The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[thamadkant]

JJ clearly guarded the other teams best player all season long... With the worst defending team in the league


Funny some suns fans selling out on JJ .... True colors come out.

With that said i would trade him for a Pick 2... But Sacramento wouldn't.... And JJ has a better rookie year than any Sun player since Amare

[Bob8]

Doncic would only win an NBA championship if he was third banana to 2 other players.


He's not LeBron level....
Or MJ or even Kobe...


He's Ginobili level so he needs the Spurs type structure ... Hide him defensively and use him as third option.



The eye test is obviously showing he will not get pass faster quicker players.... Not outjump more athletic wings... He's a facilotator, play maker..... And high IQ.... Only if he was an elite shooter or athlete would he reach levels required of a first or second option player.

and why he can’t be elite shooter? 3 pts% are not yet there, but almost all 3pts are off the dribble, step backs, many last seconds half court prayers. He’s elite in fouls drawing. And may I remind you, Harden is only 37% 3pt shooter too.

57.2% 2pt.
All combined, 61% TS.

[thamadkant]

Bob8 would you disappear from here if Suns don't pick Doncic


You have not posted anything that raise both negatives and positives for anyone else.. You only post positive best case stuff about Doncic...

[thamadkant]

You're a Doncic brochure ... Like selling a car to a customer

[MrMiyagi]

Bob8 would you disappear from here if Suns don't pick Doncic


You have not posted anything that raise both negatives and positives for anyone else.. You only post positive best case stuff about Doncic...

Oh, Bob8 is still around?

[thamadkant]

I would love it if McD actually trades back and get both JJJ and MPJ or Bamba

[MrMiyagi]

Am I the only one who has Wendell Carter over JJJ and Mo Bamba?

[Bob8]

I'm more open to Doncic but Ayton is still my preference

Same here. I respect the hell out of his accomplishments but don’t think he’s a superstar. I think he’s a slower Joe Johnson with the charisma to be more popular/likable.

29% from deep in the ACB. Yikes but how many of those were halfcourt heaves like some argue?

in Euroleague he’s shooting 35.3% without half court shots.

http://www.overbasket.com/rsplayers.php?tab=9&year=2017&pcode=005929&cmp=EL

The important context of his shooting is that almost all his shots are unassisted, of the dribble, stepbacks. Similar story like Young shooting 36%and JJJ 39%. Is JJJ better shooter because of that?

[lilfishi22]

Doncic would only win an NBA championship if he was third banana to 2 other players.


He's not LeBron level....
Or MJ or even Kobe...


He's Ginobili level so he needs the Spurs type structure ... Hide him defensively and use him as third option.



The eye test is obviously showing he will not get pass faster quicker players.... Not outjump more athletic wings... He's a facilotator, play maker..... And high IQ.... Only if he was an elite shooter or athlete would he reach levels required of a first or second option player.

and why he can’t be elite shooter? 3 pts% are not yet there, but almost all 3pts are off the dribble, step backs, many last seconds half court prayers. He’s elite in fouls drawing. And may I remind you, Harden is only 37% 3pt shooter too.

57.2% 2pt.
All combined, 61% TS.

TS% is a better metric for scoring efficiency. eFG% is better for measuring shooting proficiency.

Doncic - .534 career// .541 current season
Curry - .579 career// .618 current season
Durant - .539 career// .586 current season
Klay - .550 career// .585 current season
Harden - .503 career// .541 current season
Booker - .485 career// .501 current season

[Bob8]

Bob8 would you disappear from here if Suns don't pick Doncic


You have not posted anything that raise both negatives and positives for anyone else.. You only post positive best case stuff about Doncic...

TS% is best case stuff?

You’re missing something, I’m posting only facts and stats. If you don’t like it, they will still be there. The difference between Doncic and Ayton is that Doncic is 3rd year professional player, who has a lot to show. Ayton might be good sometime in the future, but he didn’t accomplish anything yet.

Yesterday I showed you how difficult is to be very productive in Euroleague and how (un)productive were ex. Nba players in the final, but you choose to ignore it and continue to explain how unimpressive is 15/4/3.

This is a battle between a player, who is already good, has incredible achievement and has won everything possible in Europe with 19 years. Otherr legends like Petrovic, Sabonis, Manu, Gasol...were even close. And a player, who has lost in first round of NCAA Tournament. Facts, accomplishments vs. imaginary picture of the future. I can understand that imagination looks more appealing, but the question is, how realistic is the best case scenario for Ayton?

I will continue to show how good Doncic is, with facts, stats, analysis, videos... If you don’t like it, ...

[Saberestar]

JJ clearly guarded the other teams best player all season long... With the worst defending team in the league


Funny some suns fans selling out on JJ .... True colors come out.

