Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[GeraldsGreenery]

Kyrie Irving is 20 times better than Brandon Knights..

Without a doubt Ray Ray. Have you herd anything new since you last posted?

[Moochthemonkey]

tell me Jordan wouldn't bite on these trades

Kemba/Batum for Irving/JR/1st

or

Kemba/Batum for Irving/Frye/Jefferson

Kemba/Kaminsky/Monk/1st for Irving

basically a deal centered around Irving for Walker.

Walker is more or less as good as Bledsoe, and has no injury concerns.
For all the flaws that Kyrie has and his questionable ability to lead a team- he seems like a player Jordan would kill to try to build a franchise around.

Deal 1: Lebron also gets that 3&D wing defender that can be used in small ball lineups where Lebron plays PF (or C). Walker/Shumpert/Batum/Lebron/Thompson is a better defensive lineup against the Warriors than what they put out in the finals. Admittingly Batum 3PT % was down last year...and JR Smith is coming off one of his worst seasons. A 1st is compensation for taking on his contract.

Deal 2: Same as above, but instead of a 1st and JR Smith's contract, the Hornets acquire an expiring in Frye and RJ's cheap remaining 2 years.

Deal 3: Perhaps beats Suns projected best proposal of Bledsoe/Warren(or Chriss)/Miami or top 5 protected Suns pick. The Cavs may not get the "blue chip" young player, but Monk is still a lottery pick, Kaminsky is roughly equal value with Warren or Chriss, and the Charlotte pick is about on par or a bit better than Miami's.

[AtheJ415]

The fillers could be managed but the assets would favor the other two...

Murray or Harris > Brogdon > Bledsoe

Maker > Chriss or Bender > Lyles or Hernangomez

Suns top-3 protected > Nuggs top-3 > Bucks top-3

I'd take one of the Denver guards or Maker's upside as the headliner but the Suns' pick makes it close.

Sorry, but Brogdon is 1000% not > Bledsoe. He is only 3 years younger than Bled and is a 10, 4, and 3 guy. Yes, he shoots well from 3, but his PER is 14.9 (average).

Bledsoe is a 20, 6, and 5 guy on a very good contract for 2 years.

I also thoroughly disagree with Maker here. He averaged 4, 2, and 0 (yes 0). He shot well from 3 but shot 65% from the free throw line and is older than both Chriss and Bender (despite being young).

I get that 3 point shooting is important, but Chriss and Bender both show potential from 3 and are a lot more versatile. Brogdon is a great role player but doesn't project to be more. I don't think he has the athletic upside of any of these guys, and I think it is reasonable to assume that Chriss and Bender in 5 years will be at least league average.

Maker has definite upside but playing well in 10 games down the stretch doesn't mean he is suddenly super valuable.

[Moochthemonkey]

the Knight hate is understandable based on his last season play.

no it continues back from when Bledsoe went down. Knight as the starting PG in '16 was disastrous.

[bwgood77]

I care as much as you about where we are a few years from now. But I don't see it as dismantling the team. I see it as trading some pieces which are going to be very costly to retain in 2 years anyway for an elite talent that 100% fits our core. Sure there's a chance he could walk in 2yrs but the players we trade for him, are probably going to go anyway in 2yrs. Ultimately, we lose Chriss and a draft pick and that's a price I'm willing to pay, especially when we still have Booker, Bender, Jackson, Ulis and whoever else we draft with our remaining picks should the worse come to worst and Kyrie walks.

Let's face it, as much as I like our young guys, statistically most of them won't ever be more than rotation players, as much as I wish they could be more.

100% fits our core? How would we know that? They may hate playing with a guy that won't give up the ball just like they seemed to hate playing with Mike James in summer league. Obviously we know what types of guards McD likes. They all seem to play pretty similarly. For themselves.

1. Experience. Check
2. Age. Check
3. Potential. Check

He fits our core. I can't believe you're comparing Kyrie to 3-4 SL games of Mike James lol...Mike James isn't even on the same stratosphere a passer is Irving so you're making a HUGE leap that because the guys didn't like playing with Mike James, they wouldn't want to play with Irving?

