Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
Mulhollanddrive wrote:As long as Paul is a top 15 player I think Ayton is more valuable to us than Towns.
When we need to replace Paul there are free agents in 2-3 years like LeBron, Lillard, Harden.
bwgood77 wrote:I agree you do not need a great C when you have Michael Jordan. Or LeBron James.
I don't think great Cs are imperative at all.
I don't think great PGs are imperative at all.
I don't think great SGs are imperative at all
I don't think great SFs are imperative at all.
I don't think great PFs are imperative at all.
You need a few great players. It doesn't matter the position as long as they complement one another well. It CAN be C as we've seen on many teams. Or PG. Or SG. Or SF, etc.
bwgood77 wrote:Saberestar wrote:IF the Wolves continues losing games I think that Towns will ask for a trade before the deadline.
Just watch this...
Does the fact that he would walk like that down the court while his team had the ball make you antsy to get him on our team?
I kind of doubt they will trade him.
Our offense would be fun to watch with him. I just don't really see them trading him. Not after desperately trying to get his buddy DLo there. They have barely played together.
He could ask out but it usually doesn't come until there are 2 years or less left on their deal. But if he does make it clear that he wants out, they might think Ayton and pieces is nice to pair with Ant who will be on a rookie contract for awhile so easier to pay Ayton.
For those who don't think C's are worth the max though, KAT makes it and will likely require a max on his next deal. I imagine Booker will too.
Could be a fun team. I could see us being a lower seed and possibly make it to the 2nd round a couple times over the next 5-7 years or so.
KAT and Book don't feel like a championship pair. I know they played in college on a great team that went rolling into the tourney...that is until they ran into Frank the Tank and their perfect season ended.
I think we could have a shot at going all the way again if CP3 is healthy, but that's the difference between making a run and being a first round exit...but he won't be here for long.
Puff wrote:
The Great Centers that one poster mentioned, played a couple of decades ago, the game has changed. Shaq could not win until he got Kobe as the engine for the Lakers and Dwayne Wade in Miami. He thought he made those teams great by himself, not really. He was an important piece but the game has changed. I expect he would struggle in today's game. That is if they would call fouls on him when he played bully ball.
He could not win a championship in his second season because he was stopped .. by another great C.
NapoleonII wrote:So because we don't run plays for Ayton or feed him or run our offense thru him = Ayton is completely inept at scoring on his own, is spoon fed by Cp3
lol
Despite putting up great rookie numbers (16/10) in 2018-9 with a PG line-up of Okobo/ Canaan / Melton.
Despite limiting his game BECAUSE of our system that has the most killer back court with Cp3 and Booker.
Despite putting up good numbers in the games where CP3 is injured, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
Despite getting wins against All-NBA centers/big man Jokic/Anthony Davis
The Ayton Detractors are really dragging this board down. I'm not talking about the realists, but the ones who are screaming trade when we're winning, after a really successful year from this extremely young team and 23-year old building block
I'm gonna limit my time here until the playoffs, see ya'll when we win 60+ games and have a great chance of getting to the finals.
SunsLyf3 wrote:NapoleonII wrote:So because we don't run plays for Ayton or feed him or run our offense thru him = Ayton is completely inept at scoring on his own, is spoon fed by Cp3
lol
Despite putting up great rookie numbers (16/10) in 2018-9 with a PG line-up of Okobo/ Canaan / Melton.
Despite limiting his game BECAUSE of our system that has the most killer back court with Cp3 and Booker.
Despite putting up good numbers in the games where CP3 is injured, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
Despite getting wins against All-NBA centers/big man Jokic/Anthony Davis
The Ayton Detractors are really dragging this board down. I'm not talking about the realists, but the ones who are screaming trade when we're winning, after a really successful year from this extremely young team and 23-year old building block
I'm gonna limit my time here until the playoffs, see ya'll when we win 60+ games and have a great chance of getting to the finals.
Thank you for this. It needed to be said and you can clearly see who has an agenda to follow in order to drag DA down for no reason.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:SunsLyf3 wrote:NapoleonII wrote:So because we don't run plays for Ayton or feed him or run our offense thru him = Ayton is completely inept at scoring on his own, is spoon fed by Cp3
lol
Despite putting up great rookie numbers (16/10) in 2018-9 with a PG line-up of Okobo/ Canaan / Melton.