With that said i would trade him for a Pick 2... But Sacramento wouldn't.... And JJ has a better rookie year than any Sun player since Amare

I love Josh, but he was a negative player on defense all season long as a rookie.

Triano said several times that Josh is so much focused on his offense and not on his defense, and that he needs to change that and embrace defense.

I think that he has all the tools to be a great defender in the NBA, but he needs a big improvement.

That is why I would love to bring one verified perimeter defender to this roster. Someone that has shown already that he is a really good defender. Beverley or Bradley fits that.

[MrMiyagi]

Are we analyzing Ayton's defense wrong? Should we be comparing him more to wing prospects than big man prospects? Re-watching some of these games, I don't think I quite realized how often he's on the perimeter defending. While I'm not sold on him being an elite wing defender next level (he's not checking the opposing team's best ball-handler or perimeter player, mostly stretch bigs), I thought it'd be interesting to look at nonetheless.

Ayton
98.8 DRtg 2.1 DWS 4.0 DPM

Mikal Bridges
98.2 DRtg 2.4 DWS 4.4 DPM

Miles Bridges
95.5 DRtg 2.2 DWS 3.5 DPM

Zhaire Smith (a 6'4 guard, I know, but he's being touted as a perimeter defender)
95.1 DRtg 2.2 DWS 6.4 DPM

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
101.8 DRtg 1.9 DWS 3.6 DPM

Shake Milton
100.4 DRtg 1.3 DWS 1.4 DPM

Jacob Evans
88.3 DRtg 3.1 DWS 6.1 DPM

Jayson Tatum was put in a similar spot defensively as Ayton while he was at Duke.

Jayson Tatum
97.8 DRtg 1.8 DWS 4.1 DPM

[Mulhollanddrive]

Golden State Offensive Rating = 113

2PT = 112
3PT= 117
FT = 163
Turnovers = -15 per 100

Free throws are by far the most efficient scoring method especially if you can avoid turnovers while getting to the line, to illustrate every team would rank 30th in Offensive Rating without free throws.

Offensive Ratings of the top 5 players in Free Throw Rate with less than 3 TOs per 36:
Gobert 122
Len 121
Jordan 125
Adebayo 116
Grant 122

So to me there is still room for a big (Ayton) if he is able to play in the right way, uses his size to attack to the basket make the defense get physical and draw fouls without turning the ball over.

[Bob8]

Golden State Offensive Rating = 113

2PT = 112
3PT= 117
FT = 163
Turnovers = -15 per 100

Free throws are by far the most efficient scoring method especially if you can avoid turnovers while getting to the line, to illustrate every team would rank 30th in Offensive Rating without free throws.

Offensive Ratings of the top 5 players in Free Throw Rate with less than 3 TOs per 36:
Gobert 122
Len 121
Jordan 125
Adebayo 116
Grant 122

So to me there is still room for a big (Ayton) if he is able to play in the right way, uses his size to attack to the basket make the defense get physical and draw fouls without turning the ball over.

maybe interesting stats in that regard,
http://www.euroleague.net/main/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=E2017&cat=FreeThrowsAttempted&agg=PerGame

[Saberestar]

Golden State Offensive Rating = 113

2PT = 112
3PT= 117
FT = 163
Turnovers = -15 per 100

Free throws are by far the most efficient scoring method especially if you can avoid turnovers while getting to the line, to illustrate every team would rank 30th in Offensive Rating without free throws.

Offensive Ratings of the top 5 players in Free Throw Rate with less than 3 TOs per 36:
Gobert 122
Len 121
Jordan 125
Adebayo 116
Grant 122

So to me there is still room for a big (Ayton) if he is able to play in the right way, uses his size to attack to the basket make the defense get physical and draw fouls without turning the ball over.

maybe interesting stats in that regard,
http://www.euroleague.net/main/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=E2017&cat=FreeThrowsAttempted&agg=PerGame

It is ridiculos how bad are all the players that are "Top players" in the EuroLeague nowadays.

I do not think that list is something to be proud of. There are not even rotation players in the NBA in that list. But oh well, Doncic is 19 and he invented basketball...

I am interested in Shengelia as a backup or third string PF to replace Dudley if we can find a trade for him, but just because he is close to Kokoskov and he is in his prime right now.

[Bob8]

Golden State Offensive Rating = 113

2PT = 112
3PT= 117
FT = 163
Turnovers = -15 per 100

Free throws are by far the most efficient scoring method especially if you can avoid turnovers while getting to the line, to illustrate every team would rank 30th in Offensive Rating without free throws.

