Deandre Ayton news and discussion

[Bogyo]

"Playing alongside two All-Star ball-handlers, each of whom manipulate defenses with pace, craft and scoring, Ayton provides a mammoth lob threat. He’s timing his rolls properly, floats off the ground seamlessly and corrals passes with his 7-foot-6 wingspan and a wide catch radius. Both Paul and Book can just toss the ball near his zip code and quite often, Ayton delivers."

" Upon this blossoming, he’s embracing contact, acting promptly with the ball in his hands and stepping through post touches rather than stepping back."

hmmmm...

The rest we can agree on - although I still feel like his agent paid for this article so he can put it on the table come contract negotiation time

Jackson Frank puts out lots of stuff across the NBA. I doubt an agent pays him.

He's a great lob threat if he gets high passes. Bridges great at it...Paul really good at it and Book on and off. As I've said, throw it high and he almost always puts it in.

I thought this was the biggest no brainer part of the article. Did you see his % this year in the spoiler or even watch the video?

One better - I've seen the games. The agent stuff was sarcastic obviously - with the smiley. Well I guess not obviously then.
I just felt that if I only read this article and the videos in it, then Ayton is young Shaq. While he has made big strides this year, he is not that. If I read an article about Book which made him out to be MJ or Kobe I'd have the same reaction. I get it, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the unwarranted fluff.

[sunsbg]

"Playing alongside two All-Star ball-handlers, each of whom manipulate defenses with pace, craft and scoring, Ayton provides a mammoth lob threat. He’s timing his rolls properly, floats off the ground seamlessly and corrals passes with his 7-foot-6 wingspan and a wide catch radius. Both Paul and Book can just toss the ball near his zip code and quite often, Ayton delivers."

" Upon this blossoming, he’s embracing contact, acting promptly with the ball in his hands and stepping through post touches rather than stepping back."

hmmmm...

The rest we can agree on - although I still feel like his agent paid for this article so he can put it on the table come contract negotiation time

Jackson Frank puts out lots of stuff across the NBA. I doubt an agent pays him.

He's a great lob threat if he gets high passes. Bridges great at it...Paul really good at it and Book on and off. As I've said, throw it high and he almost always puts it in.

I thought this was the biggest no brainer part of the article. Did you see his % this year in the spoiler or even watch the video?

One better - I've seen the games. The agent stuff was sarcastic obviously - with the smiley. Well I guess not obviously then.
I just felt that if I only read this article and the videos in it, then Ayton is young Shaq. While he has made big strides this year, he is not that. If I read an article about Book which made him out to be MJ or Kobe I'd have the same reaction. I get it, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the unwarranted fluff.

Yeah, it was not so obvious by coming from you.

[Biff]

"Playing alongside two All-Star ball-handlers, each of whom manipulate defenses with pace, craft and scoring, Ayton provides a mammoth lob threat. He’s timing his rolls properly, floats off the ground seamlessly and corrals passes with his 7-foot-6 wingspan and a wide catch radius. Both Paul and Book can just toss the ball near his zip code and quite often, Ayton delivers."

" Upon this blossoming, he’s embracing contact, acting promptly with the ball in his hands and stepping through post touches rather than stepping back."

hmmmm...

The rest we can agree on - although I still feel like his agent paid for this article so he can put it on the table come contract negotiation time

Jackson Frank puts out lots of stuff across the NBA. I doubt an agent pays him.

He's a great lob threat if he gets high passes. Bridges great at it...Paul really good at it and Book on and off. As I've said, throw it high and he almost always puts it in.

I thought this was the biggest no brainer part of the article. Did you see his % this year in the spoiler or even watch the video?

One better - I've seen the games. The agent stuff was sarcastic obviously - with the smiley. Well I guess not obviously then.
I just felt that if I only read this article and the videos in it, then Ayton is young Shaq. While he has made big strides this year, he is not that. If I read an article about Book which made him out to be MJ or Kobe I'd have the same reaction. I get it, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the unwarranted fluff.

I agree, I don't like the fluff either. I think the biggest difference is Monty is learning how to use him properly. His handle sucks, so you don't really want him driving and his post game is still a major work in progress. While he might be embracing contact via rolls/lobs, he still seems to avoid it in the post. I've seen too many hook shots of his after he pivots AWAY from the basket, rather into it and into his man, looking for a foul. He's not Kareem and I would prefer he takes it right at his man, rather than trying for a hook shot.

But they're finally putting him into positions where he can maximize his efficiency. I've seen fewer rushed mid-range shots this year, so I am happy they have worked on checking that habit. He's a good mid-range shooter but it's a shot you can get any time and and only moderately efficient, better to work for a higher efficiency shot.

[bwgood77]

Jackson Frank puts out lots of stuff across the NBA. I doubt an agent pays him.

