2021-22 Season Discussion and Speculation

[bwgood77]

Ayton had better offensive numbers playing with Rubio. The notion he's a by product of CP3 is laughable and maclearly shows the agenda of a few people here. KAT is a better offensive player obviously and still has not done squat while being two more years in the league and playing with multiple Nr 1 picks and a player like Butler. His shooting is not that valuable on this team, Ayton's D is certainly huge.

It's funny, being that Puff was going by stuff like PPG, etc, and also saying CP3 was the reason, Ayton put up more PPG before CP3 when Rubio was here and he was a focal point of scoring. His efficiency has improved now though.

I'd be happy to have KAT.

But Ayton is probably more important to our team than many think.

People assume all those back him want to give him the max. I don't think he is quite worth it. Though Book wasn't either. They will need to come up with a good deal for him or match one then. I think they should try to avoid matching one so he doesn't have some sort of out in 3 years though. You may have to give him a good deal just to lock him up for 5 years.

If other teams think he's worth the max, then he will have trade value anyway, and it will be far higher if he's locked up for 5 years than if he has an out after 3.

With a rising cap, more money wouldn't be a big deal. I think if he won't take like 5/$135 they should just offer him what Booker got. I think if they phrase it right "We will give you exactly what we gave Book" it should make him feel valued, even in relative terms it's not nearly as much money when you consider increase in cap or ''nba inflation" and is a lot less relatively speaking than Booker got when he got it.

The point I am trying to make is that what Ayton brings does not deserve the max. For that matter I do not think any of the bigs in the league are worth the max that includes Embiid.

I agree that Ayton isn't worth the max. I never said he was. Though I don't think anyone on our team is. But I also wouldn't let Ayton walk for nothing or trade him for nickels on the dollar. If I knew multiple teams would pay him the max and I thought he was a solid piece I'd pay him and trade him later. You keep using the "use max money elsewhere" but you can't let him walk and gain back cap space...you just reduce the amount you are over the cap when in a position like us.

About your list of players...every NBA champion typically has a top 5 or 10 player or maybe two.

Duncan was for all intents and purposes, a C. He just didn't want to be called a C because he would have never started an all star game or been 1st team all NBA because Shaq was in the west.

The best players come in all different packages and pigeoholing them into a position is weird. What is Giannis really? A big? A wing? A PF?

But regardless, we are not winning a championship unless we have a few top tier players since we don't have some mega star. Players with clear roles.

But it would be nice if they all would take less than the max.

[bwgood77]

I think with the way Paul is playing this year, if we have a chance to trade Ayton for an upgrade we have to do it. Paul is playing the best basketball he has in a couple years. It's really astounding. He's better than Nash was in 2010. Looks like he's gotten his sleight of hand back too with all these steals he's picking up.

yep… Ayton for a star power forward makes the most sense.

edit: Tatum at PF or Sabonis.

Tatum or Sabonis wouldn't be traded for anyone on our team. Those guy were selected all stars.

[bwgood77]

Trading Ayton would have to be done soon...I don't want to do it but with the Suns winning without him his trade value is dropping by the day...I still want to keep him because he's so young and has tremendous upside...but IF Jones wants to pull that trigger you do it now or not at all

I doubt anyone (particularly real NBA execs/analysts) is looking at us aside from a few of our own fans and saying "Look, the Suns beat the Rockets, Pelicans and Kings without Ayton...he's not as good as I thought." Particularly given he just turned 23 and was the defensive key for us in the playoffs against some all star bigs.

[bwgood77]

IF the Wolves continues losing games I think that Towns will ask for a trade before the deadline.

Just watch this...

Read on Twitter

Does the fact that he would walk like that down the court while his team had the ball make you antsy to get him on our team?

I kind of doubt they will trade him.

Our offense would be fun to watch with him. I just don't really see them trading him. Not after desperately trying to get his buddy DLo there. They have barely played together.

He could ask out but it usually doesn't come until there are 2 years or less left on their deal. But if he does make it clear that he wants out, they might think Ayton and pieces is nice to pair with Ant who will be on a rookie contract for awhile so easier to pay Ayton.

For those who don't think C's are worth the max though, KAT makes it and will likely require a max on his next deal. I imagine Booker will too.

Could be a fun team. I could see us being a lower seed and possibly make it to the 2nd round a couple times over the next 5-7 years or so.

