Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons

[thamadkant]

I've said it a few times in the past...

Add a Prime Rasheed Wallace and Joakim Noah on the current Suns team, maybe Deng over Tucker for a little more offense and length.. and that team would be a championship contender.

C: Noah
PF: Wallace
SF: Deng
SG: Dragic
PG: Bledsoe

Oh my...


Of course I could of put in any of the Golden era centers... but the point is.. Suns just need "great" role playing SF, PF and C to be great... but 90% of the NBA teams can say the same, especially in today's modern offenses/defenses... Warriors is another team that would benefit massively.

[JMac1]

Your post suggest that because the Pistons had two hof guards and won a title, that the Suns can do the same with Dragic and Bledsoe as their best players. You really don't see the difference in those pairs? Please exain how you think the Suns can be contenders with Dragic, Bledsoe, and IT as our best players.


Yes, you can build a team with combo guards, when the two guards are perennial all stars and future hall of famers, but that's not what the Suns have. Our guards are not even allstars

It's a different era and what worked back may not work now. But, what wouldn't work then, may possibly work now. I'm not making an argument that we have a championship team because we have two good combo guards and the Bad Boy Pistons also had two great combo guards but when we can win 48 games with a bunch of youngins and no superstar, I think we can make an argument that we have a solid foundation to build off.

Coming off a 48 win season with our 2nd best player injured for half the season, I don't see why we can't be one solid big man away from being a top seeded WC team.[/quote]

Thank you.

[Scutt]

It's a different era and what worked back may not work now. But, what wouldn't work then, may possibly work now. I'm not making an argument that we have a championship team because we have two good combo guards and the Bad Boy Pistons also had two great combo guards but when we can win 48 games with a bunch of youngins and no superstar, I think we can make an argument that we have a solid foundation to build off.

Coming off a 48 win season with our 2nd best player injured for half the season, I don't see why we can't be one solid big man away from being a top seeded WC team.

There was only one player under the age of 24 in the Suns rotation last year, and that was Eric Bledsoe, who missed a good chunk of games. Last years overachievement had a lot to do with Dragic, PJ Tucker, Channing Frye, and Gerald Green all having career years. None of those guys are what I call young by basketball terms.

The only young rotation pieces on this team are Bledsoe, the Morris Bros., Plumlee, and possibly Alex Len. Archie Goodwin, Tyler Ennis, and TJ Warren are more than likely not going to make the rotation because our front office cares more about being an 8th seed than they do player development. Why else would they bring back PJ Tucker and sign IT? Those two do nothing but stand in the way of Goodwin, Marcus, and TJ's development.

My biggest fear for this season is the Suns miss the playoffs again and do not provide quality minutes for Archie Goodwin and the young guys.

[NaturalBuns]

It's a different era and what worked back may not work now. But, what wouldn't work then, may possibly work now. I'm not making an argument that we have a championship team because we have two good combo guards and the Bad Boy Pistons also had two great combo guards but when we can win 48 games with a bunch of youngins and no superstar, I think we can make an argument that we have a solid foundation to build off.

Coming off a 48 win season with our 2nd best player injured for half the season, I don't see why we can't be one solid big man away from being a top seeded WC team.

There was only one player under the age of 24 in the Suns rotation last year, and that was Eric Bledsoe, who missed a good chunk of games. Last years overachievement had a lot to do with Dragic, PJ Tucker, Channing Frye, and Gerald Green all having career years. None of those guys are what I call young by basketball terms.

The only young rotation pieces on this team are Bledsoe, the Morris Bros., Plumlee, and possibly Alex Len. Archie Goodwin, Tyler Ennis, and TJ Warren are more than likely not going to make the rotation because our front office cares more about being an 8th seed than they do player development. Why else would they bring back PJ Tucker and sign IT? Those two do nothing but stand in the way of Goodwin, Marcus, and TJ's development.

My biggest fear for this season is the Suns miss the playoffs again and do not provide quality minutes for Archie Goodwin and the young guys.

This team has no worries.
They lost only one player from last years rotation. (Not counting smith)
They didn't make the playoffs because Bledsoe went down.. It's not opinion it's fact.
As long as Dragic/Bledsoe don't miss signifant time this year suns should be fine.