He's a great lob threat if he gets high passes. Bridges great at it...Paul really good at it and Book on and off. As I've said, throw it high and he almost always puts it in.

I thought this was the biggest no brainer part of the article. Did you see his % this year in the spoiler or even watch the video?

One better - I've seen the games. The agent stuff was sarcastic obviously - with the smiley. Well I guess not obviously then.
I just felt that if I only read this article and the videos in it, then Ayton is young Shaq. While he has made big strides this year, he is not that. If I read an article about Book which made him out to be MJ or Kobe I'd have the same reaction. I get it, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the unwarranted fluff.

I agree, I don't like the fluff either. I think the biggest difference is Monty is learning how to use him properly. His handle sucks, so you don't really want him driving and his post game is still a major work in progress. While he might be embracing contact via rolls/lobs, he still seems to avoid it in the post. I've seen too many hook shots of his after he pivots AWAY from the basket, rather into it and into his man, looking for a foul. He's not Kareem and I would prefer he takes it right at his man, rather than trying for a hook shot.

But they're finally putting him into positions where he can maximize his efficiency. I've seen fewer rushed mid-range shots this year, so I am happy they have worked on checking that habit. He's a good mid-range shooter but it's a shot you can get any time and and only moderately efficient, better to work for a higher efficiency shot.

Yeah, he will never be Shaq or Kareem and I am not sure where those and the Robinson comparisons came from. He sucked in college and as a rookie...at least on the defensive side.

Post play is not the way to go these days..at least not often.

Anyway, they should just utilize him more after seeing him be the most efficient guy in the paint in April....instead of get him like 4 shots a game 2 out of the last 3. I know many blame him but you gotta get him good opportunities and passes when open...when you do he goes like 8-11 with 17 points instead of 3-4 for 7 points or whatever.

There are things he can work on offensively but I think he's solid as a roll man and has become good at putting it on the floor and driving when he does it, and his fadeaway and hook shot are usually solid.

But yeah, not Kareem and Shaq, so not sure who came up with that fluff other than because of physique or a few highlights from college.

[Biff]

One better - I've seen the games. The agent stuff was sarcastic obviously - with the smiley. Well I guess not obviously then.
I just felt that if I only read this article and the videos in it, then Ayton is young Shaq. While he has made big strides this year, he is not that. If I read an article about Book which made him out to be MJ or Kobe I'd have the same reaction. I get it, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the unwarranted fluff.

I agree, I don't like the fluff either. I think the biggest difference is Monty is learning how to use him properly. His handle sucks, so you don't really want him driving and his post game is still a major work in progress. While he might be embracing contact via rolls/lobs, he still seems to avoid it in the post. I've seen too many hook shots of his after he pivots AWAY from the basket, rather into it and into his man, looking for a foul. He's not Kareem and I would prefer he takes it right at his man, rather than trying for a hook shot.

But they're finally putting him into positions where he can maximize his efficiency. I've seen fewer rushed mid-range shots this year, so I am happy they have worked on checking that habit. He's a good mid-range shooter but it's a shot you can get any time and and only moderately efficient, better to work for a higher efficiency shot.

Yeah, he will never be Shaq or Kareem and I am not sure where those and the Robinson comparisons came from. He sucked in college and as a rookie...at least on the defensive side.

Post play is not the way to go these days..at least not often.

Anyway, they should just utilize him more after seeing him be the most efficient guy in the paint in April....instead of get him like 4 shots a game 2 out of the last 3. I know many blame him but you gotta get him good opportunities and passes when open...when you do he goes like 8-11 with 17 points instead of 3-4 for 7 points or whatever.

There are things he can work on offensively but I think he's solid as a roll man and has become good at putting it on the floor and driving when he does it, and his fadeaway and hook shot are usually solid.

But yeah, not Kareem and Shaq, so not sure who came up with that fluff other than because of physique or a few highlights from college.

I still would like to see him work on finishing/going up strong. He has been better with this of late but there are still many times where he should slam it home but instead goes up soft and is rejected or lays it short. This often seems to be an issue in crunch time as well. But the last Jazz game he didn't look nearly as intimidated by Gobert so it seems his confidence is growing a bit, so I'm hopeful we'll see less of that going forward.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

One better - I've seen the games. The agent stuff was sarcastic obviously - with the smiley. Well I guess not obviously then.
I just felt that if I only read this article and the videos in it, then Ayton is young Shaq. While he has made big strides this year, he is not that. If I read an article about Book which made him out to be MJ or Kobe I'd have the same reaction. I get it, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the unwarranted fluff.