KAT and Book don't feel like a championship pair. I know they played in college on a great team that went rolling into the tourney...that is until they ran into Frank the Tank and their perfect season ended.

I think we could have a shot at going all the way again if CP3 is healthy, but that's the difference between making a run and being a first round exit...but he won't be here for long.

[WeekapaugGroove]

So you want to pay a Center that plays defense $192 million dollars over 5 years?

You see this team without him. McGee and Frank are putting up Ayton numbers every game.

I love Ayton, and if Jones pays him, I'm ok with it. But I would happily move him for KAT, even if it means giving up Cam J. I don't think we will be able to afford Cam Johnson anyway when they time comes. Espeically if we pay Ayton a max.

Ayton, Cam J, Saric, and a future pick or Jalen Smith for KAT. Good trade for both teams.

That team gets demolished by the Warriors in 5 games.

Curry switches to KAT every time down the floor and gets whatever he wants.

Wasn't KAT considered an excellent defender in his first couple years in the league? Above average? You don't think in our program he can LEARN how to be a good defender, like our entire team has learned. Even Booker? Ayton was not good a couple years ago. He has gradually become an excellent defender.

He was considered a good defensive prospect but I don't think he's ever actually been a good defensive player since he's entered the league. Now it wouldn't shock me if he played better d if he was on a good team.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

That team gets demolished by the Warriors in 5 games.

Curry switches to KAT every time down the floor and gets whatever he wants.

Wasn't KAT considered an excellent defender in his first couple years in the league? Above average? You don't think in our program he can LEARN how to be a good defender, like our entire team has learned. Even Booker? Ayton was not good a couple years ago. He has gradually become an excellent defender.

He was considered a good defensive prospect but I don't think he's ever actually been a good defensive player since he's entered the league. Now it wouldn't shock me if he played better d if he was on a good team.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app

Maybe he just needs a coach like Thibs and a teammate like Jimmy Butler to light a fire under him.

[Puff]

I don't really know where the Ayton/KAT talks originated from but I'll weigh in. Ayton has much better lateral quickness than KAT and that allows him to defend on the switch much more competently but I do think KAT's poor defense is at least partially due to the Wolves not playing much defense as a team. Booker went through a similar phase and he was NEVER a good defender until this pats season or so when he put in effort and focus on that end. KAT at least was somewhat of a decent defender early onwards which tells me he could get back to that level at minimum.

So question is whether to trade Ayton (plus others) for KAT and I'll be honest, I think our offense would be incredible with KAT. Pairing a top 3 SG with a top 3 C alongside a top 5 PG and a bunch of solid supporting pieces is a helluva combination. I get that Ayton's defense was big time for us and I don't at all want to diminish how much of an impact he was but I do wonder how far we could've gotten if other teams were healthier. If AD was closer to 100%, if Murray was paying, if Kawhi was playing...I do feel like we lacked the firepower and fell apart when Book wasn't getting his points.

Booker for the most part, will get his points but for as good as CP3 was on the passing end for us, we don't really talk as much about how big of a load CP3 was taking on scoring the ball for us. Granted, CP3 looked good and was efficient for us but is that something to rely on? Do we expect him to be our 20-25ppg scorer in a playoff series alongside Book? The problem I see here is that we have a significant drop off in offensive talent after CP3 and Book. Bridges COULD be that 3rd guy but I still don't have great confidence in him yet. Ayton looks like he's still a few seasons away from taking on that role as that 2nd/3rd option. It's still very much a question mark where we're getting that 3rd scorer. You could argue that 3rd scorer is a combination of Ayton/Bridges/Cam/Cam in the playoffs, you sort of need a reliable 3rd guy.

I feel like KAT makes a lot of sense if we're looking to win in that CP3 window and continuing into the future. KAT can create his own shot, he can play within a system shooting 3's, he can play in the PnR. He's basically the perfect offensive big man on a team that loves ball movement, loves finding the open man and loves floor spacing allowing Book/CP3 to do what they want in the paint. I love what I've seen from Ayton defensively and he could still be a 20ppg scorer but I just don't see him get there as long as CP3 is here because of the way we play and what we ask of him.

