Yeah! I'm really not digging their new changes/ format. They used to have a much better site layout too. But they do register interesting comps and prospect skillset analysis at times.
Mike – NBA Draft Room – @NBAdraftRoom – founded the site in 2009. Basketball junkie, draft nerd. Mock draft maker since 1992. A poor man’s T.J. McConnell.
Draft Room Contributors
Leader Johnson – @WriterLeader247 – writer, leader, draft analyst and Philly sports guru. Started writing for NBA Draft Room in 2017. Check out his Follow the Leader podcast.
Brandon – @AZSportsZone – Arizona sports, Suns, NBA draft content.
Daniel Kaufman – writing for the site since 2020.
Still some interesting takes on draft selections I'd think.
OK, I had the thought it could be the AZSportsZone guy.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah! I'm really not digging their new changes/ format. They used to have a much better site layout too. But they do register interesting comps and prospect skillset analysis at times.
If he continues to grow, I'd be interested. He is young. I'm just eager for playmaking, shooting and length. He's got a good wingspan, so... depends on how he projects.
bwgood77 wrote: Can't even tell who runs that site.
Yeah! I'm really not digging their new changes/ format. They used to have a much better site layout too. But they do register interesting comps and prospect skillset analysis at times.
Mike – NBA Draft Room – @NBAdraftRoom – founded the site in 2009. Basketball junkie, draft nerd. Mock draft maker since 1992. A poor man’s T.J. McConnell.
Draft Room Contributors
Leader Johnson – @WriterLeader247 – writer, leader, draft analyst and Philly sports guru. Started writing for NBA Draft Room in 2017. Check out his Follow the Leader podcast.
Brandon – @AZSportsZone – Arizona sports, Suns, NBA draft content.
Daniel Kaufman – writing for the site since 2020.
Still some interesting takes on draft selections I'd think.
Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah! I'm really not digging their new changes/ format. They used to have a much better site layout too. But they do register interesting comps and prospect skillset analysis at times.
Still some interesting takes on draft selections I'd think.
Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
I think there's a chance we reach at 10 for one of Smith, Reed, Nesmith or... someone else entirely. Personally I'm starting to think Poku might be a particularly good fit for our team in a couple years, but his selection would really surprise me.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote: Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
I think there's a chance we reach at 10 for one of Smith, Reed, Nesmith or... someone else entirely. Personally I'm starting to think Poku might be a particularly good fit for our team in a couple years, but his selection would really surprise me.
You're not wrong man! And Poku would check a lot of boxes for us in time. I do however have a strong gut feeling that the suns will target Saddiq Bey or Aaron Nesmith as their primary big man interests. Just strikes me as a typical James Jones reach prospects. But I Do absolutely prefer Reed or Smith above even Poku/ Bey or Nesmith for their defensive potential.
I'm really warming up to the idea of taking a swing on Terry in a trade back scenario. I really think that his elite shooting would create immense gravity, pulling opposing defenses out of the paint to open up the lanes for all of Booker, Oubre, And Ayton! That would provide us another really interesting dynamic. So currently, My top 3 guard preferences in a trade back scenario are Riller, Lewis, Terry. In no particular order honestly.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah! I'm really not digging their new changes/ format. They used to have a much better site layout too. But they do register interesting comps and prospect skillset analysis at times.
Still some interesting takes on draft selections I'd think.
Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
Kawhi Leonard comparison...lol...Kawhi is likely the biggest difference maker, two way player AND clutch player in the NBA. He could end up with 7 championships. The guy is a robot. Legit chance he finishes as top 10 player of all time. Heck, top 5 maybe as a non center behind Jordan, LeBron, Bird and Magic. If he ends up with 4 or 5 championships, I might put him ahead of Magic, and possibly LeBron...I am very high on Bird...I look at peaks more than longevity.
I think Kareem and Bird might be underrated in all time stuff...I think Kareem has a good argument for GOAT and Bird has a good argument for 3rd best all time...currently ahead of LeBron, but again I think of peak. If you add longevity, LeBron arguably is behind only Kareem.