Whether he's a good fit next to Booker, JJ and Bender. It's debateable. I don't know, you don't know. And I'm sure you'll find supporters on both sides of the fence. I'm of the belief that Kyrie is a talented enough passer, being able to run the offense and not having to wait for offense to be initiated by someone else will allow him to play with more flexibility and more freedom.

I am not sure where you get this belief about him as a passer. A video compilation of his best passes since being in the league? I haven't heard one person who has watched a great deal of him say that it's something he willing does consistently in games.

I am a big believer in team chemistry. I was finally happy that we finally seemed to be developing chemistry after the guard debacle, Morris debacle, etc, and now that is at risk. He's a star player and a big name, and in NBA2K you could make it work. In real life, we don't know.

All I am saying is that many risks come with this. And I am happy where our team is RIGHT NOW and the direction we are headed. COULD this make us a better TEAM? Maybe, but I don't know, and I wouldn't necessarily bet on it. Could it hurt chemistry? Without a doubt. Will we lose perhaps a promising young player and pick to take those risks? Yes. Will he be here more than 2 years? Maybe. Probably not. Is he an ideal pairing with Booker? Not at all.

Does he make a team better? Biff's post on the other thread was quite alarming. That, combined with how Cleveland this year played when LeBron sat are scary signs for whether or not he really is a team player. Anything you read shows red flags. He may be one of the hardest, if not THE hardest guys to stop one on one...and he'd be a good pick in a 1 on 1 tournament. To inject into a team that already has good chemistry, is young, and growing? I have my doubts.

I really hope it works if this trade goes down. I'm really going to hate it if we lose Jackson, since he is the guy we would really need to try and cover for these two guards defensively.

I definitely think there is no question we will easily have the worst defense in the league.

If it's a reasonable deal, it's a deal that's kind of hard not to make. In theory, if the fit wasn't right, or you got the feeling he wasn't all that happy to be here after half a season, you could trade him. But that would be unlikely to happen after you made the trade..you would almost have to ride it out.

Sometimes the best move is the move you don't make, even though it might look good on paper, or especially look good in NBA2K.

[bwgood77]

Hmmmm...... been listening to Gambo for 47 minutes and nothing on the trade so far, not coming up in the next segment either. I wonder why?

He made a very definitive claim last week that there would be no deal of Kyrie to the Suns. At this point he'd be admitting he was wrong if he continued to speculate, which we know he just can't do. If it does go down, he'll backtrack on what he said and split hairs about his terminology

Especially since he said Jackson wouldn't be traded, and he is eligible to be traded tomorrow, and there were people yesterday saying it should happen within a couple of days.

The one somewhat credible source I heard from was no Jackson, no deal, though that was a week ago, so perhaps things changed. Who knows?

[MrMiyagi]

Again, Kyrie is a wonderful player and fun to watch, but we are in the position of strength, we shouldn't want to give up anything for him. LeBron might bolt from Cleveland, they have to keep him happy. It seems Kyrie does not make him happy. Bledsoe would. There don't seem to be any offers that match the Cavs' unrealistic expectations for a return on a Kyrie trade, so we shouldn't accommodate them in the slightest.

[TOO]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

[Moochthemonkey]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

Jaymes Young, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, and even more draft picks

[TOO]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

Jaymes Young, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, and even more draft picks

I laughed.

[AtheJ415]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

True, but Boston was insane with their trade requests and has a GM who is notoriously stingy in trades. They refused to trade Terry Freaking Rozier for most guys in the league, and wanted protection on their picks coupled with mostly solid role players.

I think most around the league don't value the solid role player that makes up most of Boston's team aside from IT. Olnyk, Bradley, etc. to me are not necessarily players that rebuilding teams want, so the key was the picks or guys with upside. On the team from last season, I would question who has upside aside from Brown and their picks, and since they refused Brown in trades, all there was was picks. Since Boston wanted them thoroughly protected, for a rebuilding team, what were they really offering? Basically Jae Crowder, a very good but limited upside player. Most teams want younger players.

