Offseason Thread 7: A Tale Of Two Dragons

[phrazbit]

We're doing what the Rockets did. Stock piling assets, keeping a ton of flexibility to swing a big deal, while still putting a solid product on the court. Its an admirable way to rebuild.

[lilfishi22]

I do not think we need a Wallace, Noah, Kareem, or Wilt.

I doubt any of those big men on that Pistons team will ever make the HOF, maybe Rodman or Wallace. The Golden State Warriors won a championship in the 70's with two journeyman centers in Clifford Ray 6'9" and George Johnson 6' 11". Neither could shoot a lick but they rebounded and played defense. Which center on the Jordan led Bulls teams will make the HOF, what were there names. Whoever they were, they played defense and rebounded.

I think we could have adequate players already on the roster for the 5 in Len and Plumlee. They just need to play within themselves. I could care less if they ever become go to players in the paint. We do not need many points from them. I want rebounding and defense. That usually comes with a heart beat. Hopefully that message is being sent to both.

The thing what gets you excited is that we have potential long term fits at every position. It will be up to the players to step up and get the job done. If they don't it will be up to Ryan to make moves to upgrade the positions of weakness when the opportunity presents itself.

Let the season begin

This is where our opinions deviate. I do actually think we need an above average big man for us to become a championship calibre team. I don't think Plumlee would do and Len would have to make leaps and bounds in improvements to be that guy. Kieff can be our starting 4 but we still need an upgrade at the 5.

[lilfishi22]

We're doing what the Rockets did. Stock piling assets, keeping a ton of flexibility to swing a big deal, while still putting a solid product on the court. Its an admirable way to rebuild.

That's been our plan all along and I'm glad we're playing it that way rather than trying to keep max cap space and just going all in on a bunch of FA's in free agency. Keeps us flexible, keeps us stacked and most importantly, keeps us competitive.

Sooooo....about dat LAL 1st....lol you guys pwned us hard in that deal

I'm still surprised we got anything from LA considering Nash was on his way out and wanted to go to LA.

[Scutt]

We're doing what the Rockets did. Stock piling assets, keeping a ton of flexibility to swing a big deal, while still putting a solid product on the court. Its an admirable way to rebuild.

So the plan is to be mediocre for years and pin all our hopes on a superstar demanding a trade? How often does that really happen? How much flexibility will there really be with the Morris Bros., Bledsoe, and assuming they retain Dragic, all locked up on long term deals? There may be some, but I don't see tons.

Both free agency and the draft are a crapshoot, but at least with the draft, you are not risking nearly as much. If the player turn out to be good, you have them under your control at a great price, if they are bad, you lose a couple million. How many times in free agency do players check out after their big payday or go to teams where they just don't fit and cant replicate their former number?

As a Suns fan, I would much rather watch us draft and develop our franchise player then to hope for one to suddenly choose Phoenix in free agency AND have it be a good fit with the current team. I don't mind being bad for a few years if that's what it takes, I have time. Who knows, if we weren't so concerned about being a playoff team and gave solid minutes to Goodwin and Warren, maybe one of those two would blossom into a perennial all-star.

[lilfishi22]

So the plan is to be mediocre for years and pin all our hopes on a superstar demanding a trade? How often does that really happen? How much flexibility will there really be with the Morris Bros., Bledsoe, and assuming they retain Dragic, all locked up on long term deals? There may be some, but I don't see tons.

Both free agency and the draft are a crapshoot, but at least with the draft, you are not risking nearly as much. If the player turn out to be good, you have them under your control at a great price, if they are bad, you lose a couple million. How many times in free agency do players check out after their big payday or go to teams where they just don't fit and cant replicate their former number?

As a Suns fan, I would much rather watch us draft and develop our franchise player then to hope for one to suddenly choose Phoenix in free agency AND have it be a good fit with the current team. I don't mind being bad for a few years if that's what it takes, I have time. Who knows, if we weren't so concerned about being a playoff team and gave solid minutes to Goodwin and Warren, maybe one of those two would blossom into a perennial all-star.

You ridicule the route the Rockets of being "mediocre" and waited for a chance to sign a superstar, but then you don't mind being crap (mediocre) either for a few seasons for an internal superstar to somehow emerge?

1. We WILL be mediocre if we gave Goodwin, Len and TJ big minutes for them to develop and there is no guarantee they will turn into all-stars either so we would've essentially spent time being mediocre for nothing.