Despite limiting his game BECAUSE of our system that has the most killer back court with Cp3 and Booker.
Despite putting up good numbers in the games where CP3 is injured, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
Despite getting wins against All-NBA centers/big man Jokic/Anthony Davis
The Ayton Detractors are really dragging this board down. I'm not talking about the realists, but the ones who are screaming trade when we're winning, after a really successful year from this extremely young team and 23-year old building block
I'm gonna limit my time here until the playoffs, see ya'll when we win 60+ games and have a great chance of getting to the finals.
Thank you for this. It needed to be said and you can clearly see who has an agenda to follow in order to drag DA down for no reason.
I'm a huge DA fan, but even I can see why so many have problems with him. He's not very fluid on offense, avoids contact, isn't living up to his potential, doesn't give 100% effort except in bursts when prodded. This doesn't negate all the things he does well, but especially given how well McGee and Frank played in his absence, it's easy to see why many fans would take issue with giving him a max contract.
He's a throwback to another era, where big men dominated the league with mid-range and turnaround jump shots. In today's game, he's relegated to the role of rebounder/finisher/defender. He's an elite rebounder who gives us free points via the offensive glass, makes minimal mistakes and converts on his infrequent shot attempts at a high level, but he doesn't create offense with the ball in his hands, unlike guys like KAT and Jokic. But he's maybe the best in his league at his role - Capela and Gobert being the other contenders for that title, each having their own pluses and minuses relative to Ayton.
But the bottom line is that unless he embraces physicality, he'll never reach his full potential. That being so obvious is what gives the haters their ammunition - that and McGee/Frank's success in his absence. 25 PPG is his if he'll fight for it, but he doesn't. Too easygoing and passive, unwilling to assert his dominance on offense. We're caught between the fact that we can't possibly upgrade from him and that he won't upgrade himself to the level we would need him to reach in order to contend post-CP3. I get the frustration. Another brick in the wall between us and perennial contention. I love the guy but I too am losing hope he'll escape super role player status.
lilfishi22 wrote:I never really got the impression that KAT had a massive ego and needed to be THE man on his team. There was that whole thing with Butler and CP3 can rub people the wrong way in a similar fashion to Butler so that could be a point of contention. However, I really think KAT just wants to be in a winning situation where he could just be the 1B to Book's 1A and CP3 is way more of an enabler than Butler so I think it should be fine.
Puff wrote:bwgood77 wrote:I agree you do not need a great C when you have Michael Jordan. Or LeBron James.
I don't think great Cs are imperative at all.
I don't think great PGs are imperative at all.
I don't think great SGs are imperative at all
I don't think great SFs are imperative at all.
I don't think great PFs are imperative at all.
You need a few great players. It doesn't matter the position as long as they complement one another well. It CAN be C as we've seen on many teams. Or PG. Or SG. Or SF, etc.
It is quite annoying for you to change what I am saying to fit your arguments.
I have never said dump Ayton for nothing but I also believe he is not and will not be a great player. We need a great player going forward to replace CP3, I have said that repeatedly. I would do a sign and trade with Ayton this summer for a great player, quite frankly at any position. That is if there is one available that we could make a trade work. If we cannot make that happen I would sign Ayton as you suggest for something less than the max if possible. If another team offers him the max I would match it and continues to search for that great player in a sign and trade. If Ayton morphs into a legit GREAT player then we just keep him. It would be foolish to let him go for nothing.
You keep suggesting Mikal will be a GREAT player going forward. That is not going to happen. It is not part of his make up. However I would not trade him or include him in a trade, he is a keeper and a important piece going forward.
I view a GREAT player differently than simply one that fits with others. My view of a GREAT player is a player than you can give the ball to and he will either make the play for himself or create the play for a teammate. Those players are almost always are PG's, SG's or SF's.
The Great Centers that one poster mentioned, played a couple of decades ago, the game has changed. Shaq could not win until he got Kobe as the engine for the Lakers and Dwayne Wade in Miami. He thought he made those teams great by himself, not really. He was an important piece but the game has changed. I expect he would struggle in today's game. That is if they would call fouls on him when he played bully ball.