I agree, I don't like the fluff either. I think the biggest difference is Monty is learning how to use him properly. His handle sucks, so you don't really want him driving and his post game is still a major work in progress. While he might be embracing contact via rolls/lobs, he still seems to avoid it in the post. I've seen too many hook shots of his after he pivots AWAY from the basket, rather into it and into his man, looking for a foul. He's not Kareem and I would prefer he takes it right at his man, rather than trying for a hook shot.

But they're finally putting him into positions where he can maximize his efficiency. I've seen fewer rushed mid-range shots this year, so I am happy they have worked on checking that habit. He's a good mid-range shooter but it's a shot you can get any time and and only moderately efficient, better to work for a higher efficiency shot.

Yeah, he will never be Shaq or Kareem and I am not sure where those and the Robinson comparisons came from. He sucked in college and as a rookie...at least on the defensive side.

Post play is not the way to go these days..at least not often.

Anyway, they should just utilize him more after seeing him be the most efficient guy in the paint in April....instead of get him like 4 shots a game 2 out of the last 3. I know many blame him but you gotta get him good opportunities and passes when open...when you do he goes like 8-11 with 17 points instead of 3-4 for 7 points or whatever.

There are things he can work on offensively but I think he's solid as a roll man and has become good at putting it on the floor and driving when he does it, and his fadeaway and hook shot are usually solid.

But yeah, not Kareem and Shaq, so not sure who came up with that fluff other than because of physique or a few highlights from college.

Problem is, Kareem and Shaq have career TS% of 59% and 58% respectively. That's about as good as you could hope for with an "unstoppable" post player. In today's game that's good enough to be between the 55th and 70th players ranking by TS%. There are five teams this year with higher TS% - and we're one of them. Deandre's shooting close to 65% TS% but gets about half the points of those two... Think if we gave him twice the attempts, he'd be down at 59%?

I'm not saying those were good comps for DA, but the game is just so different now that it's really hard to compare. I think Deandre would have been a go-to post player in the 90s. And I'm sure Shaq would change the whole league if he joined it today - because you just can't put Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green on Shaq. If Deandre fouled Shaq twice, we wouldn't be able to put Frank or Dario out there. We would legit have to go out and sign a big stiff just to put something in the man's way.

I wish Deandre had the kind of power and energy to punish defenses similarly when they go small. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he'll add the 3. Who knows. Bigs take longer to develop.

[Biff]

I agree, I don't like the fluff either. I think the biggest difference is Monty is learning how to use him properly. His handle sucks, so you don't really want him driving and his post game is still a major work in progress. While he might be embracing contact via rolls/lobs, he still seems to avoid it in the post. I've seen too many hook shots of his after he pivots AWAY from the basket, rather into it and into his man, looking for a foul. He's not Kareem and I would prefer he takes it right at his man, rather than trying for a hook shot.

But they're finally putting him into positions where he can maximize his efficiency. I've seen fewer rushed mid-range shots this year, so I am happy they have worked on checking that habit. He's a good mid-range shooter but it's a shot you can get any time and and only moderately efficient, better to work for a higher efficiency shot.

Yeah, he will never be Shaq or Kareem and I am not sure where those and the Robinson comparisons came from. He sucked in college and as a rookie...at least on the defensive side.

Post play is not the way to go these days..at least not often.

Anyway, they should just utilize him more after seeing him be the most efficient guy in the paint in April....instead of get him like 4 shots a game 2 out of the last 3. I know many blame him but you gotta get him good opportunities and passes when open...when you do he goes like 8-11 with 17 points instead of 3-4 for 7 points or whatever.

There are things he can work on offensively but I think he's solid as a roll man and has become good at putting it on the floor and driving when he does it, and his fadeaway and hook shot are usually solid.

But yeah, not Kareem and Shaq, so not sure who came up with that fluff other than because of physique or a few highlights from college.

Problem is, Kareem and Shaq have career TS% of 59% and 58% respectively. That's about as good as you could hope for with an "unstoppable" post player. In today's game that's good enough to be between the 55th and 70th players ranking by TS%. There are five teams this year with higher TS% - and we're one of them. Deandre's shooting close to 65% TS% but gets about half the points of those two... Think if we gave him twice the attempts, he'd be down at 59%?

I'm not saying those were good comps for DA, but the game is just so different now that it's really hard to compare. I think Deandre would have been a go-to post player in the 90s. And I'm sure Shaq would change the whole league if he joined it today - because you just can't put Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green on Shaq. If Deandre fouled Shaq twice, we wouldn't be able to put Frank or Dario out there. We would legit have to go out and sign a big stiff just to put something in the man's way.

I wish Deandre had the kind of power and energy to punish defenses similarly when they go small. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he'll add the 3. Who knows. Bigs take longer to develop.

