Suns Offseason Thread 4: Where's Terrence Williams?

[thamadkant]

Gasol's defense is atrocious. I don't think anything else needs to be said about him.

And Kieff has stellar defense? That's why we brought in Chandler.

Yes, Kieff is a solid defender. Leaps and bounds above Gasol.

Edit: Just so i don't have to look into advanced stats right now, here's an article that explains just how important Markieff is for Suns defense. http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2015/03/06/pay-attention-to-markieff-morris/

Gasol may not move well laterally defensively but he contests shots well.

I noticed you posted Kieffs on and off defensive impact. That doesn't say much about him being a good defender.

If Steve Nash and I played power forward for the Suns and backed Nash up. The suns defense would be 130 when he is on and 150 when I'm on. Shows suns are significantly better defensively when he is on but it doesn't mean he is a good defender.

Kieff is NOT a good defender but he isn't Boozer bad. He moves well laterally but won't be stopping anyone good at post scoring.

[SarcasticSun]

The fact that we are even discussing trading Kieff for Gasol is embarrassing to me. Why? To make the playoffs once? Gasol didn't deserve to be an all star last season , he's getting by on name recognition. His defense is terrible. HE'S 35. Why why why why why???? I suppose you guys also supported the dragic and a 1st for Aaron Brooks trade because this would be our worst trade since that deal. Remember when the lakers traded for Nash? Or the nets trade for Pierce and garnett? That's what happens when you trade for these old FORMER all stars! You end up in a position like the nets or the lakers are in right now

[plonden]

Markieff has a top 2 mid-range game.

Putting aside the Pau versus Markieff debate, you've said this a couple of times now. Who, in your opinion, has the top mid-range game? Just curious. Also, some mid-range shots and especially long-twos are the least efficient shots in the NBA. So, while it's nice to have a top-tier skill, I'd rather have a player who shoots more valuable shots--either at the rim or behind the three-point line. Trevor Ariza is a pretty good example of a fairly limited player who maximizes his scoring by only taking threes or layups/dunks.

Courtesy of Suns91fan in a previous post.

[url]http://bkref.com/tiny/2vfzH
[/url]


It's not my opinion. It's stats. Chris Paul is the only guy shooting the mid-range J better. Not sure why the URL code is looking like that.

Not so cut and dry. The three point line is 22 feet out in the corners and 23.75 feet above the top of the key. So if you arbitrarily call midrange to be 10-16 feet and set the number of attempts at 200 (which limits the field to only 9 players), then Markieff is second in the league. But, if you change the numbers a bit to capture the full midrange game, it changes the outcome. Here's a list from 10-24 feet with three pointers excluded it looks a little bit different. Markieff comes at a very respectable 14th, behind guys like JJ Redick, Chris Paul, Al Horford, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh, and David West, all of whom have a better midrange game than Markieff. Pairing these stats with the eye test, and it looks much more realistic. And, somehow, Beno Udrih apparently has a killer midrange game, leading the pack with a .523 FG% with CP3 a distant second at .504 FG%.

[MrMiyagi]

Putting aside the Pau versus Markieff debate, you've said this a couple of times now. Who, in your opinion, has the top mid-range game? Just curious. Also, some mid-range shots and especially long-twos are the least efficient shots in the NBA. So, while it's nice to have a top-tier skill, I'd rather have a player who shoots more valuable shots--either at the rim or behind the three-point line. Trevor Ariza is a pretty good example of a fairly limited player who maximizes his scoring by only taking threes or layups/dunks.

Courtesy of Suns91fan in a previous post.

[url]http://bkref.com/tiny/2vfzH
[/url]


It's not my opinion. It's stats. Chris Paul is the only guy shooting the mid-range J better. Not sure why the URL code is looking like that.

Not so cut and dry. The three point line is 22 feet out in the corners and 23.75 feet above the top of the key. So if you arbitrarily call midrange to be 10-16 feet and set the number of attempts at 200 (which limits the field to only 9 players), then Markieff is second in the league. But, if you change the numbers a bit to capture the full midrange game, it changes the outcome. Here's a list from 10-24 feet with three pointers excluded it looks a little bit different. Markieff comes at a very respectable 14th, behind guys like JJ Redick, Chris Paul, Al Horford, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh, and David West, all of whom have a better midrange game than Markieff. Pairing these stats with the eye test, and it looks much more realistic. And, somehow, Beno Udrih apparently has a killer midrange game, leading the pack with a .523 FG% with CP3 a distant second at .504 FG%.