We are blessed to have two GREAT PLAYERS currently on our roster in Booker and CP3. Monte keeps one of them on the court at all times and at crunch time they are both on the court. If we ever get consistent play from Mikal, Cam Johnson, Cam Payne and Crowder we are going to be dangerous. Mikal has been the best of that group by a mile. However we keep winning, even if it is against the bottom feeders.
Things could be worse.
NapoleonII wrote:So because we don't run plays for Ayton or feed him or run our offense thru him = Ayton is completely inept at scoring on his own, is spoon fed by Cp3
lol
Despite putting up great rookie numbers (16/10) in 2018-9 with a PG line-up of Okobo/ Canaan / Melton.
Despite limiting his game BECAUSE of our system that has the most killer back court with Cp3 and Booker.
Despite putting up good numbers in the games where CP3 is injured, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
Despite getting wins against All-NBA centers/big man Jokic/Anthony Davis
The Ayton Detractors are really dragging this board down. I'm not talking about the realists, but the ones who are screaming trade when we're winning, after a really successful year from this extremely young team and 23-year old building block
I'm gonna limit my time here until the playoffs, see ya'll when we win 60+ games and have a great chance of getting to the finals.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:SunsLyf3 wrote:NapoleonII wrote:So because we don't run plays for Ayton or feed him or run our offense thru him = Ayton is completely inept at scoring on his own, is spoon fed by Cp3
lol
Despite putting up great rookie numbers (16/10) in 2018-9 with a PG line-up of Okobo/ Canaan / Melton.
Despite limiting his game BECAUSE of our system that has the most killer back court with Cp3 and Booker.
Despite putting up good numbers in the games where CP3 is injured, both in the regular season and in the playoffs.
Despite getting wins against All-NBA centers/big man Jokic/Anthony Davis
The Ayton Detractors are really dragging this board down. I'm not talking about the realists, but the ones who are screaming trade when we're winning, after a really successful year from this extremely young team and 23-year old building block
I'm gonna limit my time here until the playoffs, see ya'll when we win 60+ games and have a great chance of getting to the finals.
Thank you for this. It needed to be said and you can clearly see who has an agenda to follow in order to drag DA down for no reason.
I'm a huge DA fan, but even I can see why so many have problems with him. He's not very fluid on offense, avoids contact, isn't living up to his potential, doesn't give 100% effort except in bursts when prodded. This doesn't negate all the things he does well, but especially given how well McGee and Frank played in his absence, it's easy to see why many fans would take issue with giving him a max contract.
He's a throwback to another era, where big men dominated the league with mid-range and turnaround jump shots. In today's game, he's relegated to the role of rebounder/finisher/defender. He's an elite rebounder who gives us free points via the offensive glass, makes minimal mistakes and converts on his infrequent shot attempts at a high level, but he doesn't create offense with the ball in his hands, unlike guys like KAT and Jokic. But he's maybe the best in his league at his role - Capela and Gobert being the other contenders for that title, each having their own pluses and minuses relative to Ayton.
But the bottom line is that unless he embraces physicality, he'll never reach his full potential. That being so obvious is what gives the haters their ammunition - that and McGee/Frank's success in his absence. 25 PPG is his if he'll fight for it, but he doesn't. Too easygoing and passive, unwilling to assert his dominance on offense. We're caught between the fact that we can't possibly upgrade from him and that he won't upgrade himself to the level we would need him to reach in order to contend post-CP3. I get the frustration. Another brick in the wall between us and perennial contention. I love the guy but I too am losing hope he'll escape super role player status.
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I never really got the impression that KAT had a massive ego and needed to be THE man on his team. There was that whole thing with Butler and CP3 can rub people the wrong way in a similar fashion to Butler so that could be a point of contention. However, I really think KAT just wants to be in a winning situation where he could just be the 1B to Book's 1A and CP3 is way more of an enabler than Butler so I think it should be fine.
Maybe you know more about KAT than me but I think he is another guy that will want his touches and #s.
Though I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. You want guys that want it, but are willing to let other guys take over too.
Do you see a team with Booker as #1 option taking 20+ shots a night being a contender?
