Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[AtheJ415]

If we get Kryie I'd rather not pursue Cousins in free agency. Actually I'd rather not pursue him either way, but if we have high usage/no defense in the backcourt why should we invest in a high usage/no defense center?

Because he's the only star available who has a realistic shot of heading our way (we aren't getting Lebron or PG) in next year's class, is still a superstar at a position of need, is the best big man in basketball in terms of talent (so there is still upside there), and we don't have to trade anything to get him.

I suppose you could go after somebody like Deandre Jordan, but I don't care who else is on the team, Deandre isn't better than Cousins, and he will likely cost nearly as much.

I suppose you could wait another year, but then you have 2 years of losing while Kyrie is here and are then holding your breath he re-signs, and with Chandler and Dudley gone, if the roster is managed well (no unneccesary money spent, team options for flexibility), could afford another max guy then anyways.

[LukasBMW]

Cleveland has no choice but to trade him to us

Nobody else will give them anything better than Bledsoe and fillers

Totally agree.

I don't even want to give up TJ.

Bledsoe, filler, Miami 2018.

We even take back bad contract if they want to dump them.

[dremill24]

Hmmmm...... been listening to Gambo for 47 minutes and nothing on the trade so far, not coming up in the next segment either. I wonder why?

He made a very definitive claim last week that there would be no deal of Kyrie to the Suns. At this point he'd be admitting he was wrong if he continued to speculate, which we know he just can't do. If it does go down, he'll backtrack on what he said and split hairs about his terminology

[DirtyDez]

Cleveland has no choice but to trade him to us

Nobody else will give them anything better than Bledsoe and fillers

Our biggest competition is Cleveland keeping him.

[BobbieL]

Cleveland has no choice but to trade him to us

Nobody else will give them anything better than Bledsoe and fillers

Our biggest competition is Cleveland keeping him.

Unless Denver comes up with Jamal Murray - I agree, Cleveland is the biggest competition. Maybe they won't feel like Bledsoe Warren/Chriss, Miamis pick , Dudley for Shumpert, Frye and Kyrie is enough

As far as teams, the only other team is the Knicks and that would probably be a three way deal with the Suns getting Frank N, plus cap filler. Melo doesn't want to go to Cleveland now

Minnesota not offering Wiggins is a huge deal because they are probably out

Same trade as always
Bledsoe, the Heat pick (don't even offer a protected Suns pick unless top 10), Chriss or Warren - plus probably Dudley or Chandler for Kyrie, Frye, Shumpert and possibly RJ.

Pretty much the best the Cavs will get at this point I am guessing. So its their choice.

[BobbieL]

Hmmmm...... been listening to Gambo for 47 minutes and nothing on the trade so far, not coming up in the next segment either. I wonder why?

He made a very definitive claim last week that there would be no deal of Kyrie to the Suns. At this point he'd be admitting he was wrong if he continued to speculate, which we know he just can't do. If it does go down, he'll backtrack on what he said and split hairs about his terminology

thankfully they had a segment on Steve Bartman getting a ring from the Cubs

and Gambo being jerky about - "why does he need a ring? just apologize? He doesn't need a ring!!"

[Saberestar]

Hmmmm...... been listening to Gambo for 47 minutes and nothing on the trade so far, not coming up in the next segment either. I wonder why?

He made a very definitive claim last week that there would be no deal of Kyrie to the Suns. At this point he'd be admitting he was wrong if he continued to speculate, which we know he just can't do. If it does go down, he'll backtrack on what he said and split hairs about his terminology

What he said exactly is that the Cavs do not want to trade with us if Jackson is not available. He heard that from a good Cavs source.

Obviously, if the Cavs change their mind we probably have a trade.

[dremill24]

Hmmmm...... been listening to Gambo for 47 minutes and nothing on the trade so far, not coming up in the next segment either. I wonder why?

He made a very definitive claim last week that there would be no deal of Kyrie to the Suns. At this point he'd be admitting he was wrong if he continued to speculate, which we know he just can't do. If it does go down, he'll backtrack on what he said and split hairs about his terminology

What he said exactly is that the Cavs do not want to trade with us if Jackson is not available. He heard that from a good Cavs source.

Obviously, if the Cavs change their mind we probably have a trade.

Yeah, kinda like that.

Is that you Gambo?

[DirtyDez]

Cleveland has no choice but to trade him to us

Nobody else will give them anything better than Bledsoe and fillers

Our biggest competition is Cleveland keeping him.