Kareem was so good the practice squad he was on as a freshman beat UCLA's great team in scrimmages....and I think he won 4 championships in college...the guy was unstoppable..then he won like 6 NBA championships and a number of MVPs, and was the highest scorer ever, unless Karl Malone passed him.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote: Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
I think there's a chance we reach at 10 for one of Smith, Reed, Nesmith or... someone else entirely. Personally I'm starting to think Poku might be a particularly good fit for our team in a couple years, but his selection would really surprise me.
Been wondering what you would prefer....making the playoffs and getting swept embarrassingly, and drafting Kira Lewis due to lower draft spot..
or
Getting close but missing...giving us the first taste of almost making it, realizing every game counts, but staying at 10, instead of like 16, and getting Vassell.
I don't think we will take one of the guys you name unless we make the playoffs and draft lower.
Also, another question for you. Who would you take at #1? Lets assume you cannot trade down because no one wants to trade up, at least not a team in a place you like a guy would slide to.
To me, this is a very tough question. I want to say Toppin...the guy is a proven winner...a guy that makes his team infinitely better, and just simply wins. He has an array of offensive skills that is rare. Amare like finishing with the pick and roll...39% from 3 on decent volume...better than the top guards except maybe Halliburton...and so you have the defensive twitter scout takes...the thing is, this guy obviously works hard...his improvement from freshman to sophomore was huge. He still blocks shots. I am most confidence that he is the most sure thing, as an offensive difference maker that will translate...with so many others, you simply don't know....I think Toppin would work hard to learn to defend, in a way Ayton has...I think talking about his hips and all that, while maybe true so far, is overanalyzing and ignoring the likely probable for sure offensive impact...(I know I just went from likely to probable to for sure, but that is the range for me..I think he is a for sure rotation guy, probable starter, plays the game on offense the way that is valuable, and you mostly have defensive role playing specialists, and the biggest stars are offensive stars, outside of a few two way guys like George, Kawhi, Embiid, Butler, etc.
Even Avdija, who I like, but how sure is that? I think it's pretty solid, but not quite as solid as Toppin, though it's still close to a toss up.
Vassell is right there, but I do feel a PF, possible guy who can play 5 is a bigger need, though I can see the argument otherwise. I still think Bridges and even Cam can play the 2 if need be...their length would help..George and Kawhi guard the best players...the more height and length, if people can move, the better.
At this point, with the Suns past, I would put Halliburton 4th. I am unsure of upside, but pretty sure he is certainly a solid rotation player.
The others seem more like crapshoots. I do see appeal in Okongwu, and possibly Wiseman, but I don't think either is a good fit with Ayton...and I think Wiseman might slide, and if you were to take him, expecting to trade down and get an asset, that could backfire.....also, Is Okongwu REALLY a type of NBA player that typically thrives in the NBA? I like Clarke better, who went late obviously..but also obviously has shown he is the biggest impact player early from the draft...though I imagine that will change slightly at the top over time.
And Okongwu is younger, so there is an argument, but can he switch? Will he ever have range? Does he have the length to play C? Is he a starter> Are players like him important? More important that versatile players like my top 3 or 4?
I can't rank Ball or Hayes lower than 5 or 6 simply because they are consensus high ranked guys and we could use a PG, but neither can shoot...Hayes plays in a lower level league...are we positive as an upside? A big upside? Are these guys sure things? Did they lead their teams in a way that shows they are winners?
I will be pretty surprised if Toppin doesn't go top 5, or even top 3...and could go 1. He has shown he is a winner, he is about as versatile as a PF you can hope for...I can see the argument for Avdija, but he did play Euro and I am not sure he showed he is an absolute winner who leads his team and takes over. I would put him and Vassell together.
Now if at 10 and all those guys I named are gone, I really have no idea. I can understand the appeal on Poku, but too raw I think...and too skinny...
I think I might lean toward one of the Beys if we can't trade down.