2. If both the FA and draft is a crap shoot and we got Goodwin, Len and TJ through the draft, doesn't that mean we have as much chance of landing a superstar/all-star that fits our style of play through FA/trade asGoodwin, Len and TJ blossoming into an all/star?

3. The Rockets were very competitive despite lacking in talent. They played better than .500 ball in the West for 3 solid seasons between the departure of Yao and the arrival of Harden. So, they were hardly "mediocre" while they gathered assets to swing a big trade for Harden(they didn't do it through FA).

4. Do you realise how much the Rockets gave up for Harden? Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb, two first round picks and a second round pick. One of the picks turned out to be Steven Adams, which is awesome, but the others are a late Mavs pick (top 20 protected) and a 2nd rounder. You could easily argue we have just as much if not better assets to make a similar trade.

[phrazbit]

We're doing what the Rockets did. Stock piling assets, keeping a ton of flexibility to swing a big deal, while still putting a solid product on the court. Its an admirable way to rebuild.

So the plan is to be mediocre for years and pin all our hopes on a superstar demanding a trade? How often does that really happen?

It happens pretty frequently. In the last couple years 3 guys have done it. Love, Dwight, Harden. You've got way better odds of landing a star that way than by hoping you can stubble into the blind luck of the lotto, and its only going to get worse when they reform the lotto odds to punish tanking teams. And its one thing to say "we should blow this up and rebuild through the draft" when you have a team like we did in 2012, with guys pushing 40 as our best players and virtually no tradable assets on the roster. Its totally different to think you should blow up a team that push for 50 wins last year, and almost everyone is in their mid 20s.

I also think that anyone who is advising we need to "develop the kids" and give dudes like Goodwin and Len huge minutes are grossly overrating the ceilings of those players. Goodwin's inability to shoot and horrible decision making are gigantic obstacles to overcome, most guys of his mold never do. IMO his best case is a slashing 3 and D guy, but he has a long way to go just to get the "3" part down.

[jcsunsfan]

We're doing what the Rockets did. Stock piling assets, keeping a ton of flexibility to swing a big deal, while still putting a solid product on the court. Its an admirable way to rebuild.

So the plan is to be mediocre for years and pin all our hopes on a superstar demanding a trade? How often does that really happen?

It happens pretty frequently. In the last couple years 3 guys have done it. Love, Dwight, Harden. You've got way better odds of landing a star that way than by hoping you can stubble into the blind luck of the lotto, and its only going to get worse when they reform the lotto odds to punish tanking teams. And its one thing to say "we should blow this up and rebuild through the draft" when you have a team like we did in 2012, with guys pushing 40 as our best players and virtually no tradable assets on the roster. Its totally different to think you should blow up a team that push for 50 wins last year, and almost everyone is in their mid 20s.

I also think that anyone who is advising we need to "develop the kids" and give dudes like Goodwin and Len huge minutes are grossly overrating the ceilings of those players. Goodwin's inability to shoot and horrible decision making are gigantic obstacles to overcome, most guys of his mold never do. IMO his best case is a slashing 3 and D guy, but he has a long way to go just to get the "3" part down.

If you really believe you have developable talent in your young players (Goodwin, Len, etc) then you can trade a package of your mature talent (Plumlee, Green, Tucker, even Bledsoe, or Goran) for that next piece.

In fact, that is just what I think it will take. If we get a shot at a superstar player, it will probably take Bledsoe, or Goran, plus other players and picks. The good news is that we have those assets to work with. It just takes the right opportunity. And that usually is a team that is just falling apart and needs to really shake things up.

Teams that may do that? Portland and New Jersey are the best bets in my book. New Jersey has to fairly young bigs in Lopez and Plumlee. I could see Lopez becoming available because of frustration over continuing injury problems (like Tyson Chandler early in his career). But then, we might not want him for the same reason.

[NavLDO]

We had our chance last year in the draft to draft that "perennial" All Star, stud superstar by drafting 5th. And we drafted Len. So far, things are not looking great for him...BUT...he is a big, and they do take longer, and he missed a lot of time to injuries. So I don't see it this year, for Len. If Hornacek doesn't get a good feeling about Len by the end of this year, sad as it may be to say, he may need to be part of a package to get said All-Star, OR, package him and the 3 picks we own (well, maybe 3, more likely 2), and try to move up. Our luck in the draft hasn't been kind in the past, but MAYBE, this year it is and we get a top 8-10 pick from LAL. That and our pick, and any mix of Len, Goodwin, Ennis, PJ, Plumlee, IT(?), Bogdan rights, might get us in the top 3-4, so we might be able to get a second chance at this. And BTW, I purposely left off Warren, because I really have a good feeling about him. I STILL can't believe he fell to us--dude was sorely underrated, IMO, so hopefully he isn't even considered as a trade chip. We need a stud SF, and we don't have one right now (sorry, PJ/Marcus).