Extending the range to 24 feet and only 2-pt field goals gets you a lot of foot on the line 3-point attempts that should be classified as long-range, not mid-range. Either way, Kieff is one of the best big shooters from the mid-range.

[Saberestar]

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

Okay, but that's not what I'm asking. My point was do you think Gasol will be better beyond the next 2 years--not during the next 2 years. I think Gasol will be better than Kieff next year and maybe the year after. I just don't think we'll be legitimate contenders during that time (I think our window starts 3 years from now). Given that, I want the guy who will be better 3, 4, and 5 years down the line. Gasol cannot feasibly be playing at an all-star level at ages 38-40. I think Kieff at 28-30 is better than Gasol at 38-40.

In the NBA 3 years is a TON of years and rosters change in that period a ĺot. Look our team, for example, or other teams (it's the same result) and think about how many players they have on their roster more than three consecutive years? Very few of them.

If we were speaking about a youngster like Booker or Warren I would agree with you. They can be way better in 3 years.
If we were speaking about an All-Star or borderline All Star player I would agree with you. You don't trade great players.

But role players and average starters (like Markieff ) go in and out of teams until you have a really good playoff team or a contender and then you can make a run for a championship for a few years.

[gaspar]

Crazy that you guys would rather have a 15/6/.5 guy over an all-star starter who got 18.5/12/2. Kieff shot .465% and Gasol shot almost 50%. I'd really want our starting PF to shoot at least .485%. Gasol actually can shoot the corner three with ease IMO.
Talking about Pau's age, didn't our GM just say something about lengthy 7 footers who play well into their mid thirties? Duncan & Dirk were his examples, I don't see why Pau would suddenly drop off either.

I know it's not gonna happen but Pau is definitely the better player, and will continue to be for the next two years at least. I'm hoping Kieff will turn the corner this upcoming season and get 17/8 while shooting better than 48%, but I don't think he'll ever, in his entire career average 18.5/12/2 for one season. Here's hoping I'm wrong and Kieff will become a Aldridge/Sheed lite someday (while playing for the Suns of course).

Gasol's defense is atrocious. I don't think anything else needs to be said about him.

Seriously, I don't think some people realize just how BAD Pau is defensively. Gasol can't move laterally and he doesn't hedge on the pick and roll (just google: "Pau Gasol pick and roll defense"), which makes him useless defensively as a power forward. Last season in Chicago even when he was on the court with Noah, it was Joakim who defended opposing team's power forwards with Pau standing under the basket. If you trade for Pau, it would force Chandler and Len to defend perimeter oriented bigs, which is a recipe for a disaster.

Last year the Suns had one of the better defenses in the league when Markieff and Len were on the court together. And it wasn't all Len doing the dirty work, because statistically Alex was terrible defensively (10.3 pts/100 poss worse) with Keef on the bench (similar situation with Bledsoe (5.9 pts/100 poss worse) and Tucker (2.9 pts/100 poss worse)). Keef doesn't protect the rim that well but he can defend the pick and roll, he contests the shots on the perimeter and can switch on smaller and bigger players. And his low post defense isn't as bad as people make it to be.

Keef/Len Defensive Rating compared to other team's frontcourts:

Bogut/Green 95.1
Gortat/Nene 95.7
Howard/Motiejunas 95.8
Duncan/Splitter 96.0
Gobert/Favors 96.2
Len/Keef 98.4
Mozgov/Love 100.0
Noah/Pau 100.4
Davis/Asik 100.5
Hibbert/West 101.0
Adams/Ibaka 101.1
Gasol/Z-Bo 101.5
Jordan/Griffin 102.8
Aldridge/Lopez 103.1
Horford/Millsap 103.2
Val/Amir 105.0
Chandler/Dirk 105.7

[Mulhollanddrive]

That's true.

In the years 2014, 2010, 2006, 2002, 1998.

No player that wasn't an All-Star made the next 4 year interval. Only Nash, Marion, Stoudamire, Chapman (from memory).

So for 2018, we're already down to 5 - Morris, Tucker, Bledsoe, Goodwin, Len.

[lilfishi22]

You KeifKeepers conveniently ignore his past behavior and have packed all his problems into his brother's bags.