There's nothing wrong with valuing and keeping the picks. Boston's issue is that they are pretty terrible at drafting, so those picks lose a lot of value once made. He is probably the only GM in basketball who could talk himself out of Markelle Fultz.

[BobbieL]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

If the deal is truly, at the core, Bledsoe, the Heat pick, Chriss /Warren for Kyrie - for me its a good deal.

There might be other players added in but at the core - that seems like a good solid trade for Kyrie. Suns are better with Kyrie

He is 25. Maybe he is an ISO ball hog; maybe with the Suns he will evolved. But there is no guarantee Chriss will develop or how much better Warren will get. And that Heat pick -- not giving the Suns pick - but that Heat pick will be in the teens, who knows about that.

I think its a right move.

[Waylay13]

Whether he's a good fit next to Booker, JJ and Bender. It's debateable. I don't know, you don't know. And I'm sure you'll find supporters on both sides of the fence. I'm of the belief that Kyrie is a talented enough passer, being able to run the offense and not having to wait for offense to be initiated by someone else will allow him to play with more flexibility and more freedom.

in college averaged only 4.3 assist per game and his first couple years in the NBA he averaged 5.4, 5.9 and 6.1 assists per game before Lebron returned. Since playing with the one of the greatest players in the game his assist total has dropped and if that wouldnt matter if when Lebron wasnt on the floor: Kyrie led team was -130 meaning against the second string players he cant keep the lead. So his stats are largely based off being next to Lebron. So Lilifishi22 how do you answer the fact that when given the freedom that you think he should get he isnt productive?

[lilfishi22]

I am not sure where you get this belief about him as a passer. A video compilation of his best passes since being in the league? I haven't heard one person who has watched a great deal of him say that it's something he willing does consistently in games.

I am a big believer in team chemistry. I was finally happy that we finally seemed to be developing chemistry after the guard debacle, Morris debacle, etc, and now that is at risk. He's a star player and a big name, and in NBA2K you could make it work. In real life, we don't know.

All I am saying is that many risks come with this. And I am happy where are team is RIGHT NOW and the direction we are headed. COULD this make us a better TEAM? Maybe, but I don't know, and I wouldn't necessarily bet on it. Could it hurt chemistry? Without a doubt. Will we lose perhaps a promising young player and pick to take those risks? Yes. Will he be here more than 2 years? Maybe. Probably not. Is he an ideal pairing with Booker? Not at all.

Does he make a team better? Biff's post on the other thread was quite alarming. That, combined with how Cleveland this year played when LeBron sat are scary signs for whether or not he really is a team player. Anything you read shows red flags. He may be one of the hardest, if not THE hardest guys to stop one on one...and he'd be a good pick in a 1 on 1 tournament. To inject into a team that already has good chemistry, is young, and growing? I have my doubts.

I really hope it works if this trade goes down. I'm really going to hate it if we lose Jackson, since he is the guy we would really need to try and cover for these two guards defensively.

I definitely think there is no question we will easily have the worst defense in the league.

If it's a reasonable deal, it's a deal that's kind of hard not to make. In theory, if the fit wasn't right, or you got the feeling he wasn't all that happy to be here after half a season, you could trade him. But that would be unlikely to happen after you made the trade..you would almost have to ride it out.

Sometimes the best move is the move you don't make, even though it might look good on paper, or especially look good in NBA2K.