The question around the defense is probably the biggest hold up for me. Sample size is still very much too small to come to any sort of conclusion but we're holding our own so far defensively without Ayton. Different situation than in the playoffs and having Ayton on guys like AD, Jokic, Zubac and even Giannis was a key reason we got as far as we did but how much do we lose in defense vs how much more do we gain on offense with KAT? I think a motivated KAT is perhaps a tier or so below Ayton defensively but he's several tiers better an offensive player.

Ayton had an amazing playoff run and I don't want to take anything away from him but if I was to play hypotheticals, how far do we go in the playoffs if even one of AD, Kawhi or Murray was healthy? Do we even win more than one game if Giannis was 100%? What do we have to counter that extra all-NBA level offensive output?

The only way we end up with KAT is for him to force his way out of Minnesota. I would not give up any more than Ayton in a sign and trade for him and not until this summer. I really do not want to move Ayton this season. If he can reinforce what he did in the playoffs + some improvements on the offensive end who knows he could convince everyone he is worth the max. I do not think that will happen. I would sign him to a sizable contract this summer, something less than the max, or move him for another player with the ability to be part of a Big 3 for our team.

If Mikal can continue to improve on the offensive end, we may already have a Big 3 in CP3, Booker and Mikal. I want no part Lillard on this team. No matter what happens with Ayton I certainly hope that we keep both Frank and McGee for next season.

The reason that I suggest the the center position is really not as important as Shaq makes it out to be is that there are some historic teams that really had guys at the center position that played defense, rebounded and never made an All Star Team.

My favorite team of all time was the 1974-75 Warriors. They had George Johnson and Clifford Ray and 12 fouls at the center position. Neither of them could make a shot outside of 10 ft but they both played great defense. They beat the crap out of everyone. They would have been even better if Rick Barry was not such a cry baby. I lived in the Bay Area at the time and was able to sit 3 rows up center court at several games. They were fantastic.

Who played center on the 6 Championship Teams for Michael Jordan? Who was the center on each of Lebron's Championships?

You do not need a max center to win a Championship. That includes KAT. However you better be dynamic at the 1 thru 4. The Suns need to channel their resources into making sure we have the best players possible at those positions. We are pretty damn good at the 1-4 but we need to be better. If Cam Johnson can get some consistency to his game that would be great. He is my biggest disappointment this season and we also currently do not have a replacement for CP3 going forward. We are solid at the 2 and 3 for several years to come.

I hope Ayton is able to play against KAT tonight.

[bwgood77]

I agree you do not need a great C when you have Michael Jordan. Or LeBron James.

I don't think great Cs are imperative at all.

I don't think great PGs are imperative at all.

I don't think great SGs are imperative at all

I don't think great SFs are imperative at all.

I don't think great PFs are imperative at all.

You need a few great players. It doesn't matter the position as long as they complement one another well. It CAN be C as we've seen on many teams. Or PG. Or SG. Or SF, etc.

[Sunsdeuce]

I don't really know where the Ayton/KAT talks originated from but I'll weigh in. Ayton has much better lateral quickness than KAT and that allows him to defend on the switch much more competently but I do think KAT's poor defense is at least partially due to the Wolves not playing much defense as a team. Booker went through a similar phase and he was NEVER a good defender until this pats season or so when he put in effort and focus on that end. KAT at least was somewhat of a decent defender early onwards which tells me he could get back to that level at minimum.

So question is whether to trade Ayton (plus others) for KAT and I'll be honest, I think our offense would be incredible with KAT. Pairing a top 3 SG with a top 3 C alongside a top 5 PG and a bunch of solid supporting pieces is a helluva combination. I get that Ayton's defense was big time for us and I don't at all want to diminish how much of an impact he was but I do wonder how far we could've gotten if other teams were healthier. If AD was closer to 100%, if Murray was paying, if Kawhi was playing...I do feel like we lacked the firepower and fell apart when Book wasn't getting his points.

Booker for the most part, will get his points but for as good as CP3 was on the passing end for us, we don't really talk as much about how big of a load CP3 was taking on scoring the ball for us. Granted, CP3 looked good and was efficient for us but is that something to rely on? Do we expect him to be our 20-25ppg scorer in a playoff series alongside Book? The problem I see here is that we have a significant drop off in offensive talent after CP3 and Book. Bridges COULD be that 3rd guy but I still don't have great confidence in him yet. Ayton looks like he's still a few seasons away from taking on that role as that 2nd/3rd option. It's still very much a question mark where we're getting that 3rd scorer. You could argue that 3rd scorer is a combination of Ayton/Bridges/Cam/Cam in the playoffs, you sort of need a reliable 3rd guy.