I know, long post....address my earlier 2 questions first if you would, but also I'd like to hear your comments on anything else I said...and love to hear other opinions as well.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote: Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
Kawhi Leonard comparison...lol...Kawhi is likely the biggest difference maker, two way player AND clutch player in the NBA. He could end up with 7 championships. The guy is a robot. Legit chance he finishes as top 10 player of all time. Heck, top 5 maybe as a non center behind Jordan, LeBron, Bird and Magic. If he ends up with 4 or 5 championships, I might put him ahead of Magic, and possibly LeBron...I am very high on Bird...I look at peaks more than longevity.
I think Kareem and Bird might be underrated in all time stuff...I think Kareem has a good argument for GOAT and Bird has a good argument for 3rd best all time...currently ahead of LeBron, but again I think of peak. If you add longevity, LeBron arguably is behind only Kareem.
Kareem was so good the practice squad he was on as a freshman beat UCLA's great team in scrimmages....and I think he won 4 championships in college...the guy was unstoppable..then he won like 6 NBA championships and a number of MVPs, and was the highest scorer ever, unless Karl Malone passed him.
He was great in the move Airplane as well.
I agree with your takes on Kareem and Bird. Started watching some 'game film on Larry Bird some months ago (he was before my time) and what surprised me most was his quickness. Quick, sharp passes, quick release, quick moves to the basket. I knew his energy level was high just based on his production, but there's no doubt in my mind he'd be a straight killer in today's NBA.
As for Kawhi, I wouldn't go so far. For starters, he's firmly behind Duncan (if you don't consider him a center). I don't think he's likely to get ahead of Curry. Probably not Kobe, either. That Raptors team nearly lost to the Sixers, and faced the Warriors' bench in the finals. He's a great defender, and maybe the perfect guy to guard Jordan. But he's not a dominant offensive player like the other guys on the list and the statistical production doesn't blow you away. And if you're just looking at peak, there are other guys who enter the conversation, like Durant and even McGrady. What sets him apart is winning, but even there, it's hard to give him so much credit when you consider the teams he won with. Few thought he was the best player on that Spurs team. He left the Raptors for nothing and they're basically unchanged from a W/L perspective. We'll see how the rest of his career pans out, but I'd be shocked if he's perceived as a Top 10 player all-time.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote: Patrick Williams. Oof. He's none of the things I'm hoping for. I guess Mr. Kleen really digs him.
Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
Kawhi Leonard comparison...lol...Kawhi is likely the biggest difference maker, two way player AND clutch player in the NBA. He could end up with 7 championships. The guy is a robot. Legit chance he finishes as top 10 player of all time. Heck, top 5 maybe as a non center behind Jordan, LeBron, Bird and Magic. If he ends up with 4 or 5 championships, I might put him ahead of Magic, and possibly LeBron...I am very high on Bird...I look at peaks more than longevity.
I think Kareem and Bird might be underrated in all time stuff...I think Kareem has a good argument for GOAT and Bird has a good argument for 3rd best all time...currently ahead of LeBron, but again I think of peak. If you add longevity, LeBron arguably is behind only Kareem.
Kareem was so good the practice squad he was on as a freshman beat UCLA's great team in scrimmages....and I think he won 4 championships in college...the guy was unstoppable..then he won like 6 NBA championships and a number of MVPs, and was the highest scorer ever, unless Karl Malone passed him.
He was great in the move Airplane as well.
Agreed on all points man!
So what do you think about the Jeff Green or Patrick Patterson comparison? More reasonable perhaps? Or do you see another possible outcome that may be overlooked with him. All in all, I see a quality role player, maybe fringe starter with solid defensive versatility at best. So I don't get how some make that comparison honest! And this is obviously coming from someone who has a proclivity to attach some pretty lofty, maybe somewhat hyperbolic comps admittedly.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
I think there's a chance we reach at 10 for one of Smith, Reed, Nesmith or... someone else entirely. Personally I'm starting to think Poku might be a particularly good fit for our team in a couple years, but his selection would really surprise me.
Been wondering what you would prefer....making the playoffs and getting swept embarrassingly, and drafting Kira Lewis due to lower draft spot..
or
Getting close but missing...giving us the first taste of almost making it, realizing every game counts, but staying at 10, instead of like 16, and getting Vassell.
I don't think we will take one of the guys you name unless we make the playoffs and draft lower.