They could literally lose Marcus or Green and you'd probably wouldn't see this team miss a beat because warren would get one of those roles. If this team somehow someway finds itself in the same exact position as last year at trade deadline seeds 6-9. Id bet Ryan McD will make a trade.

With Ennis,Goodwin,Warren,2015 phx, 2015 LA, 2015 Minn and let's not forget he drafted a 1st round European as well bogdanovic. He can unload at anytime. Not much teams have what the suns have going. The only issue this team has is Center. Who is Alex Len?

[Scutt]

With Ennis,Goodwin,Warren,2015 phx, 2015 LA, 2015 Minn and let's not forget he drafted a 1st round European as well bogdanovic. He can unload at anytime. Not much teams have what the suns have going. The only issue this team has is Center. Who is Alex Len?

I guess its just two different schools of thought. As a Suns fan I would be very upset if we traded Len, Goodwin, or Warren just to make a push for the playoffs. I always want the Suns to fully develop the guys they draft and not give up on them too soon. I don't want to give up on the long term plan of building a contender for simply being a playoff team now.

I am not ready to buy into the idea that the 48 wins from last year can be used as a benchmark. That is, if we get a solid big man, that we are suddenly going to be at 58 wins and be a contender. This group could just as easily take a step back and only win around 40 or less.

I don't want to see the Suns be a treadmill team that gives up on the few young prospects they have, just in order to keep the treadmill going and be a 7th or 8th seed for the next few years. Being the 8th seed is fine when your core all has very high ceilings, but the Suns, in my opinion, only have one guy in the rotation with a high ceiling and that is Bledsoe and possibly Alex Len. I believe Warren and Goodwin have extremely high ceilings too, but that might just be the Suns fan in me.

[lilfishi22]

There was only one player under the age of 24 in the Suns rotation last year, and that was Eric Bledsoe, who missed a good chunk of games. Last years overachievement had a lot to do with Dragic, PJ Tucker, Channing Frye, and Gerald Green all having career years. None of those guys are what I call young by basketball terms.

The only young rotation pieces on this team are Bledsoe, the Morris Bros., Plumlee, and possibly Alex Len. Archie Goodwin, Tyler Ennis, and TJ Warren are more than likely not going to make the rotation because our front office cares more about being an 8th seed than they do player development. Why else would they bring back PJ Tucker and sign IT? Those two do nothing but stand in the way of Goodwin, Marcus, and TJ's development.

My biggest fear for this season is the Suns miss the playoffs again and do not provide quality minutes for Archie Goodwin and the young guys.

I want minutes for our young guys too but if they aren't performing, then you're putting them in there only to lose games. We're not taking a step back from our 48win season just to give minutes to our young guys. The young guys will earn their minutes in practice and they will naturally get real game minutes.

Aside from the age nitpicking, we really didn't have a superstar to take us to a couple of games outside of the playoffs in the West. The closest we got was an MIP winner who didn't even make it to all-star. With Frye gone, we're a younger team, and could match and improve on our record last season with a healthy Bledsoe and internal improvements.

[NaturalBuns]

With Ennis,Goodwin,Warren,2015 phx, 2015 LA, 2015 Minn and let's not forget he drafted a 1st round European as well bogdanovic. He can unload at anytime. Not much teams have what the suns have going. The only issue this team has is Center. Who is Alex Len?

I guess its just two different schools of thought. As a Suns fan I would be very upset if we traded Len, Goodwin, or Warren just to make a push for the playoffs. I always want the Suns to fully develop the guys they draft and not give up on them too soon. I don't want to give up on the long term plan of building a contender for simply being a playoff team now.

I am not ready to buy into the idea that the 48 wins from last year can be used as a benchmark. That is, if we get a solid big man, that we are suddenly going to be at 58 wins and be a contender. This group could just as easily take a step back and only win around 40 or less.