I've watched him play over the years. I've watched him play when he was the man and I've watched him when he played second fiddle behind Lebron. I've watched a few passing highlights but that's more for entertainment than anything because I'm acutely aware highlights are just that, highlights. I looked at his stats, I looked at his role and I look at his abilities. I believe he can be a better passer if he became a focal point of running the offense. Will he be Harden or Westbrook or Wall averaging double digit assist numbers? Probably not. But how many PG's are capable of averaging even 5 assists playing next to Lebron? I just don't believe he's unchangeable and stuck in his ways but I also don't believe he's going to explode and turn into James Harden either. I don't think my expectations are overly ambitious

I think team chemistry is very important. It's a huge reason why the Dragic/Bledsoe back court worked. I don't deny it's importance at all. I just don't think our chemistry is at some sort of peak level which you've made it out to be. Yeah we've stayed together considering the season we've been through but chemistry is more than just liking each other, it's also understanding each other's games, tendencies and personalities. Our young guys still don't know each other's games, tendencies and personalities are still developing. If we're talking about a Spurs team with TD, Manu and TP who've played with each other for a decade and you want to remove Manu and insert a Lance Stephenson in there, then yeah I'd be very concerned about the chemistry. But this is a team where more than half of the players haven't even played with each other for more than 2 seasons. I'm not going to pretend we're at peak chemistry levels. I don't know how you could resolutely say he will 'without a doubt' hurt the chemistry of the team.

Regarding defense, we're near the bottom of the league anyway. It's not a huge leap to say we could fall or at least stay stagnant. Which would still leave us near the bottom of the league.

I feel like we're not going to agree on this debate. You're clearly stuck on that side of the fence whereas I'm more optimistic but also fully aware of the risks. I'm happy to move over to your side of the fence if we're talking about including another promising young player like JJ but I feel the price is right, the risk is priced in the package and it's an opportunity we should take advantage of.

I'm in the finance world and deal with risk not as a feeling but as a price. Every move, even non-moves has risks. The risk of not making moves is even if you're in a position where you're ahead, the world could move by you even if you're doing nothing. That's why when I consider a trade for Irving and the risk of him stinking up the team and leaving in 2 yrs, it's priced into what we give up. What we give up is Bledsoe (gone in 2yrs likely), Chriss (has promise but only promise), 1st (who knows) and that's not a crazy package to give up.

[bwgood77]

Harden wasn't even a PG until last season, so that's not the best comparison. Once he was given that duty, he thrived passing the ball. Irving's had that responsibility all along.

That's just not true.

Harden had been to go-to man in Houston since basically the day he got there. He didn't play the PG position until last season but that certainly didn't mean Patrick Beverley was their point man. Irving played the PG position, but let's not kid ourselves, he hasn't been the Cavs point man since Lebron came to town.

OK, you're right, and you're actually using an argument I use about who is "called" PG isn't always necessarily the "point". But, even though Harden usually had the ball in his hands and was more the point guy than Beverley, he didn't truly transform into the MVP caliber type player he is until he played and bought into the D'Antoni system. He was the type of player that was not fun to watch whatsoever in his play style and it wasn't really "team" ball.

And if you read the players tribune article about him and D'Antoni watching Nash footage, Harden said he first though "I don't want to do SSOL" or something like that, but finally bought in, and that is when he took a major leap.

Kyrie has shared those duties with LeBron, but even before LeBron he never averaged more assists, and Lowe and others have since pointed out that when LeBron sat, his shot rate went to historic levels while he only had a slight uptick in assists...so he doesn't suddenly change if he is in charge. He still was surrounded by great shooters.

Since these guards (Kyrie, Booker) are all offense, no D, to REALLY maximize their effectiveness offensively in a sheer effort to outscore opponents, it would be interesting if D'Antoni was the coach and to see if those guys would buy in. Sometimes players do and sometimes they don't. Some players are just kind of stuck in their ways and resort to playing how they always have.

I do hope if we get him he really makes an effort to get everyone involved so everyone stays engaged on the floor. While I have my doubt about fit and whether he would like to stay long term, and how I like what we have going without him, and not wanting to give up too much, I know he is a premier talent and that players with his elite scoring skill don't come along too often.

[Puff]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

If the deal is truly, at the core, Bledsoe, the Heat pick, Chriss /Warren for Kyrie - for me its a good deal.