Also, another question for you. Who would you take at #1? Lets assume you cannot trade down because no one wants to trade up, at least not a team in a place you like a guy would slide to.
To me, this is a very tough question. I want to say Toppin...the guy is a proven winner...a guy that makes his team infinitely better, and just simply wins. He has an array of offensive skills that is rare. Amare like finishing with the pick and roll...39% from 3 on decent volume...better than the top guards except maybe Halliburton...and so you have the defensive twitter scout takes...the thing is, this guy obviously works hard...his improvement from freshman to sophomore was huge. He still blocks shots. I am most confidence that he is the most sure thing, as an offensive difference maker that will translate...with so many others, you simply don't know....I think Toppin would work hard to learn to defend, in a way Ayton has...I think talking about his hips and all that, while maybe true so far, is overanalyzing and ignoring the likely probable for sure offensive impact...(I know I just went from likely to probable to for sure, but that is the range for me..I think he is a for sure rotation guy, probable starter, plays the game on offense the way that is valuable, and you mostly have defensive role playing specialists, and the biggest stars are offensive stars, outside of a few two way guys like George, Kawhi, Embiid, Butler, etc.
Even Avdija, who I like, but how sure is that? I think it's pretty solid, but not quite as solid as Toppin, though it's still close to a toss up.
Vassell is right there, but I do feel a PF, possible guy who can play 5 is a bigger need, though I can see the argument otherwise. I still think Bridges and even Cam can play the 2 if need be...their length would help..George and Kawhi guard the best players...the more height and length, if people can move, the better.
At this point, with the Suns past, I would put Halliburton 4th. I am unsure of upside, but pretty sure he is certainly a solid rotation player.
The others seem more like crapshoots. I do see appeal in Okongwu, and possibly Wiseman, but I don't think either is a good fit with Ayton...and I think Wiseman might slide, and if you were to take him, expecting to trade down and get an asset, that could backfire.....also, Is Okongwu REALLY a type of NBA player that typically thrives in the NBA? I like Clarke better, who went late obviously..but also obviously has shown he is the biggest impact player early from the draft...though I imagine that will change slightly at the top over time.
And Okongwu is younger, so there is an argument, but can he switch? Will he ever have range? Does he have the length to play C? Is he a starter> Are players like him important? More important that versatile players like my top 3 or 4?
I can't rank Ball or Hayes lower than 5 or 6 simply because they are consensus high ranked guys and we could use a PG, but neither can shoot...Hayes plays in a lower level league...are we positive as an upside? A big upside? Are these guys sure things? Did they lead their teams in a way that shows they are winners?
I will be pretty surprised if Toppin doesn't go top 5, or even top 3...and could go 1. He has shown he is a winner, he is about as versatile as a PF you can hope for...I can see the argument for Avdija, but he did play Euro and I am not sure he showed he is an absolute winner who leads his team and takes over. I would put him and Vassell together.
Now if at 10 and all those guys I named are gone, I really have no idea. I can understand the appeal on Poku, but too raw I think...and too skinny...
I think I might lean toward one of the Beys if we can't trade down.
I know, long post....address my earlier 2 questions first if you would, but also I'd like to hear your comments on anything else I said...and love to hear other opinions as well.
Happy to see you coming around on the other Bey. As I've said, I wonder about his hand size, because if you want to be compared to Kawhi, you need mitts. But someone brought up FTA rate as an argument for Okoro a week or so ago, and while I wasn't able to find a NCAA-wide stat, I did notice that Tyler Bey's is substantially higher than anyone else I looked at (admittedly, I was examining only the wings). I know his advanced stats don't blow off the page the way Clarke's did, but I see similarities between the two in terms of their production on both sides of the ball, their age, and scouts apparent willingness not not give a **** about them.
As to your question, I wish I had answer off the top of my head, but I don't. I wouldn't consider Edwards (obviously) or Wiseman. It wouldn't be Avdija, and I prefer LaMelo to Hayes. And Vassell, while listed as a 2/3, looks like a Bridges/Thompson type, a guy who doesn't put it on the floor much or create for others, just gives you top notch 3&D. Hard to take a guy like that #1, though if you were going back to the 2011 draft, wouldn't you draft the defender (Kawhi) and the shooter (Thompson) first and second?