Unless Denver comes up with Jamal Murray - I agree, Cleveland is the biggest competition. Maybe they won't feel like Bledsoe Warren/Chriss, Miamis pick , Dudley for Shumpert, Frye and Kyrie is enough

As far as teams, the only other team is the Knicks and that would probably be a three way deal with the Suns getting Frank N, plus cap filler. Melo doesn't want to go to Cleveland now

Minnesota not offering Wiggins is a huge deal because they are probably

Same trade as always
Bledsoe, the Heat pick (don't even offer a protected Suns pick unless top 10), Chriss or Warren - plus probably Dudley or Chandler for Kyrie, Frye, Shumpert and possibly RJ.

Pretty much the best the Cavs will get at this point I am guessing. So its their choice.

Forgot about Denver. Murray's value is likely on par with Jackson so if he's on on the table it changes things but it doesn't sound like he is.

If I'm Cleveland i ask Milwaukee for combination of Brogdon/Maker or take the Suns offer of Bledsoe, Chriss, MIA picks.

[RaisingArizona]

He made a very definitive claim last week that there would be no deal of Kyrie to the Suns. At this point he'd be admitting he was wrong if he continued to speculate, which we know he just can't do. If it does go down, he'll backtrack on what he said and split hairs about his terminology

What he said exactly is that the Cavs do not want to trade with us if Jackson is not available. He heard that from a good Cavs source.

Obviously, if the Cavs change their mind we probably have a trade.

Yeah, kinda like that.

Is that you Gambo?

I always thought Dambo was Gambo in disguise.

[BobbieL]

Our biggest competition is Cleveland keeping him.

Unless Denver comes up with Jamal Murray - I agree, Cleveland is the biggest competition. Maybe they won't feel like Bledsoe Warren/Chriss, Miamis pick , Dudley for Shumpert, Frye and Kyrie is enough

As far as teams, the only other team is the Knicks and that would probably be a three way deal with the Suns getting Frank N, plus cap filler. Melo doesn't want to go to Cleveland now

Minnesota not offering Wiggins is a huge deal because they are probably

Same trade as always
Bledsoe, the Heat pick (don't even offer a protected Suns pick unless top 10), Chriss or Warren - plus probably Dudley or Chandler for Kyrie, Frye, Shumpert and possibly RJ.

Pretty much the best the Cavs will get at this point I am guessing. So its their choice.

Forgot about Denver. Murray's value is likely on par with Jackson so if he's on on the table it changes things but it doesn't sound like he is.

If I'm Cleveland i ask Milwaukee for combination of Brogdon/Maker or take the Suns offer of Bledsoe, Chriss, MIA picks.

The Milwaukee offer is interesting but would have to include Greg Monroe or a combination of Hawes/Teletovic to make the cap work since both teams are well over.

Suns still have the ability to take on cap space. Maybe its not a big deal but on twitter, have read that the Cavs want to offload a contract, I forget the source - so maybe it was Kennedy or Schultz (or take it for what its worth)

[DirtyDez]

The fillers could be managed but the assets would favor the other two...

Murray or Harris > Brogdon > Bledsoe

Maker > Chriss or Bender > Lyles or Hernangomez

Suns top-3 protected > Nuggs top-3 > Bucks top-3

I'd take one of the Denver guards or Maker's upside as the headliner but the Suns' pick makes it close.

[lilfishi22]

I don't disagree with you about having nostalgia of the old pass first PG's of the past. I wish we still have a Nash on our team. But times have changed. The days where PG's are the ones primarily handling the ball are a thing of the past. As you mentioned, guys like Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis are the PG's of today even though they aren't the traditional PG's. In the same vein, Kyrie being a PG, doesn't mean his only job is to create for others .

And I don't buy that Kyrie is an unchangeable and resolutely selfish player who only wants to dominate the ball and nothing else. Would you be opposed if James Harden became the primary ball handler? Kyrie's career AST% is right in line with Harden's and it wasn't until Harden 3rd season being the man in Houston did he record a better AST% than Kyrie's career %. Nobody expected Harden to be an elite passer on the same level as CP3, until this last season. Let's not even get into Harden's poor defense.

Let's look at another comparison. Stephen Curry, an MVP level player wasn't an elite passer until he turned 25; 2 seasons after he became the man in GS and Thompson had a season under his belt. Kyrie in his rookie season, had a better AST% than Curry did until Curry became an all-star at 25.

Both of these elite players had be given time to be the man to become the MVP level players they are today.

The problem is that the Suns dont have Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron or Giannis if they did I would be more understanding of bring Kyrie in. Bender and Jackson might have the ability in the future to have the offense run through them but right now they are not there. To top this off Kyrie has been very clear that he doesnt want to play second to other player which is what would be required to the offense run through a player like Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron or Giannis.