There might be other players added in but at the core - that seems like a good solid trade for Kyrie. Suns are better with Kyrie

He is 25. Maybe he is an ISO ball hog; maybe with the Suns he will evolved. But there is no guarantee Chriss will develop or how much better Warren will get. And that Heat pick -- not giving the Suns pick - but that Heat pick will be in the teens, who knows about that.

I think its a right move.

My sweetener would be to take on additional salary, Frye and Shumpert. As I understand that for every dollar the Cavs are over the cap they pay $4. That means that if we take on an additional $10 Mil that saves them $40 Mil. They can then just transfer that money to Lebron's checking account so they can keep him next summer. I believe we have more than enough cap room to do that, if we do not sign Alex Len.

I could easily live with a Chandler, Frye, Williams rotation at the 5 next season. I have always liked Shumpert's game but I think he has turned into a punk. Hopefully we can change that once he gets to the desert. Wait, with have the punk creator as our head coach. On 2nd thought..........

I don't know if other teams can offer that savings but I think we can. We should use it to our advantage.

[thamadkant]

the Knight hate is understandable based on his last season play.

no it continues back from when Bledsoe went down. Knight as the starting PG in '16 was disastrous.

hence why I also mentioned since Watson implemented his so called "system", basically ISO a player and rotate the ball at the perimeter until someone is open.... and lob the ball to Chandler and make Len a mid range shooter.

[lilfishi22]

Whether he's a good fit next to Booker, JJ and Bender. It's debateable. I don't know, you don't know. And I'm sure you'll find supporters on both sides of the fence. I'm of the belief that Kyrie is a talented enough passer, being able to run the offense and not having to wait for offense to be initiated by someone else will allow him to play with more flexibility and more freedom.

in college averaged only 4.3 assist per game and his first couple years in the NBA he averaged 5.4, 5.9 and 6.1 assists per game before Lebron returned. Since playing with the one of the greatest players in the game his assist total has dropped and if that wouldnt matter if when Lebron wasnt on the floor: Kyrie led team was -130 meaning against the second string players he cant keep the lead. So his stats are largely based off being next to Lebron. So Lilifishi22 how do you answer the fact that when given the freedom that you think he should get he isnt productive?

Great question, but before we get to that, let's look at a few numbers

4.3apg
4.2apg
5.6apg

These were the college assist stats of Westbrook, Harden, Curry.

None of these players came into the league as elite passers. They had passing talent but they weren't natural passers like CP3 or Wall. What I think is more important than raw APG numbers are the AST% which is the percentage each possessions turns into an assist for a team mate. James Harden AST% over his time in Houston is 34.8% if we take out last season when he became a focal point of a D'Antoni offense. Steph Curry's AST% is 32.4%. Westbrook's is an elite 41.5% for his career. And Kyrie's is 30% which is not elite but far from a non-passer. Pre-Lebron it was 33.2% and post-Lebron it was 27.1%. Another stat I like to look at is ast:TO ratio. Kyrie is just over 2:1. Harden is 1.7:1 with Houston. Westbrook is also just over 2:1 and 2.1:1. He takes care of the ball when he's passing it.

So again, he isn't elite but he's an excellent passer. What we see in those small samples when Lebron wasn't playing, clearly shows the team wasn't very good with him running the show. There's no denying that. But having watched quite a few of their games (my brother is a Miami fan, so he followed Lebron's progress in Cleveland), I can see the rest of their team is very much in the same spots as when Lebron is running the show. The problem is Irving isn't the same level passer Lebron is and he isn't capable of many of those passes purely based on the size and court vision Lebron has. So what I see is that the Cavs don't cater as well to Kyrie's poorer passing compared to Lebron as they should be.

[BobbieL]

Boston was thought to be in a position of strength in multiple trade scenarios too.. What did they end up with?

Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet to get the guy you want.

If the deal is truly, at the core, Bledsoe, the Heat pick, Chriss /Warren for Kyrie - for me its a good deal.