A buddy I discuss the draft with a lot would take Haliburton, and I see the argument there. I just worry about his frame, not only for what it means for his health, but his effectiveness at the NBA level. So for me it's down to LaMelo, Okongwu and Toppin. My head says Okongwu>Toppin due to age, but the fit difference really does seem enormous, and I agree with you about Toppin's work ethic. I guess I'd relent and take Toppin ahead of Okongwu due to fit. Toppin could be an incredible sixth man for us right off the bat. The biggest downside to drafting LaMelo, aside from the fact that he won't be a positive contributor on day 1, is that he might ruin my dream of sticking with Rubio for another 3 years after this contract expires. But in terms of long-term fit, I think LaMelo might be perfect.
I guess, gun to my head, I'd take Vassell, Avdija and maybe even Haliburton ahead of Okongwu, too, based on fit. So for me it's 1) LaMelo, 2) Toppin, 3) Vassell, 4) Avdija, 5) Haliburton, 6) Okongwu. Not positive Hayes belongs ahead of Pokusevski... heck, I might even prefer Poku to Okongwu. Onyeka's dropping on my board as I type! I guess fit is a bigger and bigger thing the closer we are to contention, and the bubble has shown me that we're really not that far off.
EDIT: One final note. Part of the reason I'm okay taking a raw prospect like Ball or Pokusevski is that I'm no longer pessimistic about our ability to develop players. Our coaching staff seems up to the task.
.... Though to be real, I wouldn't want the #1 pick in this draft - and not just because none of these guys are worth the selection. More because none of them are worth the salary. I guess if one of them was, it would be Obi Toppin. I also for whatever reason thought he was 23, not 22. So maybe all that considered, it's a pretty close call.
It's a tough question.
EDIT 2: OK, you got me. Toppin it is. I pray you're right about his defense. Would hate to draft a guy #1 who can't play NBA defense.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
Kawhi Leonard comparison...lol...Kawhi is likely the biggest difference maker, two way player AND clutch player in the NBA. He could end up with 7 championships. The guy is a robot. Legit chance he finishes as top 10 player of all time. Heck, top 5 maybe as a non center behind Jordan, LeBron, Bird and Magic. If he ends up with 4 or 5 championships, I might put him ahead of Magic, and possibly LeBron...I am very high on Bird...I look at peaks more than longevity.
I think Kareem and Bird might be underrated in all time stuff...I think Kareem has a good argument for GOAT and Bird has a good argument for 3rd best all time...currently ahead of LeBron, but again I think of peak. If you add longevity, LeBron arguably is behind only Kareem.
Kareem was so good the practice squad he was on as a freshman beat UCLA's great team in scrimmages....and I think he won 4 championships in college...the guy was unstoppable..then he won like 6 NBA championships and a number of MVPs, and was the highest scorer ever, unless Karl Malone passed him.
He was great in the move Airplane as well.
I agree with your takes on Kareem and Bird. Started watching some 'game film on Larry Bird some months ago (he was before my time) and what surprised me most was his quickness. Quick, sharp passes, quick release, quick moves to the basket. I knew his energy level was high just based on his production, but there's no doubt in my mind he'd be a straight killer in today's NBA.
As for Kawhi, I wouldn't go so far. For starters, he's firmly behind Duncan (if you don't consider him a center). I don't think he's likely to get ahead of Curry. Probably not Kobe, either. That Raptors team nearly lost to the Sixers, and faced the Warriors' bench in the finals. He's a great defender, and maybe the perfect guy to guard Jordan. But he's not a dominant offensive player like the other guys on the list and the statistical production doesn't blow you away. And if you're just looking at peak, there are other guys who enter the conversation, like Durant and even McGrady. What sets him apart is winning, but even there, it's hard to give him so much credit when you consider the teams he won with. Few thought he was the best player on that Spurs team. He left the Raptors for nothing and they're basically unchanged from a W/L perspective. We'll see how the rest of his career pans out, but I'd be shocked if he's perceived as a Top 10 player all-time.