As far as Harden goes up till last year he has never been the point guard on a team but even before that he has show that he was a willing passer going all the way back to college. So you want to compare a shooting guard vs. point guard even looking historically Harden is a better passer.

Curry wasnt a elite passer early in his career (remember this was under Doc Rivers) and when Kerr came in they changed the offense around a made Draymond the distributor and as a team the Warriors are one of the most unselfish team in the NBA and the suns are one of the worst passing teams in the NBA.

I'm completely fine knowing in advance he doesn't want to play second fiddle to other players. And looking up and down our roster, I don't think there is an issue. Irving is significantly more skilled and more experienced than our next best player, Booker. So he wouldn't be playing second fiddle. Booker isn't even 21 yet so he has time to come into his own and he had no issues playing with Bledsoe who's our best player. But like you said, we don't have a Draymond, Kawhi or Lebron so there is no problem with Irving having to play second fiddle, again.

My comparison with Harden was only to show that positions are unimportant in today's NBA where an almost 7 foot Giannis can be a PG. This is not a SG vs PG debate. It's a who can handle the ball and who can run a team debate. Beverley was the "PG" for Houston last season and this season Harden was the "PG"; they still share the same backcourt and their roles haven't really changed, so what gives? Position and what was traditionally expected from those positions are a thing of the past. It wasn't until Harden was put in a position where he was handling the ball full time, had experience running the offense and had the system (D'Antoni) to run it in, that he became the player he was today. Harden is a better passer now, he's actually passing at an elite level but he wasn't always that way and let's be honest, he's a talented passer but no one expected him to be elite until he was given the reigns to run the offense under D'Antoni.

Curry was a similar level passer as Irving until he was a system which preached ball movement and was paired with a fantastic shooter in Thompson. So this is less of a negative against Irving and more against our current coaching.

[lilfishi22]

And what if we never get to the stage where we're "ready to compete"? You say it's a waste of time if Irving walks. You could say the same thing if in 3-4 years when we should be ready to compete and we're not ready. We're seeing that with Len now. What if down the road we're in the same situation with Chriss and Bender as we are now with Len? Right now, the only player close to a sure thing is Booker and even he has a ton of question marks around his efficiency, defense and ability to lead a team. There's no reason not to bring in a guy like Irving, who fits the core, who brings elite offense and championship experience. This team can learn a lot from that sort of experience and leadership. And ultimately, who are you giving up? Chriss? Maybe Warren? Bledsoe? At the very least, one of those three guys likely won't be with us in two season.

To me there every reason not to want Kyrie starting off with the fact that he is a selfish player in a position that demands unselfishness. Other teams overcome this by having other players become the primary distributor (i.e. Lebron James or Draymond Green) but Kyrie wants the ball in his hands at all time. He is a point guard who job is to create for others and so far he would be rated poor for that fact alone. To top this off the Suns real weakness are defense and passing both areas that that Kyrie wont help in. As a matter of fact his presence alone will likely take rebounding into a critical area due to the drop in rebounding from Bledsoe to Kyrie. The only thing that Kyrie brings to the table is that he is closer in age to our core.

I am frankly tied of these combo guards who dont pass thinking that they have any right to be a point guard. Allen Iverson is one of the worst things that has ever happened to the NBA and you are seeing the same type of player in Kyrie.

This is mostly correct.

Im scared .

This cant top Brandon Knight trade, but is this that much different? Lets bring in another me first guy in PG spot. Havent we already seen that in mr. Knight PG adventures. At least we can cut our losses with him.

Bring kyrie in, we are unlikely to ever get rid of him. He just shoots too well , has so much flash that all his inabilities to make us a real winner gets overlooked in perpetuity.

As i have come to suspect, Kyrie lacks the coveted ability to make ones offence "hum". He has those incredible offensive performances which make your eyes bleed rainbows... but they are rainbows, they only come when its raining on a sunny day.

Bledsoe is missing that "hum" factor too, but he comes 10 to 15 million cheaper( that still gives us a chance to find a real difference maker). And im not convinced that Kyrie is even a better player. If we start adding value to offering of Bledsoe and pay Kyrie 35 million, we are going to be losers, big losers in this trade.

The comparison with Knight is disingenuous. We traded for Knight based on his potential. It was made worse by the fact that we gave up a coveted pick for him and also because he was up for a new deal after only having a half season to evaluate his play and fit with us. That off season we gave him his 5yr $70m deal which continues to haunt us. The difference is that Kyrie has already made that leap i.e. he's already on his 2nd major contract and producing.

If you see similarities between Knight and Irving.....

[lilfishi22]

Neither. We are a young team battling in the west...