I feel like KAT makes a lot of sense if we're looking to win in that CP3 window and continuing into the future. KAT can create his own shot, he can play within a system shooting 3's, he can play in the PnR. He's basically the perfect offensive big man on a team that loves ball movement, loves finding the open man and loves floor spacing allowing Book/CP3 to do what they want in the paint. I love what I've seen from Ayton defensively and he could still be a 20ppg scorer but I just don't see him get there as long as CP3 is here because of the way we play and what we ask of him.

The question around the defense is probably the biggest hold up for me. Sample size is still very much too small to come to any sort of conclusion but we're holding our own so far defensively without Ayton. Different situation than in the playoffs and having Ayton on guys like AD, Jokic, Zubac and even Giannis was a key reason we got as far as we did but how much do we lose in defense vs how much more do we gain on offense with KAT? I think a motivated KAT is perhaps a tier or so below Ayton defensively but he's several tiers better an offensive player.

Ayton had an amazing playoff run and I don't want to take anything away from him but if I was to play hypotheticals, how far do we go in the playoffs if even one of AD, Kawhi or Murray was healthy? Do we even win more than one game if Giannis was 100%? What do we have to counter that extra all-NBA level offensive output?

The only way we end up with KAT is for him to force his way out of Minnesota. I would not give up any more than Ayton in a sign and trade for him and not until this summer. I really do not want to move Ayton this season. If he can reinforce what he did in the playoffs + some improvements on the offensive end who knows he could convince everyone he is worth the max. I do not think that will happen. I would sign him to a sizable contract this summer, something less than the max, or move him for another player with the ability to be part of a Big 3 for our team.

If Mikal can continue to improve on the offensive end, we may already have a Big 3 in CP3, Booker and Mikal. I want no part Lillard on this team. No matter what happens with Ayton I certainly hope that we keep both Frank and McGee for next season.

The reason that I suggest the the center position is really not as important as Shaq makes it out to be is that there are some historic teams that really had guys at the center position that played defense, rebounded and never made an All Star Team.

My favorite team of all time was the 1974-75 Warriors. They had George Johnson and Clifford Ray and 12 fouls at the center position. Neither of them could make a shot outside of 10 ft but they both played great defense. They beat the crap out of everyone. They would have been even better if Rick Barry was not such a cry baby. I lived in the Bay Area at the time and was able to sit 3 rows up center court at several games. They were fantastic.

Who played center on the 6 Championship Teams for Michael Jordan? Who was the center on each of Lebron's Championships?

You do not need a max center to win a Championship. That includes KAT. However you better be dynamic at the 1 thru 4. The Suns need to channel their resources into making sure we have the best players possible at those positions. We are pretty damn good at the 1-4 but we need to be better. If Cam Johnson can get some consistency to his game that would be great. He is my biggest disappointment this season and we also currently do not have a replacement for CP3 going forward. We are solid at the 2 and 3 for several years to come.

I hope Ayton is able to play against KAT tonight.

Teams that won Championships with HOF centers over the last 30 years.
Spurs -Duncan (Dynasty)
Lakers- Shaq (Dynasty)
Miami- Shaq
Houston-Hakeem

MJ is the greatest ever to play in the NBA by a wide margin. So he can win with anyone. Plus he had some really good power forwards when he won. Rodman and Horace Grant were quality Power Forwards.

Lebron won with quality bigs. AD is center/PF but is a natural center and carried Lebron. Bosh was a top Power forward.

Bigs are important part of basketball.

Bucks just won playing two bigs in the playoffs shooting the worst 3% of any playoff team.

Cam Johnson is not a power forward and gets abused by real power forwards. Not to mention he is a career role player (did I mention he has not having a good year).

Quality/All-Star forwards and Centers are the key to any championship team. No team has ever won without an All-Star Center or All-Star power Forward.

No rebounds, no rings.

[sunskerr]

Teams that won Championships with HOF centers over the last 30 years.
Spurs -Duncan (Dynasty)
Lakers- Shaq (Dynasty)
Miami- Shaq
Houston-Hakeem

MJ is the greatest ever to play in the NBA by a wide margin. So he can win with anyone. Plus he had some really good power forwards when he won. Rodman and Horace Grant were quality Power Forwards.