I don't think DA would have a 58 or 59% TS% on that kind of volume in the post. He was at 56.8% last year on 15 attempts. He has a 65% TS% because Monty is putting him into positions where can score easily. DA doesn't have a mean enough streak to be a go-to scorer. If he was on a team that tried to get him to score a lot, he'd be taking a lot more mid-rangers and probably would be around 55% TS%. He doesn't get to the line enough or shoot the 3 well enough to have a TS% much higher than that in a highish volume situation.

[bwgood77]

I agree, I don't like the fluff either. I think the biggest difference is Monty is learning how to use him properly. His handle sucks, so you don't really want him driving and his post game is still a major work in progress. While he might be embracing contact via rolls/lobs, he still seems to avoid it in the post. I've seen too many hook shots of his after he pivots AWAY from the basket, rather into it and into his man, looking for a foul. He's not Kareem and I would prefer he takes it right at his man, rather than trying for a hook shot.

But they're finally putting him into positions where he can maximize his efficiency. I've seen fewer rushed mid-range shots this year, so I am happy they have worked on checking that habit. He's a good mid-range shooter but it's a shot you can get any time and and only moderately efficient, better to work for a higher efficiency shot.

Yeah, he will never be Shaq or Kareem and I am not sure where those and the Robinson comparisons came from. He sucked in college and as a rookie...at least on the defensive side.

Post play is not the way to go these days..at least not often.

Anyway, they should just utilize him more after seeing him be the most efficient guy in the paint in April....instead of get him like 4 shots a game 2 out of the last 3. I know many blame him but you gotta get him good opportunities and passes when open...when you do he goes like 8-11 with 17 points instead of 3-4 for 7 points or whatever.

There are things he can work on offensively but I think he's solid as a roll man and has become good at putting it on the floor and driving when he does it, and his fadeaway and hook shot are usually solid.

But yeah, not Kareem and Shaq, so not sure who came up with that fluff other than because of physique or a few highlights from college.

I still would like to see him work on finishing/going up strong. He has been better with this of late but there are still many times where he should slam it home but instead goes up soft and is rejected or lays it short. This often seems to be an issue in crunch time as well. But the last Jazz game he didn't look nearly as intimidated by Gobert so it seems his confidence is growing a bit, so I'm hopeful we'll see less of that going forward.

Yeah, he could go up strong more but he is going up strong and finishing/dunking a lot more than early in the season. Earlier he was in the low teens or around 20th in dunks (even below Oubre, who was actually the only wing like in the top 15) and now he had moved up to like 10th, which really means in the last couple of months he is probably more like 5th-8th in dunks since he has moved up to 10th for the entire season. And he doesn't get that many shots.

Most of the other bigs ahead of him have less overall offensive game.

[bwgood77]

Yeah, he will never be Shaq or Kareem and I am not sure where those and the Robinson comparisons came from. He sucked in college and as a rookie...at least on the defensive side.

Post play is not the way to go these days..at least not often.

Anyway, they should just utilize him more after seeing him be the most efficient guy in the paint in April....instead of get him like 4 shots a game 2 out of the last 3. I know many blame him but you gotta get him good opportunities and passes when open...when you do he goes like 8-11 with 17 points instead of 3-4 for 7 points or whatever.

There are things he can work on offensively but I think he's solid as a roll man and has become good at putting it on the floor and driving when he does it, and his fadeaway and hook shot are usually solid.

But yeah, not Kareem and Shaq, so not sure who came up with that fluff other than because of physique or a few highlights from college.

Problem is, Kareem and Shaq have career TS% of 59% and 58% respectively. That's about as good as you could hope for with an "unstoppable" post player. In today's game that's good enough to be between the 55th and 70th players ranking by TS%. There are five teams this year with higher TS% - and we're one of them. Deandre's shooting close to 65% TS% but gets about half the points of those two... Think if we gave him twice the attempts, he'd be down at 59%?

I'm not saying those were good comps for DA, but the game is just so different now that it's really hard to compare. I think Deandre would have been a go-to post player in the 90s. And I'm sure Shaq would change the whole league if he joined it today - because you just can't put Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green on Shaq. If Deandre fouled Shaq twice, we wouldn't be able to put Frank or Dario out there. We would legit have to go out and sign a big stiff just to put something in the man's way.

I wish Deandre had the kind of power and energy to punish defenses similarly when they go small. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he'll add the 3. Who knows. Bigs take longer to develop.

I don't think DA would have a 58 or 59% TS% on that kind of volume in the post. He was at 56.8% last year on 15 attempts. He has a 65% TS% because Monty is putting him into positions where can score easily. DA doesn't have a mean enough streak to be a go-to scorer. If he was on a team that tried to get him to score a lot, he'd be taking a lot more mid-rangers and probably would be around 55% TS%. He doesn't get to the line enough or shoot the 3 well enough to have a TS% much higher than that in a highish volume situation.