We will find a PG in the future either through FA or a trade.

Theres no Urgency to do it now. We can wait Bledsoes contract out if we have to.

Develop our young core. TBH we don't really know what or who they are yet...Our team is so young.

We start just making bad trades now we could be in a bad spot for awhile.

To me I just care about where we are a few years from now because I love the suns. I don't want to just get dismantled and have to rebuild again.

Its not just Irving or Bledsoe. Theres more....Much, much, more.

I care as much as you about where we are a few years from now. But I don't see it as dismantling the team. I see it as trading some pieces which are going to be very costly to retain in 2 years anyway for an elite talent that 100% fits our core. Sure there's a chance he could walk in 2yrs but the players we trade for him, are probably going to go anyway in 2yrs. Ultimately, we lose Chriss and a draft pick and that's a price I'm willing to pay, especially when we still have Booker, Bender, Jackson, Ulis and whoever else we draft with our remaining picks should the worse come to worst and Kyrie walks.

Let's face it, as much as I like our young guys, statistically most of them won't ever be more than rotation players, as much as I wish they could be more.

100% fits our core? How would we know that? They may hate playing with a guy that won't give up the ball just like they seemed to hate playing with Mike James in summer league. Obviously we know what types of guards McD likes. They all seem to play pretty similarly. For themselves.

1. Experience. Check
2. Age. Check
3. Potential. Check

He fits our core. I can't believe you're comparing Kyrie to 3-4 SL games of Mike James lol...Mike James isn't even on the same stratosphere a passer is Irving so you're making a HUGE leap that because the guys didn't like playing with Mike James, they wouldn't want to play with Irving?

Whether he's a good fit next to Booker, JJ and Bender. It's debateable. I don't know, you don't know. And I'm sure you'll find supporters on both sides of the fence. I'm of the belief that Kyrie is a talented enough passer, being able to run the offense and not having to wait for offense to be initiated by someone else will allow him to play with more flexibility and more freedom.

[thamadkant]

the Knight hate is understandable based on his last season play.
But prior to that, when he was starting he was a 17 point 6 assist combo guard.


He only played bad off the bench and in a system that Watson has implemented.


Basically with Booker, you cant have Bledsoe AND Knight...

Same with Irving, you cant have Booker and then have Knight...

[lilfishi22]

Harden wasn't even a PG until last season, so that's not the best comparison. Once he was given that duty, he thrived passing the ball. Irving's had that responsibility all along.

That's just not true.

Harden had been to go-to man in Houston since basically the day he got there. He didn't play the PG position until last season but that certainly didn't mean Patrick Beverley was their point man. Irving played the PG position, but let's not kid ourselves, he hasn't been the Cavs point man since Lebron came to town.

[TOO]

It's gotten to the point now that Irving is being vastly underrated here. Melodrama at its finest. Kyrie Irving is a stud, unstoppable offensively, he's what people are wishing Booker will be in regards to being a star offensive player. Now he's being compared to Brandon Knight? Are you kidding me? Yes, he's a shoot 1st PG, but so are the majority of them now, that's just how it goes. It's a 3ball small mans league now, and Irving is an unguardable force who fits the leagues direction perfectly. Does he defend well? Nope, but does Steph, Lillard, Harden, Towns, DeRozan defend well? Booker? No.

The days of high end 2-way players are dying, everyone has a specialty now, sure there are exceptions, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, but those guys are or will be all-timers. If we add Irving, I'm not gonna be sad about it, he's gonna put on a show, guarantee it, he'll be out to prove his worth. Everyone has seen him light up the Dubs on the biggest stage, the kid is a star. Period.

[lilfishi22]

It's gotten to the point now that Irving is being vastly underrated here. Melodrama at its finest. Kyrie Irving is a stud, unstoppable offensively, he's what people are wishing Booker will be in regards to being a star offensive player. Now he's being compared to Brandon Knight? Are you kidding me? Yes, he's a shoot 1st PG, but so are the majority of them now, that's just how it goes. It's a 3ball small mans league now, and Irving is an unguardable force who fits the leagues direction perfectly. Does he defend well? Nope, but does Steph, Lillard, Harden, Towns, DeRozan defend well? Booker? No.

The days of high end 2-way players are dying, everyone has a specialty now, sure there are exceptions, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, but those guys are or will be all-timers. If we add Irving, I'm not gonna be sad about it, he's gonna put on a show, guarantee it, he'll be out to prove his worth. Everyone has seen him light up the Dubs on the biggest stage, the kid is a star. Period.

Thank you !

[ray ray]

Kyrie Irving is 20 times better than Brandon Knights..