Anyway, point being, we do need one more to make a "Big 3"--and part of that has to actually be a "Big". Having a Big 3 at PG (Dragic, EB, IT) doesn't count (you could put IT on EB's shoulders, I guess, but that then leaves us with one more to complete the "Big 3" ). I like Kieff, but his ceiling is likely a top 10 PF, not quite All-NBA material. And even if Warren busts out, like I said, you still need a Big, and SFs don't count. So that leaves the 5. And in 2015, that leaves Okafor and Towns (and Cliff Alexander, if you count a guy who is 6'9", though with a 7'3" wingspan, as adequate for an NBA starting 5), and unless anything changes, Towns/Okafor are both top 5, if not top 3, prospects. So that would require us putting together a pretty nice package. The Sixers might be willing, as they most assuredly wouldn't take a 3rd big, right? I really think that is the only hope we have at getting an All-NBA caliber 5. When a team gets their hands on one, they don't like to give them up. PGs? SGs? SFs? Sure, but not legit Centers. They are too hard to find and take too long to develop, and have too many injury issues. I'd love to get our hands on a guy like Cousins, Drummond, Noah, Jefferson, or Horford, but the fact is, it would take probably more assets than they are probably worth, to pry them away.

But in the end, if Warren can develop into an All-NBA SF in the next couple of years, and Plumlee somehow continues to mature into a top 15 C, or Len develops into his potential, basically what I see as each players ceiling at that point, below, we could be in a pretty darn good place by the 2016-2017 season...like 2-3 seed good.

EB (top 12)
Dragic (top 30)
Warren (top 20)
Kieff (top 60)
Len/Plumlee (top 70/top 100ish) OR Okafor/Towns (? after rookie season)

What do you think is our best bet? Or best chances?

Draft Towns/Okafor

Plumlee/Len develop

Trade for a stud Center

[Qwigglez]

I think we're trading Isaiah Thomas by midseason.

[Jdiddy701]

I think we're trading Isaiah Thomas by midseason.

We better not.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[jcsunsfan]

I think we are two players away from a "big three." While Iike the Bledsoe/Dragic combo at guard, I cannot see them being two parts of a big three. A big three should be a guard, a wing, and a big--JMO.

In a championship level big three, the three have to be two way players. If Kevin Love proves me wrong this year I will revise my opinion. That said, Bledsoe is our one piece. I am fine with keeping Goran, but we need a wing and a big. Warren could become the wing, but that remains to be seen.

[aIvin adams]

I think we are two players away from a "big three." While Iike the Bledsoe/Dragic combo at guard, I cannot see them being two parts of a big three. A big three should be a guard, a wing, and a big--JMO.

In a championship level big three, the three have to be two way players. If Kevin Love proves me wrong this year I will revise my opinion. That said, Bledsoe is our one piece. I am fine with keeping Goran, but we need a wing and a big. Warren could become the wing, but that remains to be seen.

if kevin love and kyrie irving prove you wrong**

(they are both 1 way players is what im trying to say)

[jcsunsfan]

I think we are two players away from a "big three." While Iike the Bledsoe/Dragic combo at guard, I cannot see them being two parts of a big three. A big three should be a guard, a wing, and a big--JMO.

In a championship level big three, the three have to be two way players. If Kevin Love proves me wrong this year I will revise my opinion. That said, Bledsoe is our one piece. I am fine with keeping Goran, but we need a wing and a big. Warren could become the wing, but that remains to be seen.

if kevin love and kyrie irving prove you wrong**

(they are both 1 way players is what im trying to say)

I stand corrected. You are right.

Just look at the big threes of the past champions

Wade/LeBron/Bosh
Parker/Ginobili/Duncan
Allen/Pierce/Garnett
Kobe/Pau (Shaq) etc. Ok, this one is an exception. There were good role players, but no one else star level.

[Zelaznyrules]

I think we are two players away from a "big three." While Iike the Bledsoe/Dragic combo at guard, I cannot see them being two parts of a big three. A big three should be a guard, a wing, and a big--JMO.