I haven't looked, but I assume I'mNotMcD is saying they put up 58-59% TS% overall, not just in post play. They surely got plenty of easy dunks too, particularly Shaq. He got a lot more than Ayton.

I can't look at Kareem's dunks, but I can go back and compare 20 years ago to today. What is interesting is the group from 20 years ago is in more games..at least 10 more games.

I know this goes against the argument that Shaq got more points than Ayton from post play since the argument was that Ayton gets easy baskets, but I think if you asked most people who dunked a higher % of their shots between Shaq and Ayton, most would say Shaq by far. Intersting enough, they both dunked about 16% of their shots according to this...of course he scored more which means he likely did more of everything to score, except shoot 3s.

Another interesting thing is that 16% of baskets from dunks from Shaq was by far the most back then in that list..but for Ayton, it's the least...most of those guys in today's list have a HUGE % of pts from dunks, and it's simply because of a change of the game due to the mathematicians....saying post play is worthless and you have to shoot 3s or get easy dunks. I'm sure we all remember Dan D'Antoni's long video about how those are the least efficient points today and the way to lose.

[Biff]

Problem is, Kareem and Shaq have career TS% of 59% and 58% respectively. That's about as good as you could hope for with an "unstoppable" post player. In today's game that's good enough to be between the 55th and 70th players ranking by TS%. There are five teams this year with higher TS% - and we're one of them. Deandre's shooting close to 65% TS% but gets about half the points of those two... Think if we gave him twice the attempts, he'd be down at 59%?

I'm not saying those were good comps for DA, but the game is just so different now that it's really hard to compare. I think Deandre would have been a go-to post player in the 90s. And I'm sure Shaq would change the whole league if he joined it today - because you just can't put Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green on Shaq. If Deandre fouled Shaq twice, we wouldn't be able to put Frank or Dario out there. We would legit have to go out and sign a big stiff just to put something in the man's way.

I wish Deandre had the kind of power and energy to punish defenses similarly when they go small. Maybe he'll get there. Maybe he'll add the 3. Who knows. Bigs take longer to develop.

I don't think DA would have a 58 or 59% TS% on that kind of volume in the post. He was at 56.8% last year on 15 attempts. He has a 65% TS% because Monty is putting him into positions where can score easily. DA doesn't have a mean enough streak to be a go-to scorer. If he was on a team that tried to get him to score a lot, he'd be taking a lot more mid-rangers and probably would be around 55% TS%. He doesn't get to the line enough or shoot the 3 well enough to have a TS% much higher than that in a highish volume situation.

I haven't looked, but I assume I'mNotMcD is saying they put up 58-59% TS% overall, not just in post play. They surely got plenty of easy dunks too, particularly Shaq. He got a lot more than Ayton.

I can't look at Kareem's dunks, but I can go back and compare 20 years ago to today. What is interesting is the group from 20 years ago is in more games..at least 10 more games.

I know this goes against the argument that Shaq got more points than Ayton from post play since the argument was that Ayton gets easy baskets, but I think if you asked most people who dunked a higher % of their shots between Shaq and Ayton, most would say Shaq by far. Intersting enough, they both dunked about 16% of their shots according to this...of course he scored more which means he likely did more of everything to score, except shoot 3s.

Another interesting thing is that 16% of baskets from dunks from Shaq was by far the most back then in that list..but for Ayton, it's the least...most of those guys in today's list have a HUGE % of pts from dunks, and it's simply because of a change of the game due to the mathematicians....saying post play is worthless and you have to shoot 3s or get easy dunks. I'm sure we all remember Dan D'Antoni's long video about how those are the least efficient points today and the way to lose.

Oh sure, I didn't think that the difference was that great but that's because today you're either shooting 3's or layups/dunks. That's the goal every time down the floor for most teams. Shaq shot 90% of his shots in close though (less than 10 feet), and Ayton was at about 68% until this year but he has been much better in that arena. Almost 15% of his shots were long 2's his rookie year and this year that is down to 4.5%. Monty switching Aytons role up is what enabled him to become so efficient.

[NapoleonII]

I think it's a huge mistake to assume that post-play doesn't have a place in a modern offense.

It absolutely does.

Offenses are more complicated than just looking at where shots are coming from and trying to maximize the most efficient shot areas. Lost in that equitation is how defenses are playing you. It's why the mid-range has suddenly become so valuable because teams are so gravitated towards shutting down the rim shots and the 3 pointer.

I like to think of it more as "runs". As shots being strung together (because a lot of times they come off of excellent defensive play, something we've done pretty well at with Ayton and Bridges even Payne doing a lot of disrupting.)

