is at best a 10 million salary filler not a positive value asset, maybe a neutral currently??


Landale is an end of bench big who couldn't score or do much of anything in out last game against them, and a pick swap!............really??


Which team do people really think will be worse down the road, rockets already a top 2 team with an elite defense, and now adding KD, or us giving up KD, only having Booker and some young pieces when we couldn't even make the play in with our big three.

Now we're giving up the best player in the trade and losing not only a HOF elite level impact player, but almost triple double efficiency and the gravity he commanded to keep double and triple teams off of Booker most nights. Who exactly do we pick up that's really going to help replace that output/ impact??

So giving up a pick swap would obviously only return value back to Houston in getting a very likely better pick than whatever there's would be in that swap year. That swap then reduces the overall return value of that KD trade.


Why should Houston get a " best of pick outcome (swap) when we're the team giving up the best asset in the deal and obviously going to get worse in the immediate future by virtue of lost production/ impact?

Which of course would benefit Houston greatly with that swap? Did we learn nothing yet about the potential damage of pick swaps given our current outcome ??Surely upon further reflection you and those that agreed with you here can see this right?? The only real value we're actually getting here would be D Brooks as a defensive agitator, Smith Jr as a young floor spacing 3 & D forward and the 2 picks.

But a pick swap basically returns that value of one of those picks by virtue of us obviously being much worse than a top 2 playoff team adding KD in the coming years, so they'd get the much higher pick!

And Sheppard is so far just unrealized potential on very disappointing production and efficiency that may or MAY NOT ever pan out??? We HAVE TO nail every move from here on out to avoid a very long painful rebuild sooner rather than later!

This trade falls short of equitable value. Take out the pick swap altogether and switch Sheppard with Eason or Whitmore and then it's solid and equitable for sure by comparison.

Im not going to get sucked into a long, drawn out thing here. But I do have to say that you have the swap thing completely wrong to the point that I dont even understand how you would get there. Also think you're underselling Sheppard and the picks, but thats just subjective.

That's cool. It's actually very simple:

1- Reed Sheppard.
I've already provided his abysmal stats and efficiency. But if you need proof, here you go!
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sheppre01.html

Not really sure how anyone can justify a top 3 pick making 10 million and only putting up 4 points/ 1 rebound/ 1 assist and shooting 35% FG and only 33% from three is good value. And honestly it's kind of wild to claim I'm underselling him given those conditions. A top 5 pick only scoring single digit points on horrible efficiency. How exactly am I underselling him again?....LOL.

And what's your logic for me being completely wrong on the pick swap?? Who's the worse team currently? And who's more likely to still be the worse team in the next 3-4 years? A 2nd seed high playoff team with tons of assets and an exciting young core that would be entering their prime and with a great coach and front office?

Or a team with a dysfunctional front office, delusional owner, mismatched underachieving roster that can't even make the play in, has almost no assets or picks for the next half decade, and has maybe one legit star after this trade ( Booker) and that singular option will be 32 by 29 if not already off the team as we start our rebuild.

So which team do you HONESTLY believe will get the better value pick in that swap??

[Saberestar]

You're not gonna get Castle unless you give up Booker. Getting Ware and 2FRPs is a fine deal. Ware is a legit option at the 5. Rozier can play PG for us for a year while we draft PGOTF this year.

I'd take that deal and definitely hope to hire Quinn.

I am not saying about getting Castle, I just say that Ware is treated like he is a rookie as great as Castle in this trade proposal.

Look, I would consider this offer if those 2 FRPs were UNPROTECTED. Those picks (particularly one of them) don't have too much value IMO.

Duncan Robinson...OK, he can play 20 mpg for us. Solid role player.

Rozier? One of the worst players in the entire league this season. His contract is a big negative even as a expiring.

So all in all this is a very bad offer IMO and I wouldn't accept it.

It seems sometimes people view unprotected as a bigger deal than it should be. Now it is a big deal, but a team like Miami is unlikely to be one of the worst, and even if they were, and it was protected, it would likely role over to the next year with less protection. Few teams trade unprotected picks that willingly other than us.

I have seen plenty of unprotected picks going here and there on multiple occasions in the last few years. Every All-Star player gets some unprotected pick.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

Miami gets KD.

Phoenix gets Kel' El Ware/ Rozier/ Robinson/ GS 25' 1st (20th pick)/ MIA 30' 1st (top 5 protected).

That is a very good package. I'm not much of a fan of Robinson or Rozier, but they both can play, possibly have trade value, and to get Ware and two firsts would be awesome.

Rozier and Robinson's value would be that together they'd give us upwards of 44 million in expiring cap space to begin making key moves as we dip under the 2nd apron.

Now the picks are solid, but the centerpiece that swings this deal to a " yes" is Ware, because without him, the deal just isn't palatable.

[Sunsdeuce]

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This trade is very solid!! I'd take this and be fairly happy with it honestly. Not as good as the OKC trade with Hartenstein/ Dort/ Wallace/ 2 firsts. But still very solid value for KD.

The trade:

Miami gets KD.

Phoenix gets Kel' El Ware/ Rozier/ Robinson/ GS 25' 1st (20th pick)/ MIA 30' 1st (top 5 protected).

That is a very good package. I'm not much of a fan of Robinson or Rozier, but they both can play, possibly have trade value, and to get Ware and two firsts would be awesome.

Man, we really setting our bar low for what we can get in return for KD. Wild.

[Slim Charless]

I am not saying about getting Castle, I just say that Ware is treated like he is a rookie as great as Castle in this trade proposal.

Look, I would consider this offer if those 2 FRPs were UNPROTECTED. Those picks (particularly one of them) don't have too much value IMO.

Duncan Robinson...OK, he can play 20 mpg for us. Solid role player.

Rozier? One of the worst players in the entire league this season. His contract is a big negative even as a expiring.

So all in all this is a very bad offer IMO and I wouldn't accept it.

It seems sometimes people view unprotected as a bigger deal than it should be. Now it is a big deal, but a team like Miami is unlikely to be one of the worst, and even if they were, and it was protected, it would likely role over to the next year with less protection. Few teams trade unprotected picks that willingly other than us.

I have seen plenty of unprotected picks going here and there on multiple occasions in the last few years. Every All-Star player gets some unprotected pick.

The Knicks crazy trade for Mikal comes to mind.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Ok fellas. I cracked it. I know how we get out of this:

We trade our roster to Milwaukee. Milwaukee trades its roster to new Orleans. New Orleans sends its roster to Phoenix.

Thoughts?