Offensive Ratings of the top 5 players in Free Throw Rate with less than 3 TOs per 36:
Gobert 122
Len 121
Jordan 125
Adebayo 116
Grant 122

So to me there is still room for a big (Ayton) if he is able to play in the right way, uses his size to attack to the basket make the defense get physical and draw fouls without turning the ball over.

maybe interesting stats in that regard,
http://www.euroleague.net/main/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=E2017&cat=FreeThrowsAttempted&agg=PerGame

It is ridiculos how bad are all the players that are "Top players" in the EuroLeague nowadays.

I do not think that list is something to be proud of. There are not even rotation players in the NBA in that list. But oh well, Doncic is 19 and he invented basketball...

I am interested in Shengelia as a backup or third string PF to replace Dudley if we can find a trade for him, but just because he is close to Kokoskov and he is in his prime right now.

Point of the list was to show that he is very good in drawing fouls, because Mulhollanddrive showed how important that is in Nba. He attempted 6 in only 26 minutes, Shved, who was solid player in Nba, was playing 32 minutes. But if you insist to talk about quality of players on this list, maybe you should show me a list of players Ayton has played against this year. How many players will even play professional basketball anywhere in the world? 5? Is my assumption that he dominated against much smaller kids than him, who will never play basketball for living correct? Against future lawyers, doctors, sales managers...

[Saberestar]

maybe interesting stats in that regard,
http://www.euroleague.net/main/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=E2017&cat=FreeThrowsAttempted&agg=PerGame

It is ridiculos how bad are all the players that are "Top players" in the EuroLeague nowadays.

I do not think that list is something to be proud of. There are not even rotation players in the NBA in that list. But oh well, Doncic is 19 and he invented basketball...

I am interested in Shengelia as a backup or third string PF to replace Dudley if we can find a trade for him, but just because he is close to Kokoskov and he is in his prime right now.

Point of the list was to show that he is very good in drawing fouls. He's drawing 6 in only 26 minutes, Shved, who was solid player in Nba, was playing 32 minutes. But if you insist to talk about quality of players on this list, maybe you should show me a list of players Ayton has played against this year. How many players will even play professional basketball anywhere in the world? 5?;) Is my assumption that he dominated against much smaller kids than him, who will never play basketball for living correct?

It is pretty obvious that there are more ELITE players with huge upside in the NCAA than in EuroLeague.

Just imagine the talent of a team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton.....no way EuroLeague players can match that.

[Bob8]

It is ridiculos how bad are all the players that are "Top players" in the EuroLeague nowadays.

I do not think that list is something to be proud of. There are not even rotation players in the NBA in that list. But oh well, Doncic is 19 and he invented basketball...

I am interested in Shengelia as a backup or third string PF to replace Dudley if we can find a trade for him, but just because he is close to Kokoskov and he is in his prime right now.

Point of the list was to show that he is very good in drawing fouls. He's drawing 6 in only 26 minutes, Shved, who was solid player in Nba, was playing 32 minutes. But if you insist to talk about quality of players on this list, maybe you should show me a list of players Ayton has played against this year. How many players will even play professional basketball anywhere in the world? 5?;) Is my assumption that he dominated against much smaller kids than him, who will never play basketball for living correct?

It is pretty obvious that there are more ELITE players with huge upside in the NCAA than in EuroLeague.

Just imagine the talent of a team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton.....no way EuroLeague players can match that.

Against who Ayton actually play this year?

[TheLogician]

Doncic has less athleticism than Ginobli and it will be harder for him to flop at 230 lbs. Easy to imagine him falling to the Mavs.

It would be the happiest Carslie and Dirk has been since winning the title 7 years ago.

Cuban probably buys them and himself the best hookers that money can buy if that happen.

He would be a good fit on the Mavs. It wouldn't surprise me if someone traded with the Grizzlies for him either. But he could also go behind the top front court players + MPJ.

[Saberestar]

Point of the list was to show that he is very good in drawing fouls. He's drawing 6 in only 26 minutes, Shved, who was solid player in Nba, was playing 32 minutes. But if you insist to talk about quality of players on this list, maybe you should show me a list of players Ayton has played against this year. How many players will even play professional basketball anywhere in the world? 5?;) Is my assumption that he dominated against much smaller kids than him, who will never play basketball for living correct?

It is pretty obvious that there are more ELITE players with huge upside in the NCAA than in EuroLeague.

Just imagine the talent of a team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton.....no way EuroLeague players can match that.

Against who Ayton actually play this year?

Ayton played in the NCAA against young players ...exactly like Anthony Davis, James Harden, Durant, Westbrook and practically all the greatest players in the NBA right now and in the past.

Yeah, it worked pretty well for all of them.