So my point is - we're gonna have spells of TERRIBLE three point shooting. At that point, it's good to mix it up and stop the bleeding with a quick Ayton mid-range or a PnR shot at the rim/lob. That also gives the defenses something to think about on the next shot so it opens up our shooters/cutters because they're worried about Ayton finishing.

We are at our best when Ayton is scoring between 15-25 points.

[bwgood77]

I think it's a huge mistake to assume that post-play doesn't have a place in a modern offense.

It absolutely does.

Offenses are more complicated than just looking at where shots are coming from and trying to maximize the most efficient shot areas. Lost in that equitation is how defenses are playing you. It's why the mid-range has suddenly become so valuable because teams are so gravitated towards shutting down the rim shots and the 3 pointer.

I like to think of it more as "runs". As shots being strung together (because a lot of times they come off of excellent defensive play, something we've done pretty well at with Ayton and Bridges even Payne doing a lot of disrupting.)

So my point is - we're gonna have spells of TERRIBLE three point shooting. At that point, it's good to mix it up and stop the bleeding with a quick Ayton mid-range or a PnR shot at the rim/lob. That also gives the defenses something to think about on the next shot so it opens up our shooters/cutters because they're worried about Ayton finishing.

We are at our best when Ayton is scoring between 15-25 points.

Yeah, our only win in our last 4 was when they got him those shots. The below stat is pretty impressive in less than 3 years given the other guys listed playing in their primes for longer and Amare for a long time with mostly easy feeds from Nash.

And some say Ayton is inconsistent with the scoring, but he's really not..it simply depends on the # of shots...he is usually like 3/4 or 4/5 if he gets limited shots but when he gets more he's like 8/11 or 11/14 or something.

Read on Twitter

[Slim Charless]

I think it's a huge mistake to assume that post-play doesn't have a place in a modern offense.

It absolutely does.

Offenses are more complicated than just looking at where shots are coming from and trying to maximize the most efficient shot areas. Lost in that equitation is how defenses are playing you. It's why the mid-range has suddenly become so valuable because teams are so gravitated towards shutting down the rim shots and the 3 pointer.

I like to think of it more as "runs". As shots being strung together (because a lot of times they come off of excellent defensive play, something we've done pretty well at with Ayton and Bridges even Payne doing a lot of disrupting.)

So my point is - we're gonna have spells of TERRIBLE three point shooting. At that point, it's good to mix it up and stop the bleeding with a quick Ayton mid-range or a PnR shot at the rim/lob. That also gives the defenses something to think about on the next shot so it opens up our shooters/cutters because they're worried about Ayton finishing.

We are at our best when Ayton is scoring between 15-25 points.

Yeah, our only win in our last 4 was when they got him those shots. The below stat is pretty impressive in less than 3 years given the other guys listed playing in their primes for longer and Amare for a long time with mostly easy feeds from Nash.

And some say Ayton is inconsistent with the scoring, but he's really not..it simply depends on the # of shots...he is usually like 3/4 or 4/5 if he gets limited shots but when he gets more he's like 8/11 or 11/14 or something.

Read on Twitter

Depending on our match-up, I think DA is gonna blow up in the playoffs this year. We just need to make a more concerted effort to get him the ball. I say Drummond has nothing for him, neither does KP, DonkeyMond Green and while Nurk/Kanter can bang, the Blazers don't use them enough. Really hope Monty uses him more effectively in the next few weeks.

[NapoleonII]

I think he will struggle against the LA teams, who have the length/defensive team strategy to cause havoc and get him in foul trouble or take away his easy shots.

I think he'll light up Jokic/GSW/Spurs for 25/12 on 65% shooting, Jazz he'll be a solid 22/13.

Portland is the wildcard. Nurk is a good defender, really strong and plays hard.

[bwgood77]

I think it's going to be tough for just about any really young player in the playoffs for their first time. I think he likely will struggle, especially with the size of the Lakers. Like Channing Frye said when we played them, it's like 4 against 1 when they have AD/Harrell/Drummond/Gasol.

[lilfishi22]

Ayton will struggle because that's expected against elite teams like the LA's with big line ups but the issue is also that we don't have depth at that position. As BW mentioned, if you get AD in foul trouble (lol) they can still throw very playable guys with playoff experience in there. I won't say picking up a guy like McGee would solve that issue but it would at least mitigate some of drop in playability

[bwgood77]

Ayton will struggle because that's expected against elite teams like the LA's with big line ups but the issue is also that we don't have depth at that position. As BW mentioned, if you get AD in foul trouble (lol) they can still throw very playable guys with playoff experience in there. I won't say picking up a guy like McGee would solve that issue but it would at least mitigate some of drop in playability

And as I mentioned in another thread, young centers typically struggle in the playoffs to begin with..from 538

Ayton will be tasked with a role not typically assigned to someone his age. Since the advent of the 3-point line, only 31 times has a center in his age-22 season or younger averaged 25-plus minutes per game in the playoffs.1 The track record of those teams is not encouraging, with the group winning a grand total of 16 playoff series. Just nine of the 31 teams advanced beyond the first round — meaning these young centers’ teams were bounced before even winning a single series 71 percent of the time. Only four (13 percent) advanced beyond the second round. Just three (10 percent) made the Finals, and none of them won the title.