To assume Keif is the good twin and his bad behavior was MarCusser's doing is homery optimism. And to think he does not share some of the same, if not all of the same attitudes towards Phoenix sidesteps their two-for-one-headed history.

Go ahead and defend him, but at least acknowledge the valid chance that HE might not want to play here. There is more circumstantial evidence to lead to that conclusion than what you guys are trumpeting. Yes, circumstantial, but isn't there an argument that these two Bone-Headed Clone-Headed Bros think and act alike ? They could be the basis for a creepy Psych paper.

Do you not think Keif supported every word CusMo said ? He wasn't there fanning the flame was he ? Or was he ? It has already been verified he was angry and in Detroit..... BTW, I'd be in Detroit too over the swelter that is Phnx...

The reckoning comes as camp draws near. Patch up or pack up Keif.

If he doesn't want to play here, it's in everyone's best interest to move him. McD knows this. If that is the case, then Kief better STFU and let McD do his job.

[bwgood77]

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

He might be better than Markieff, but if you want to seriously compete 3-4 years from now when most of our players are in their prime, why trade for him? He likely won't be traded anyway, but what is your goal? Just to make the playoffs? It is amazing to me how many people have the Sarver mentality.

If you think Kieff is a starting caliber piece of our future core 3-4 years down the road you are also buying into the Sarver mentality. He's best served as a temporary stopgap until an opportunity presents itself and we sell high and get whatever is available in return. Dealing him now when his value is rock bottom wouldn't even set us back much in the longterm and if push comes to shove and he demands out so be it. In fact the only reason the FO would prefer to retain him is to remain in the hunt because our frontcourt would be in shambles without his scoring contribution and we have no better alternative as of now. But I agree Gasol is not the asnwer for a team like us and nothing short of a bonafide superstar in his prime could singlehandedly elevate this sorry bunch into contention

I'm all for finding a better PF as I think Markieff would be best as a sixth man but If I were to trade him, I would trade him for someone who makes sense for this team and could be part of our future long term. In a package for a star quality player or a quality stretch four, but not an aging vet or trading him just to get rid of him. As you said, PF is the position that is the shakiest for us right now. Hopefully Mirza turns into a stud and it won't matter as much, but that's probably wishful thinking.

[NavLDO]

And do you believe that will hold for beyond this season and next? And do you believe we win a title with Gasol this season or next? Because the "2 or 3 more years" statement is the key above. That's why we would be morons to give up any future asset for a 35 year old.

Probably I am wrong, but I think that Pau Gasol is gonna be an overall better player than Markieff the next two years. Just my opinion...if Markieff is in Phoenix next year I really want him to be better than Gasol, but I am not sure about it.

He might be better than Markieff, but if you want to seriously compete 3-4 years from now when most of our players are in their prime, why trade for him? He likely won't be traded anyway, but what is your goal? Just to make the playoffs? It is amazing to me how many people have the Sarver mentality.

True. Because when Gasol start to lose his ability, it's likely going to go fast. He's averaged just 63 games per season over the last 4 seasons--the odds are against Gasol being anything more than a role player/vet locker room leader 3 years from now. I'm not comparing Kieff to Gasol, but if we are going to trade Kieff, please, let's trade for a younger guy--one that's likely to be playing at a starter-level in 3 years.

Some will argue 'well, we just signed Chandler'--true, but we didn't give any assets away for Chandler--that's the difference.

[Cutter]

..........I trust McDuh......

Wait. What did I just read?

[plonden]

Extending the range to 24 feet and only 2-pt field goals gets you a lot of foot on the line 3-point attempts that should be classified as long-range, not mid-range. Either way, Kieff is one of the best big shooters from the mid-range.

That's a fair point. But the overall point still stands. Statistics can be manipulated. That's why you need to cross-check the analytics with your personal observations and experience. Markieff has a very good midrange game. But there is no way he has the second best midrange game in the NBA. Any such list that doesn't have Dirk Nowitzki at or near the top of the list, in my mind, is flawed.

[plonden]

Here is a Basketball Insiders piece that discusses the Suns. Talking about Tyson Chandler, leadership, and the locker room:

“From what I’ve heard about him it seems like he’s a great guy, especially in the locker room,” Goodwin said. “From what I’ve seen on the court, he talks a lot. He’s very active and he’s very energetic. I think that’s something that we missed out on last year. I’m happy to have him with us and I know he’s going to be a great acquisition for us.