Lebron won with quality bigs. AD is center/PF but is a natural center and carried Lebron. Bosh was a top Power forward.

Bigs are important part of basketball.

Bucks just won playing two bigs in the playoffs shooting the worst 3% of any playoff team.

Cam Johnson is not a power forward and gets abused by real power forwards. Not to mention he is a career role player (did I mention he has not having a good year).

Quality/All-Star forwards and Centers are the key to any championship team. No team has ever won without an All-Star Center or All-Star power Forward.

No rebounds, no rings.

I don't buy the whole centers/bigs can't win a ring argument. Talent is talent at any position. But if we want to be realistic, the Warriors came out and won with Draymond playing a very nontraditional PF style that was more like a wing, and the Cavs won with Kevin Love basically becoming a role player, taking a spot up shooter role as LeBron and Kyrie did their thing. Those are the teams that we are similar to right now with our perimeter-based passing/shooting and defensive switchability.

As for the Bucks, clearly Giannis is not a traditional forward, and has a significant amount of his production come from playing as a wing. He did adjust correctly against us and started working off ball in the post more, but he is a generational talent anyway.

The front office has already recognized the issue of paying Ayton a max contract for what he brings. It's just a matter of whether or not the situation requires us to do so i.e. there are no acceptable replacements or upgrades for him in terms of production (at any position). It becomes less about production per dollar at this point because we are trying to win with Chris Paul so to come out with a player whose production per dollar is greater than Ayton, but their production by itself is less than Ayton's, is an overall loss in the grand scheme of things.

[lilfishi22]

I don't really know where the Ayton/KAT talks originated from but I'll weigh in. Ayton has much better lateral quickness than KAT and that allows him to defend on the switch much more competently but I do think KAT's poor defense is at least partially due to the Wolves not playing much defense as a team. Booker went through a similar phase and he was NEVER a good defender until this pats season or so when he put in effort and focus on that end. KAT at least was somewhat of a decent defender early onwards which tells me he could get back to that level at minimum.

So question is whether to trade Ayton (plus others) for KAT and I'll be honest, I think our offense would be incredible with KAT. Pairing a top 3 SG with a top 3 C alongside a top 5 PG and a bunch of solid supporting pieces is a helluva combination. I get that Ayton's defense was big time for us and I don't at all want to diminish how much of an impact he was but I do wonder how far we could've gotten if other teams were healthier. If AD was closer to 100%, if Murray was paying, if Kawhi was playing...I do feel like we lacked the firepower and fell apart when Book wasn't getting his points.

Booker for the most part, will get his points but for as good as CP3 was on the passing end for us, we don't really talk as much about how big of a load CP3 was taking on scoring the ball for us. Granted, CP3 looked good and was efficient for us but is that something to rely on? Do we expect him to be our 20-25ppg scorer in a playoff series alongside Book? The problem I see here is that we have a significant drop off in offensive talent after CP3 and Book. Bridges COULD be that 3rd guy but I still don't have great confidence in him yet. Ayton looks like he's still a few seasons away from taking on that role as that 2nd/3rd option. It's still very much a question mark where we're getting that 3rd scorer. You could argue that 3rd scorer is a combination of Ayton/Bridges/Cam/Cam in the playoffs, you sort of need a reliable 3rd guy.

I feel like KAT makes a lot of sense if we're looking to win in that CP3 window and continuing into the future. KAT can create his own shot, he can play within a system shooting 3's, he can play in the PnR. He's basically the perfect offensive big man on a team that loves ball movement, loves finding the open man and loves floor spacing allowing Book/CP3 to do what they want in the paint. I love what I've seen from Ayton defensively and he could still be a 20ppg scorer but I just don't see him get there as long as CP3 is here because of the way we play and what we ask of him.

The question around the defense is probably the biggest hold up for me. Sample size is still very much too small to come to any sort of conclusion but we're holding our own so far defensively without Ayton. Different situation than in the playoffs and having Ayton on guys like AD, Jokic, Zubac and even Giannis was a key reason we got as far as we did but how much do we lose in defense vs how much more do we gain on offense with KAT? I think a motivated KAT is perhaps a tier or so below Ayton defensively but he's several tiers better an offensive player.