Players in recent years have been entering the NBA younger than their 1980s and 1990s counterparts and thus have tended to have a bit more experience by their age-22 season, but the success rates of teams counting on young centers in the playoffs have barely budged. Since the 2010-11 season, an age-22-or-younger center has played 25-plus playoff minutes per game 12 times. Only three of those centers (Steven Adams of the 2015-16 Thunder, Clint Capela of the 2016-17 Rockets and Bam Adebayo of the 2019-20 Heat) won at least one series. Two of them advanced to at least the conference finals, one made the NBA Finals, and, obviously, none won the title.

That’s a lot of history to be working against. For the Suns to overcome the odds, they’ll need Ayton to tap into every ounce of his considerable talent — on both ends of the floor.

It may not seem this way on the surface because he’s averaging a career-low 15 points per game, but Ayton has perhaps been a more effective offensive player this season than he was in either of his first two years. His usage rate is down, but he’s been far more efficient as a scorer. His true shooting percentage last season (56.8 percent) was right around league-average (56.5); this season, he’s been far better (65.2 percent vs. 57.1 percent). He’s boosted that efficiency by taking a greater share of his shots close to the basket — so much so that his average shot distance has dropped a full foot from last year (6.7 feet away from the rim) to this year (5.7 feet). Eschewing deep midrange attempts for those in the paint has allowed him to better capitalize on his size and short-range touch.

As many (including, well, me) predicted, Paul’s arrival has done wonders for Ayton’s pick-and-roll game. The average possession including an Ayton ball screen in his first two seasons yielded 1.062 points per possession for the Suns, per Second Spectrum, a below-average mark. This season, through Monday’s games, Ayton has been the second-most-frequent pick-and-roll screener in the league behind only Rudy Gobert. His ball screens have also been much more profitable than before Paul arrived, generating an average of 1.182 points per possession, the eighth-best mark among 88 players who have set at least 500 on-ball screens.

He’s shown good feel for when to make solid contact on his screens and when to slip, and it’s probably not a coincidence that his strongest pick-and-roll scoring season yet is the one in which he’s making contact on screens (and thus creating more space for Paul and Booker) a career-high 62.4 percent of the time, per Second Spectrum, up from 54.5 percent a year ago. Ayton’s also done well to stay involved all the way through the play regardless of whether he gets the ball on the roll.

[bwgood77]

Another interesting piece about him from Michael Shapiro at Sports Illustrated. A Monty quote and a CP3 quote.

The partnership between Ayton and Williams blossomed, with Phoenix’s head coach schooling Ayton on the finer points on quality big man play. It wasn’t enough for Ayton to post a double double. Weak-side rotations and baseline screens became the measure of Ayton’s effectiveness as he received a rapid NBA education. As the 2019–20 season came to a close, Ayton stood as a plausible, albeit imperfect, No. 1 pick.

“Deandre is an excellent screener, not just in pick-and-rolls, but away from the ball as well,” Williams says. “He lays wood on a lot of guys, and it frees a lot of our ballhandlers, our shooters. He’s active, he has the right angle, he doesn’t get enough credit for that.”

Ayton’s scoring has taken a dip this season, though he’s a more effective player in his third year by nearly every conceivable metric. His effective field goal percentage is up to a career-high 62.4%. His net rating has climbed to plus 7.2 points per 100 possessions. He trails only three players in screen assists, and his 1.36 points per possession mark in the pick-and-roll leads all 27 players to log at least 100 roll possessions. Ayton is far more than a simple screener and rim runner, sporting a respectable handle and a knack for smart interior passing. The nascent skill set that was on display at Arizona has evolved into a fully functional arsenal.

He’s met every task thrown his way this season, and his growth as a complete center seems to accelerate by the week. Ayton could prove to be a playoff x-factor. He could become an All-NBA talent in the coming years.

“Deandre is always getting more consistent,” Paul says. “Playing big games night in, night out, that’s tough. But he just keeps growing and growing.”