I don't want to see the Suns be a treadmill team that gives up on the few young prospects they have, just in order to keep the treadmill going and be a 7th or 8th seed for the next few years. Being the 8th seed is fine when your core all has very high ceilings, but the Suns, in my opinion, only have one guy in the rotation with a high ceiling and that is Bledsoe and possibly Alex Len. I believe Warren and Goodwin have extremely high ceilings too, but that might just be the Suns fan in me.

But your talking as if getting a 6-8 seed is bad.
Did you not watch the west last year? They don't call this conference the best for no reason.
8th seed taking a 1seed to 7 games.
7th seed taking a 2seed to 7 games.
6th seed taking a 3seed to 7 games.

Plus if suns packaged picks and young assets you know it's going to be for something substantial not a rental.
You don't trade away 3 1st, 2-3 young guys for crumbs.
You think it would be for a longevity big

Other then that what i said above ^
Team is in a excellent spot no worries

[JTrain]

Oh hey guys.

[batsmasher]

Oh hey guys.

jelly.

[RunDogGun]

Wtf!?

Jeff has been very clear, that whoever plays well, will play more. It gives all of our rookies an opportunity to get playing minutes. So either you trust our coach, and his methods, or you don't. But for the life of me, I don't see the argument for not trusting Jeff at this point.

[Frank Lee]

I've said it a few times in the past...

Add a Prime Rasheed Wallace and Joakim Noah on the current Suns team, maybe Deng over Tucker for a little more offense and length.. and that team would be a championship contender.

C: Noah
PF: Wallace
SF: Deng
SG: Dragic
PG: Bledsoe

Oh my...


Of course I could of put in any of the Golden era centers... but the point is.. Suns just need "great" role playing SF, PF and C to be great... but 90% of the NBA teams can say the same, especially in today's modern offenses/defenses... Warriors is another team that would benefit massively.

great contribution

I wish I would have thought of it... at least then I would not have to have read it.


PS.... who's this Vitor the Celts are talking about/dangling for release ?
A bigger body... young... could be had cheap. Was a D-leaguer by default last yr. Any interest or input ? I always have thought McDo has Ainge on speed dial.

[wordsenuff]

Oh hey guys.

i want...

[Puff]

I've said it a few times in the past...

Add a Prime Rasheed Wallace and Joakim Noah on the current Suns team, maybe Deng over Tucker for a little more offense and length.. and that team would be a championship contender.

C: Noah
PF: Wallace
SF: Deng
SG: Dragic
PG: Bledsoe

Oh my...


Of course I could of put in any of the Golden era centers... but the point is.. Suns just need "great" role playing SF, PF and C to be great... but 90% of the NBA teams can say the same, especially in today's modern offenses/defenses... Warriors is another team that would benefit massively.

I do not think we need a Wallace, Noah, Kareem, or Wilt.

I doubt any of those big men on that Pistons team will ever make the HOF, maybe Rodman or Wallace. The Golden State Warriors won a championship in the 70's with two journeyman centers in Clifford Ray 6'9" and George Johnson 6' 11". Neither could shoot a lick but they rebounded and played defense. Which center on the Jordan led Bulls teams will make the HOF, what were there names. Whoever they were, they played defense and rebounded.

I think we could have adequate players already on the roster for the 5 in Len and Plumlee. They just need to play within themselves. I could care less if they ever become go to players in the paint. We do not need many points from them. I want rebounding and defense. That usually comes with a heart beat. Hopefully that message is being sent to both.

The thing what gets you excited is that we have potential long term fits at every position. It will be up to the players to step up and get the job done. If they don't it will be up to Ryan to make moves to upgrade the positions of weakness when the opportunity presents itself.

Let the season begin

[Son of Ra]

I've said it a few times in the past...

Add a Prime Rasheed Wallace and Joakim Noah on the current Suns team, maybe Deng over Tucker for a little more offense and length.. and that team would be a championship contender.

C: Noah
PF: Wallace
SF: Deng
SG: Dragic
PG: Bledsoe

Oh my...


Of course I could of put in any of the Golden era centers... but the point is.. Suns just need "great" role playing SF, PF and C to be great... but 90% of the NBA teams can say the same, especially in today's modern offenses/defenses... Warriors is another team that would benefit massively.