Ayton had an amazing playoff run and I don't want to take anything away from him but if I was to play hypotheticals, how far do we go in the playoffs if even one of AD, Kawhi or Murray was healthy? Do we even win more than one game if Giannis was 100%? What do we have to counter that extra all-NBA level offensive output?

The only way we end up with KAT is for him to force his way out of Minnesota. I would not give up any more than Ayton in a sign and trade for him and not until this summer. I really do not want to move Ayton this season. If he can reinforce what he did in the playoffs + some improvements on the offensive end who knows he could convince everyone he is worth the max. I do not think that will happen. I would sign him to a sizable contract this summer, something less than the max, or move him for another player with the ability to be part of a Big 3 for our team.

If Mikal can continue to improve on the offensive end, we may already have a Big 3 in CP3, Booker and Mikal. I want no part Lillard on this team. No matter what happens with Ayton I certainly hope that we keep both Frank and McGee for next season.

The reason that I suggest the the center position is really not as important as Shaq makes it out to be is that there are some historic teams that really had guys at the center position that played defense, rebounded and never made an All Star Team.

My favorite team of all time was the 1974-75 Warriors. They had George Johnson and Clifford Ray and 12 fouls at the center position. Neither of them could make a shot outside of 10 ft but they both played great defense. They beat the crap out of everyone. They would have been even better if Rick Barry was not such a cry baby. I lived in the Bay Area at the time and was able to sit 3 rows up center court at several games. They were fantastic.

Who played center on the 6 Championship Teams for Michael Jordan? Who was the center on each of Lebron's Championships?

You do not need a max center to win a Championship. That includes KAT. However you better be dynamic at the 1 thru 4. The Suns need to channel their resources into making sure we have the best players possible at those positions. We are pretty damn good at the 1-4 but we need to be better. If Cam Johnson can get some consistency to his game that would be great. He is my biggest disappointment this season and we also currently do not have a replacement for CP3 going forward. We are solid at the 2 and 3 for several years to come.

I hope Ayton is able to play against KAT tonight.

You don't need a max (insert position) to win a championship but I do think you need at least 2 all-NBA level guys to put yourself in that conversation. Book is pretty close if he's not already there, CP3 has been an all-NBA guy for basically his whole career but the concern I have is the load we're putting on CP3 at his age. He can still perform and he's playing some of his best basketball but I just don't know whether we're asking too much of him offensively as we get into the playoffs. He turns 37 in the playoffs and while he certainly hasn't played like a 36 year old, you certainly want to maximise him without stretching him too thin.

I agree that Mikal could be that next dude who could give us 18-20ppg but he's just not reliable at the moment. He could certainly do more and I don't know if it's scheme or mindset but he just doesn't really deviate too much from the efficient floor running, cutting and corner 3's he takes. We need more dynamic offense outside of Book and CP3 is my main point. That's where KAT comes in. I honestly think the argument against a talented max center is as good as for one, especially when it comes to KAT.

My mentality is that Ayton isn't an all-NBA level guy (possibly all-defense though) and if an opportunity presents itself, you really have to think hard why you wouldn't do it.

[lilfishi22]

Teams that won Championships with HOF centers over the last 30 years.
Spurs -Duncan (Dynasty)
Lakers- Shaq (Dynasty)
Miami- Shaq
Houston-Hakeem

MJ is the greatest ever to play in the NBA by a wide margin. So he can win with anyone. Plus he had some really good power forwards when he won. Rodman and Horace Grant were quality Power Forwards.

Lebron won with quality bigs. AD is center/PF but is a natural center and carried Lebron. Bosh was a top Power forward.

Bigs are important part of basketball.

Bucks just won playing two bigs in the playoffs shooting the worst 3% of any playoff team.

Cam Johnson is not a power forward and gets abused by real power forwards. Not to mention he is a career role player (did I mention he has not having a good year).

Quality/All-Star forwards and Centers are the key to any championship team. No team has ever won without an All-Star Center or All-Star power Forward.

No rebounds, no rings.

I don't buy the whole centers/bigs can't win a ring argument. Talent is talent at any position. But if we want to be realistic, the Warriors came out and won with Draymond playing a very nontraditional PF style that was more like a wing, and the Cavs won with Kevin Love basically becoming a role player, taking a spot up shooter role as LeBron and Kyrie did their thing. Those are the teams that we are similar to right now with our perimeter-based passing/shooting and defensive switchability.