[lilfishi22]

Ayton will struggle because that's expected against elite teams like the LA's with big line ups but the issue is also that we don't have depth at that position. As BW mentioned, if you get AD in foul trouble (lol) they can still throw very playable guys with playoff experience in there. I won't say picking up a guy like McGee would solve that issue but it would at least mitigate some of drop in playability

And as I mentioned in another thread, young centers typically struggle in the playoffs to begin with..from 538

Ayton will be tasked with a role not typically assigned to someone his age. Since the advent of the 3-point line, only 31 times has a center in his age-22 season or younger averaged 25-plus minutes per game in the playoffs.1 The track record of those teams is not encouraging, with the group winning a grand total of 16 playoff series. Just nine of the 31 teams advanced beyond the first round — meaning these young centers’ teams were bounced before even winning a single series 71 percent of the time. Only four (13 percent) advanced beyond the second round. Just three (10 percent) made the Finals, and none of them won the title.

Players in recent years have been entering the NBA younger than their 1980s and 1990s counterparts and thus have tended to have a bit more experience by their age-22 season, but the success rates of teams counting on young centers in the playoffs have barely budged. Since the 2010-11 season, an age-22-or-younger center has played 25-plus playoff minutes per game 12 times. Only three of those centers (Steven Adams of the 2015-16 Thunder, Clint Capela of the 2016-17 Rockets and Bam Adebayo of the 2019-20 Heat) won at least one series. Two of them advanced to at least the conference finals, one made the NBA Finals, and, obviously, none won the title.

That’s a lot of history to be working against. For the Suns to overcome the odds, they’ll need Ayton to tap into every ounce of his considerable talent — on both ends of the floor.

It may not seem this way on the surface because he’s averaging a career-low 15 points per game, but Ayton has perhaps been a more effective offensive player this season than he was in either of his first two years. His usage rate is down, but he’s been far more efficient as a scorer. His true shooting percentage last season (56.8 percent) was right around league-average (56.5); this season, he’s been far better (65.2 percent vs. 57.1 percent). He’s boosted that efficiency by taking a greater share of his shots close to the basket — so much so that his average shot distance has dropped a full foot from last year (6.7 feet away from the rim) to this year (5.7 feet). Eschewing deep midrange attempts for those in the paint has allowed him to better capitalize on his size and short-range touch.

As many (including, well, me) predicted, Paul’s arrival has done wonders for Ayton’s pick-and-roll game. The average possession including an Ayton ball screen in his first two seasons yielded 1.062 points per possession for the Suns, per Second Spectrum, a below-average mark. This season, through Monday’s games, Ayton has been the second-most-frequent pick-and-roll screener in the league behind only Rudy Gobert. His ball screens have also been much more profitable than before Paul arrived, generating an average of 1.182 points per possession, the eighth-best mark among 88 players who have set at least 500 on-ball screens.

He’s shown good feel for when to make solid contact on his screens and when to slip, and it’s probably not a coincidence that his strongest pick-and-roll scoring season yet is the one in which he’s making contact on screens (and thus creating more space for Paul and Booker) a career-high 62.4 percent of the time, per Second Spectrum, up from 54.5 percent a year ago. Ayton’s also done well to stay involved all the way through the play regardless of whether he gets the ball on the roll.

Wasn't a sleight on Ayton. Every C has issues with elite teams, especially those with big front courts

[Biff]

Another interesting piece about him from Michael Shapiro at Sports Illustrated. A Monty quote and a CP3 quote.

The partnership between Ayton and Williams blossomed, with Phoenix’s head coach schooling Ayton on the finer points on quality big man play. It wasn’t enough for Ayton to post a double double. Weak-side rotations and baseline screens became the measure of Ayton’s effectiveness as he received a rapid NBA education. As the 2019–20 season came to a close, Ayton stood as a plausible, albeit imperfect, No. 1 pick.

“Deandre is an excellent screener, not just in pick-and-rolls, but away from the ball as well,” Williams says. “He lays wood on a lot of guys, and it frees a lot of our ballhandlers, our shooters. He’s active, he has the right angle, he doesn’t get enough credit for that.”

Ayton’s scoring has taken a dip this season, though he’s a more effective player in his third year by nearly every conceivable metric. His effective field goal percentage is up to a career-high 62.4%. His net rating has climbed to plus 7.2 points per 100 possessions. He trails only three players in screen assists, and his 1.36 points per possession mark in the pick-and-roll leads all 27 players to log at least 100 roll possessions. Ayton is far more than a simple screener and rim runner, sporting a respectable handle and a knack for smart interior passing. The nascent skill set that was on display at Arizona has evolved into a fully functional arsenal.

He’s met every task thrown his way this season, and his growth as a complete center seems to accelerate by the week. Ayton could prove to be a playoff x-factor. He could become an All-NBA talent in the coming years.

“Deandre is always getting more consistent,” Paul says. “Playing big games night in, night out, that’s tough. But he just keeps growing and growing.”

I don't agree at all that he has a respectable handle but he has become a good passer for sure. All of our bigs have improved their passing though. Frank has also become a reliable passing big.