“I think we’re going to be led better than we were last year because we have a lot more veteran guys. I think that’s going to be the biggest thing. … We’re going to be a lot more playing for each other instead of playing for one person. The teams that are winning, they always play for each other, not for themselves. I feel like if we play for each other we’re going to have a great chance of making [the playoffs].”

[aIvin adams]

everytime i stop into this thread the conversation around markieff gets weirder and weirder.

pau gasol... lol.

[NTB]

http://valleyofthesuns.com/2015/07/26/suns-profile-jon-leuer-background-beale-street-bears/

Nice article about Leuer.

Tells about his strengths and weaknesses.

[drewsprocket]

Kieff's has a mini Sheed Wallace game. He can develop his tools to learn how to win better. Hopefully Tyson can get through to him. I think you might have to get rid of Tucker too...as Tuck has a bit of self destruct mode in him as well. We'll see.
Kieff is still the starting PF and has to realize he has only a supporting roster around him and not other team can offer him the starting position with nearly as many touches as he wants.

[Sunsdeuce]

Kieff's has a mini Sheed Wallace game. He can develop his tools to learn how to win better. Hopefully Tyson can get through to him. I think you might have to get rid of Tucker too...as Tuck has a bit of self destruct mode in him as well. We'll see.
Kieff is still the starting PF and has to realize he has only a supporting roster around him and not other team can offer him the starting position with nearly as many touches as he wants.

That's a bad comparison. Rasheed was leaps and bounds better rebounder and defender. Also stats wise beg to differ on that comparison. What's so frustrating with markeiff is he is a below average rebounder. I mean Amare was a better rebounder and Amare was a below average rebounder. Best comparison is Rodney Rodgers.

[gaspar]

Kieff's has a mini Sheed Wallace game. He can develop his tools to learn how to win better. Hopefully Tyson can get through to him. I think you might have to get rid of Tucker too...as Tuck has a bit of self destruct mode in him as well. We'll see.
Kieff is still the starting PF and has to realize he has only a supporting roster around him and not other team can offer him the starting position with nearly as many touches as he wants.

That's a bad comparison. Rasheed was leaps and bounds better rebounder and defender. Also stats wise beg to differ on that comparison. What's so frustrating with markeiff is he is a below average rebounder. I mean Amare was a better rebounder and Amare was a below average rebounder. Best comparison is Rodney Rodgers.

Rebounds per 36 minutes (first 4 seasons of their careers):

Keef 7.7
Sheed 6.5

[Sunsdeuce]

Kieff's has a mini Sheed Wallace game. He can develop his tools to learn how to win better. Hopefully Tyson can get through to him. I think you might have to get rid of Tucker too...as Tuck has a bit of self destruct mode in him as well. We'll see.
Kieff is still the starting PF and has to realize he has only a supporting roster around him and not other team can offer him the starting position with nearly as many touches as he wants.

That's a bad comparison. Rasheed was leaps and bounds better rebounder and defender. Also stats wise beg to differ on that comparison. What's so frustrating with markeiff is he is a below average rebounder. I mean Amare was a better rebounder and Amare was a below average rebounder. Best comparison is Rodney Rodgers.

Rebounds per 36 minutes (first 4 seasons of their careers):

Keef 7.7
Sheed 6.5

Your right their averages were right now par. But I actually watched Rasheed play. He was a better rebounder. Still doesn't change the fact markeiff sucks at rebounding.

[gaspar]

That's a bad comparison. Rasheed was leaps and bounds better rebounder and defender. Also stats wise beg to differ on that comparison. What's so frustrating with markeiff is he is a below average rebounder. I mean Amare was a better rebounder and Amare was a below average rebounder. Best comparison is Rodney Rodgers.

Rebounds per 36 minutes (first 4 seasons of their careers):

Keef 7.7
Sheed 6.5

Your right their averages were right now par. But I actually watched Rasheed play. He was a better rebounder. Still doesn't change the fact markeiff sucks at rebounding.

This is getting ridiculous. First Mirotic who shoots .316 from three is "automatic", while Markieff at .318 is a bad three point shooter, and now Rasheed is "leaps and bounds better rebounder" than Keef.

Clearly it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about Markieff Morris on this forum.