As for the Bucks, clearly Giannis is not a traditional forward, and has a significant amount of his production come from playing as a wing. He did adjust correctly against us and started working off ball in the post more, but he is a generational talent anyway.

The front office has already recognized the issue of paying Ayton a max contract for what he brings. It's just a matter of whether or not the situation requires us to do so i.e. there are no acceptable replacements or upgrades for him in terms of production (at any position). It becomes less about production per dollar at this point because we are trying to win with Chris Paul so to come out with a player whose production per dollar is greater than Ayton, but their production by itself is less than Ayton's, is an overall loss in the grand scheme of things.

Pretty much

[bigfoot]

Teams that won Championships with HOF centers over the last 30 years.
Spurs -Duncan (Dynasty)
Lakers- Shaq (Dynasty)
Miami- Shaq
Houston-Hakeem

MJ is the greatest ever to play in the NBA by a wide margin. So he can win with anyone. Plus he had some really good power forwards when he won. Rodman and Horace Grant were quality Power Forwards.

Lebron won with quality bigs. AD is center/PF but is a natural center and carried Lebron. Bosh was a top Power forward.

Bigs are important part of basketball.

Bucks just won playing two bigs in the playoffs shooting the worst 3% of any playoff team.

Cam Johnson is not a power forward and gets abused by real power forwards. Not to mention he is a career role player (did I mention he has not having a good year).

Quality/All-Star forwards and Centers are the key to any championship team. No team has ever won without an All-Star Center or All-Star power Forward.

No rebounds, no rings.

Laughable ... The centers you listed were offensive juggernauts, Ayton is nowhere near nor will ever be near their level on the offensive side of the ball. Also, none of those players was involved in the modern-day analytics movement where three-point shots were critical. People living in the past ...

[cberry78]

Both DA and KAT are top 5 Cs in the league, which one do you think is willing to be a second, third....fourth(?) option on an NBA Championship contending team?

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[lilfishi22]

Both DA and KAT are top 5 Cs in the league, which one do you think is willing to be a second, third....fourth(?) option on an NBA Championship contending team?

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DA is a little too comfortable being the 4th option and opportunistically a 3rd option.

Don't think it matters too much for KAT as long as he's competing and winning.

[bwgood77]

Both DA and KAT are top 5 Cs in the league, which one do you think is willing to be a second, third....fourth(?) option on an NBA Championship contending team?

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DA is a little too comfortable being the 4th option and opportunistically a 3rd option.

Don't think it matters too much for KAT as long as he's competing and winning.

It would be interesting to see if KAT was willing to take a back seat to Book when he is the more elite talent who's been voted into 2 all star games, been all NBA, was the star on their college team while Book was a reserve, etc.

I think the main thing is, and it really should be more clear than I think it is, is that CP3 took this team about 4 levels up.

Our biggest challenge in a post CP3 world is replacing the competitive will but also the ability to consistently deliver at the highest level and lead a team into the playoffs to compete hard in playoff series, particularly getting other involved and going.

If we are going to even come close to being a 2nd round playoff team post Paul we will need either Book, Ayton or Bridges to take massive steps.

I have always maintained where I think Bridges can get, though I know many are not high on him, though he keeps se getting better and better, adding more and more to his game. Ayton has missed about half the season so far so it's really hard to judge if he's taken further steps forward this year or not. I just think you need a bigger sample size. But he's still only a ripe 23 too so I think he's got a ways up.

Not sure what's wrong with Book this year. His 2pt% and game took a huge jump after his 3rd year, but it tanked this year back to where it was in his 3rd year.

His overall efficiency and TS% so far is the worst it's been in his career. His FT shooting has dropped to about his career low (though still fairly solid at 84%).

The plus side is his assists are back up a bit and his turnover % is a low. His steals are at a high though and his defense is still a bit better.

Cam Johnson has been kind of disappointing too. Shamet hasn't shown too much.

It's really kind of amazing we are 10-3. Chris Paul is pretty friggin amazing.

[lilfishi22]

Both DA and KAT are top 5 Cs in the league, which one do you think is willing to be a second, third....fourth(?) option on an NBA Championship contending team?

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

DA is a little too comfortable being the 4th option and opportunistically a 3rd option.