I think adding just Noah would make us contenders. He would be perfect for us, he is everything this team is missing. Been saying it all last season.
And for everyone mentioning that we don't have an allstar; A it is totally overrated and partially a popularity contest (all NBA means much more) and B I think most would agree that Dragic got snubbed.

[Jarlaxle0204]

I doubt any of those big men on that Pistons team will ever make the HOF, maybe Rodman or Wallace.

Rodman's already in the HOF.

[bwgood77]

I've said it a few times in the past...

Add a Prime Rasheed Wallace and Joakim Noah on the current Suns team, maybe Deng over Tucker for a little more offense and length.. and that team would be a championship contender.

C: Noah
PF: Wallace
SF: Deng
SG: Dragic
PG: Bledsoe

Oh my...


Of course I could of put in any of the Golden era centers... but the point is.. Suns just need "great" role playing SF, PF and C to be great... but 90% of the NBA teams can say the same, especially in today's modern offenses/defenses... Warriors is another team that would benefit massively.

You could probably take any team in the league and put three former all stars on it and they would be a contender. Maybe not Philly, but put three former all stars with MCW and Noel they might be right there too.

[John Murdoch]

Sooooo....about dat LAL 1st....lol you guys pwned us hard in that deal

[Bogyo]

Sooooo....about dat LAL 1st....lol you guys pwned us hard in that deal

Much obliged!
Our only fear that it will be a top5 pick and you get to keep it.

[Years90Suns]

When did the Worm get labeled as a big? He was a 6'7 SF.

Come on kerrsed, your better than that. Probably the greatest rebounder in history. He played small forward (couple years) before locking himself into the power forward role. It's common knowledge rodman IS a power forward.

Charles Barkley is a big and he was only 6'6 (power forward).

"Another example of an effective power forward who does not fit the standard template is Dennis Rodman, who was able to out-rebound and defend rival power forwards despite being only 6 feet 7 inches (2.00 m) tall. Likewise, Charles Barkley was one of the most dominating power forwards, despite being generously listed at 6 feet 6 inches (1.98 m) he admits being closer to 6 feet 4 3/4 inches (1.95 m). Barkley's playing weight of roughly 252 pounds (114 kg) was, however, typical for the position."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_fo ... basketball)

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Rodman also defended some Cs with not many problems.
I remember him defending Brikowski, who was 6-10/6-11. And many others.
Actually I can remember some Bulls court teams with Jordan-Harper-Pippen-Kukoc-Rodman.
Jackson would go either with two real bigs at the same time (Williams and Wennington, Longley, etc) or two really small FC players.
Pippen, Harper and Jordan made inside passes really difficult. So the other team's bigs did not get the ball much. When they did, entry passes were often a lob, so quick defenders had options of stealing them. Even when a big had set up position, backing uo Rodman was not easy task AT ALL.
Playing alongside Robinson in the Spurs he was really muscled up. I remember him defending the C and the Admiral guarding the PF. So he could also arrive from the weak side for help.

[Scutt]

But your talking as if getting a 6-8 seed is bad.
Did you not watch the west last year? They don't call this conference the best for no reason.
8th seed taking a 1seed to 7 games.
7th seed taking a 2seed to 7 games.
6th seed taking a 3seed to 7 games.

Plus if suns packaged picks and young assets you know it's going to be for something substantial not a rental.
You don't trade away 3 1st, 2-3 young guys for crumbs.
You think it would be for a longevity big

Other then that what i said above ^
Team is in a excellent spot no worries

Did you even read the last paragraph of my post that you quoted? I DO think its bad to be an 8th seed if you don't have the pieces to grow into a contender. Why should I want the Suns to be the 6th through 8th seed for the next 5 years? So I can hope there is a slight chance that they can upset someone and they get bounced in the 2nd round instead of the first. No thank you.

Bottom line, the Western Conference is deep, like you pointed out, the Suns are not going to be able scrap for the 8th seed AND give quality minutes to the young guys. I want Goodwin, and Warren to get an opportunity to play. I understand they need to preform in order to get minutes, but its a little ridiculous when we bring in even more guards and forwards over the offseason that limits their oppurtunites.