In a championship level big three, the three have to be two way players. If Kevin Love proves me wrong this year I will revise my opinion. That said, Bledsoe is our one piece. I am fine with keeping Goran, but we need a wing and a big. Warren could become the wing, but that remains to be seen.

if kevin love and kyrie irving prove you wrong**

(they are both 1 way players is what im trying to say)

I stand corrected. You are right.

Just look at the big threes of the past champions

Wade/LeBron/Bosh
Parker/Ginobili/Duncan
Allen/Pierce/Garnett
Kobe/Pau (Shaq) etc. Ok, this one is an exception. There were good role players, but no one else star level.

So you consider Parker and Ginobili to be two way players? As far as I'm concerned, Love is a better defender than either of them. His on ball and help defense isn't great but rebounding is such a huge part of defense for a power forward and he excels there.

[NTB]

Don't underestimate Parker and Gino's defenses.

[aIvin adams]

Gerald Green for Monroe?

who says no?

[NTB]

Gerald Green for Monroe?

who says no?

Detroit says no

[NavLDO]

Gerald Green for Monroe?

who says no?

That's an easy "yes" from our end, I think. Not so much on Detroit's.

But even then, there's the whole "spacing" issue with Monroe, that many believe to be an issue. Me personally, I don't think it's that big enough of a deal to turn down having him as a starter. And Green is not going to start for us, but he could probably start for a handful of other teams, at least, IMO.

What about some sort of trade with McD's old mentor Ainge. Does Boston have anything we want in exchange for Ennis plus picks? I mean, they are likely to lose Rondo, and Ennis might come in handy, even though they just added Smart. Olynyk? Zeller? Sullinger?

I ask because unless Plumlee reverts back, he's looking, admittedly shocking to myself, not so good as of late. And with Len and his nagging little injuries, I wouldn't want to go an extended amount of time with Kieff as our starting 5.

[Sunsdeuce]

FYI:

1)
The Brooklyn Nets and Boston Celtics will play a 44-minute game — four minutes shorter than a regulation NBA game — Sunday at the Barclays Center. Playing four 11-minute quarters is a one-time preseason experiment and only exploratory. However, at the recent NBA coaches' meeting in Chicago, the length of games was a topic, and it was suggested the NBA take a look at shortening games. USA Today Sports

"We have looked at everything that we do and are taking a fresh look at all the different things we do," NBA president of basketball operations Rod Thorn said. "One of the things that keeps coming up is our schedule and the length of our games. … Our coaches talked about it, and a lot of them seemed to be in favor of at least taking a look at it. We talked with our competition committee, and they were in favor of taking a look at it." The NBA will look how a 44-minute game impacts length of the game, player-substitution patterns and flow of the game to determine if there's a better experience. "Let's get some empirical evidence regarding this and take a fresh look at it," Thorn said. USA Today Sports

2)
Al Horford’s name will enter trade talks. It happened in stealth mode last season, when the Hawks reached out to a select group and made it known that Horford could be had for the right price — including an unprotected 2014 first-round pick, per several league sources. Nothing materialized, and Horford is ready to return from another torn pectoral muscle. A healthy Horford is a top-20 player on a below-market contract that runs through 2015-16 — long enough that some team could talk itself into gambling on him. He could net a hefty return for the Hawks, who have been happily skipping down the “pretty good with cap room” path under Danny Ferry. Grantland

[asudevil]

Gerald Green for Monroe?

who says no?

That's an easy "yes" from our end, I think. Not so much on Detroit's.

But even then, there's the whole "spacing" issue with Monroe, that many believe to be an issue. Me personally, I don't think it's that big enough of a deal to turn down having him as a starter. And Green is not going to start for us, but he could probably start for a handful of other teams, at least, IMO.

What about some sort of trade with McD's old mentor Ainge. Does Boston have anything we want in exchange for Ennis plus picks? I mean, they are likely to lose Rondo, and Ennis might come in handy, even though they just added Smart. Olynyk? Zeller? Sullinger?

I ask because unless Plumlee reverts back, he's looking, admittedly shocking to myself, not so good as of late. And with Len and his nagging little injuries, I wouldn't want to go an extended amount of time with Kieff as our starting 5.

The ONLY reason this is a yes is if the suns are not resigning Green. Monroe is a rental pure and simple. We CANNOT resign him. And at this point, i dont feel comfortable giving either Goodwin/Zoran extended minutes at the SG slot, nor do i see Warren as capable right now (not saying he wont be a starter by All-Star break).