Don't think it matters too much for KAT as long as he's competing and winning.

It would be interesting to see if KAT was willing to take a back seat to Book when he is the more elite talent who's been voted into 2 all star games, been all NBA, was the star on their college team while Book was a reserve, etc.

I think the main thing is, and it really should be more clear than I think it is, is that CP3 took this team about 4 levels up.

Our biggest challenge in a post CP3 world is replacing the competitive will but also the ability to consistently deliver at the highest level and lead a team into the playoffs to compete hard in playoff series, particularly getting other involved and going.

If we are going to even come close to being a 2nd round playoff team post Paul we will need either Book, Ayton or Bridges to take massive steps.

I have always maintained where I think Bridges can get, though I know many are not high on him, though he keeps se getting better and better, adding more and more to his game. Ayton has missed about half the season so far so it's really hard to judge if he's taken further steps forward this year or not. I just think you need a bigger sample size. But he's still only a ripe 23 too so I think he's got a ways up.

Not sure what's wrong with Book this year. His 2pt% and game took a huge jump after his 3rd year, but it tanked this year back to where it was in his 3rd year.

His overall efficiency and TS% so far is the worst it's been in his career. His FT shooting has dropped to about his career low (though still fairly solid at 84%).

The plus side is his assists are back up a bit and his turnover % is a low. His steals are at a high though and his defense is still a bit better.

Cam Johnson has been kind of disappointing too. Shamet hasn't shown too much.

It's really kind of amazing we are 10-3. Chris Paul is pretty friggin amazing.

I never really got the impression that KAT had a massive ego and needed to be THE man on his team. There was that whole thing with Butler and CP3 can rub people the wrong way in a similar fashion to Butler so that could be a point of contention. However, I really think KAT just wants to be in a winning situation where he could just be the 1B to Book's 1A and CP3 is way more of an enabler than Butler so I think it should be fine.

I had pretty high hopes and expectations of Bridges this season but he hasn't quite taken the big step I was expecting so far. He's doing a bit more and scoring a bit more on elite efficiency but I don't get the impression that he wants to really take those reigns and be that 3rd guy when he *could* be. I think before the season began, I saw Bridges as a 16-18ppg guy with some added offensive skills. He's flashed that player I expected him to be but he hasn't really been that guy. Ayton...I dunno he COULD be so much more but like Bridges, he hasn't seemed to want to take the reigns either. I'm sure everyone, including the Suns team are hoping someone would just step up and be that 3rd guy but whether it's a lack of skill, lack of urgency or lack of desire, that third guy hasn't really emerged (yet).

CP3's window is a short one and to me, KAT solves a lot of that talent gap that we have now and in to the future. The league has a good amount of above average PG's so while I don't think we'll get a CP3 level PG, I think you could probably find someone decent slot in there once CP3's time with the Suns is done. The issue is who is going to be that all-NBA guy to lead the Suns alongside Book? I don't really see anyone with that potential unfortunately.

Also agree on the Cam and Shamet point. I had high hopes for Cam and Shamet too but they've both been pretty pedestrian so far...Cam isn't hitting his shots at a high clip and Shamet has just been inconsistent as hell. What sucks even more is that Crowder has been pretty crap as well and I really hoped Cam would show enough to pressure Crowder for that starting spot. All pretty frustrating. At least we're winning I suppose

[Qwigglez]

I'm in agreement with pretty much everything that lilfishi22 has been saying in regards to KAT and DA. A lot of comments about KAT playing no defense and empty stats is similar comments to what was said about Booker prior to CP3 getting to Phoenix. I think being put in a winning situation or having that winning culture would change how KAT plays overall.

[Mulhollanddrive]

As long as Paul is a top 15 player I think Ayton is more valuable to us than Towns.

When we need to replace Paul there are free agents in 2-3 years like LeBron, Lillard, Harden.

[Puff]

I agree you do not need a great C when you have Michael Jordan. Or LeBron James.

I don't think great Cs are imperative at all.

I don't think great PGs are imperative at all.

I don't think great SGs are imperative at all

I don't think great SFs are imperative at all.

I don't think great PFs are imperative at all.

You need a few great players. It doesn't matter the position as long as they complement one another well. It CAN be C as we've seen on many teams. Or PG. Or SG. Or SF, etc.