There might be other players added in but at the core - that seems like a good solid trade for Kyrie. Suns are better with Kyrie

He is 25. Maybe he is an ISO ball hog; maybe with the Suns he will evolved. But there is no guarantee Chriss will develop or how much better Warren will get. And that Heat pick -- not giving the Suns pick - but that Heat pick will be in the teens, who knows about that.

I think its a right move.

My sweetener would be to take on additional salary, Frye and Shumpert. As I understand that for every dollar the Cavs are over the cap they pay $4. That means that if we take on an additional $10 Mil that saves them $40 Mil. They can then just transfer that money to Lebron's checking account so they can keep him next summer. I believe we have more than enough cap room to do that, if we do not sign Alex Len.

I could easily live with a Chandler, Frye, Williams rotation at the 5 next season. I have always liked Shumpert's game but I think he has turned into a punk. Hopefully we can change that once he gets to the desert. Wait, with have the punk creator as our head coach. On 2nd thought..........

I don't know if other teams can offer that savings but I think we can. We should use it to our advantage.

The only way we can take on both Frye and Shumpert I believe is by
1) renouncing Len opening up a ton of cap space so something like Kyrie, Frye, Shumpert for Bledsoe, Warren, Millsaps &/or Jones Jr . If the Suns truly did this without giving them say Dudley - this would save the Cavs like 15m in cap space so 60m in cash. But it means adding Shumpert next year without adding another contract so highly unlikely and if the Suns did this - no heat pick!

2) the more logical trade is Kyrie and Shumpert for Bledsoe, Chriss/Warren or Dudley/Chandler. In this type of deal Shumpert for Dudley is a wash. Suns can than take Richard Jefferson and Frye - if Len is renounced or signed - saving about 10m in cap and about 40m cash

I think this does add value to any trade with the Cavs - the ability to save Dan gilbert a boat load of cash

[lilfishi22]

OK, you're right, and you're actually using an argument I use about who is "called" PG isn't always necessarily the "point". But, even though Harden usually had the ball in his hands and was more the point guy than Beverley, he didn't truly transform into the MVP caliber type player he is until he played and bought into the D'Antoni system. He was the type of player that was not fun to watch whatsoever in his play style and it wasn't really "team" ball.

And if you read the players tribune article about him and D'Antoni watching Nash footage, Harden said he first though "I don't want to do SSOL" or something like that, but finally bought in, and that is when he took a major leap.

Kyrie has shared those duties with LeBron, but even before LeBron he never averaged more assists, and Lowe and others have since pointed out that when LeBron sat, his shot rate went to historic levels while he only had a slight uptick in assists...so he doesn't suddenly change if he is in charge. He still was surrounded by great shooters.

Since these guards (Kyrie, Booker) are all offense, no D, to REALLY maximize their effectiveness offensively in a sheer effort to outscore opponents, it would be interesting if D'Antoni was the coach and to see if those guys would buy in. Sometimes players do and sometimes they don't. Some players are just kind of stuck in their ways and resort to playing how they always have.

I do hope if we get him he really makes an effort to get everyone involved so everyone stays engaged on the floor. While I have my doubt about fit and whether he would like to stay long term, and how I like what we have going without him, and not wanting to give up too much, I know he is a premier talent and that players with his elite scoring skill don't come along too often.

And I agree with you that Harden was a very good passer but wasn't an elite level passer until D'Antoni came to town. But I don't expect MVP level passing from Irving. I was just trying to show that Harden with his now MVP level passing wasn't always that way even when he was running the show for years before D'Antoni was made coach.

I'm not going say I'm not a little bit concerned about the Cav's poor performance with Kyrie running point but they are also small samples on a team that's been drilled to run to spots and dives to the rim based on Lebron's ability to make those passes. If there was no Lebron on the team, I'd bet Kyrie's stats would go up and they'd be a good team but not anywhere near a Lebron/Irving team. The second half of that sentence is subjective but I think we could come to an agreement that Kyrie's stats would increase