Obviously it depends on supporting cast but I think it is weird saying a guy like KAT needs to take a back seat to him on offense when he is a far more elite scorer, solid creator, etc.
Defensively there is a lot to be desired and with those two as two major pieces we would surely suffer defensively. KAT should definitely take more shots than Book though given that he scores far more pps.
sunsbg wrote:This debate made me watch a replay and focus on KAT's play in this game. He's obviously great shooter, they compare him with Dirk for a reason. That said, the guy set his first on-ball screen in the 3rd, another one in the same qtr, moving screen in the 4th and that's all that I remember, probably 5 total for the game. Compare this with DA's screens on every possession, sometimes more than once. KAT is simply slower thus less valuable as a screener and defender. Expect a heavy ISO offense if him and Booker end on the same team. Suns don't need this with CP3 onboard.
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I never really got the impression that KAT had a massive ego and needed to be THE man on his team. There was that whole thing with Butler and CP3 can rub people the wrong way in a similar fashion to Butler so that could be a point of contention. However, I really think KAT just wants to be in a winning situation where he could just be the 1B to Book's 1A and CP3 is way more of an enabler than Butler so I think it should be fine.
Maybe you know more about KAT than me but I think he is another guy that will want his touches and #s.
Though I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. You want guys that want it, but are willing to let other guys take over too.
Do you see a team with Booker as #1 option taking 20+ shots a night being a contender?
Obviously it depends on supporting cast but I think it is weird saying a guy like KAT needs to take a back seat to him on offense when he is a far more elite scorer, solid creator, etc.
Defensively there is a lot to be desired and with those two as two major pieces we would surely suffer defensively. KAT should definitely take more shots than Book though given that he scores far more pps.
I don't think I know more, I just don't know him as that guy. We had the some questions when CP3 was traded to the Suns whether it would work with Book who's been the man since we got rid of Bledsoe. But winners just want to win. And FWIW, KAT is a pretty good and unselfish passer averaging over 4apg over the past 3 seasons so I'm not really concerned about that.
I don't really like Book as the #1 option but I also don't like PG as the #1 option nor do I like AD as the #1 option nor Kyrie. There's a bunch of really talented, All-NBA level guys who I don't necessarily think should be the #1 guy but could be a 1B or 1A. I think Book with KAT would be super interesting and there is a natural fit there imo because they play different positions, they play a different style, they have complementary games because of their natural styles and I don't think they are selfish players.
Defensively, yes it won't be like having Ayton in there but could you make up for it with elite offense and a top 10 defense still? I think it's possible.
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
Maybe you know more about KAT than me but I think he is another guy that will want his touches and #s.
Though I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. You want guys that want it, but are willing to let other guys take over too.
Do you see a team with Booker as #1 option taking 20+ shots a night being a contender?
Obviously it depends on supporting cast but I think it is weird saying a guy like KAT needs to take a back seat to him on offense when he is a far more elite scorer, solid creator, etc.
Defensively there is a lot to be desired and with those two as two major pieces we would surely suffer defensively. KAT should definitely take more shots than Book though given that he scores far more pps.
I don't think I know more, I just don't know him as that guy. We had the some questions when CP3 was traded to the Suns whether it would work with Book who's been the man since we got rid of Bledsoe. But winners just want to win. And FWIW, KAT is a pretty good and unselfish passer averaging over 4apg over the past 3 seasons so I'm not really concerned about that.
I don't really like Book as the #1 option but I also don't like PG as the #1 option nor do I like AD as the #1 option nor Kyrie. There's a bunch of really talented, All-NBA level guys who I don't necessarily think should be the #1 guy but could be a 1B or 1A. I think Book with KAT would be super interesting and there is a natural fit there imo because they play different positions, they play a different style, they have complementary games because of their natural styles and I don't think they are selfish players.
Defensively, yes it won't be like having Ayton in there but could you make up for it with elite offense and a top 10 defense still? I think it's possible.
Well as far as "#1 options" as people like to call it, that would leave only a handful of guys in the league. Ultimately you just need a lot of great options. The minute you start relying on one guy too much to always be your savior, you can get into trouble unless you have Michael Jordan or super elite supporting casts.