I think Pop said he was the best player on that team. The thing about Kawhi is that he wins...refuses to lose..that Raptors team lacked confidence...every year...and even last year you felt they did, but Kawhi just carried them to win those series....he WON that Sixers series....he took Giannis out.
I'm not particularly high on Kobe...if Jordan or LeBron or any other superduperstar played with Shaq and then that other frontcourt, they win. Kobe, to me, was just a poor man's Jordan. He wasn't a good 3 pt shooter (under 33%), wasn't particularly a good 2 pt scorer (under 48%) even with the great moves at the basket...he was just the guy who took a lot of shots with Shaq, and who had some monster games because he wanted to take a lot of shots. Don't get me wrong, he was a great player, but not nearly at the level of a lot of the big names in my mind. I'd take Curry over him as a scorer zero question. I'd take Kawhi too...he's better at everything....53% from 2, over 38% from 3....he just shoots less. Kobe was a little better passer, but played with Shaq too for easy assists for almost half his career, and then Gasol/Odom/Bynum.
KD and Curry are interesting too vs Kawhi. I take KD over Kobe as a scorer or overall offensive guy easily too. KD kind of choked until he joined an already championship team though. Curry is the most clutch player ever, other than maybe Bird. Lillard is up there too. I consider Duncan a C.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
Kawhi Leonard comparison...lol...Kawhi is likely the biggest difference maker, two way player AND clutch player in the NBA. He could end up with 7 championships. The guy is a robot. Legit chance he finishes as top 10 player of all time. Heck, top 5 maybe as a non center behind Jordan, LeBron, Bird and Magic. If he ends up with 4 or 5 championships, I might put him ahead of Magic, and possibly LeBron...I am very high on Bird...I look at peaks more than longevity.
I think Kareem and Bird might be underrated in all time stuff...I think Kareem has a good argument for GOAT and Bird has a good argument for 3rd best all time...currently ahead of LeBron, but again I think of peak. If you add longevity, LeBron arguably is behind only Kareem.
Kareem was so good the practice squad he was on as a freshman beat UCLA's great team in scrimmages....and I think he won 4 championships in college...the guy was unstoppable..then he won like 6 NBA championships and a number of MVPs, and was the highest scorer ever, unless Karl Malone passed him.
He was great in the move Airplane as well.
Agreed on all points man!
So what do you think about the Jeff Green or Patrick Patterson comparison? More reasonable perhaps? Or do you see another possible outcome that may be overlooked with him. All in all, I see a quality role player, maybe fringe starter with solid defensive versatility at best. So I don't get how some make that comparison honest! And this is obviously coming from someone who has a proclivity to attach some pretty lofty, maybe somewhat hyperbolic comps admittedly.
I have no idea...I haven't watched him really. The draft is still almost 3 months away...and I don't for sure know where we pick. I just have a pretty good idea he's not as good as Kawhi...those are probably better comparisons.
Ghost of Kleine wrote: Yeah, I think he'll eventually be a solid Jeff Green / slightly more athletic Patrick Patterson type of role player. He definitely has decent strength and versatility, But I just can't see the Kwahi Leonard comparison. Overall outside of the lottery, In a trade back scenario, I prefer Jalen Smith ( 1), Paul Reed (2) maybe even equal to Smith at 1, depending upon combine results, etc. And then Precious Achiuwa ( 3) Killian Tillie ( 4), and Isiah Stewart ( 5).
I think there's a chance we reach at 10 for one of Smith, Reed, Nesmith or... someone else entirely. Personally I'm starting to think Poku might be a particularly good fit for our team in a couple years, but his selection would really surprise me.
Been wondering what you would prefer....making the playoffs and getting swept embarrassingly, and drafting Kira Lewis due to lower draft spot..
or
Getting close but missing...giving us the first taste of almost making it, realizing every game counts, but staying at 10, instead of like 16, and getting Vassell.
I don't think we will take one of the guys you name unless we make the playoffs and draft lower.
Also, another question for you. Who would you take at #1? Lets assume you cannot trade down because no one wants to trade up, at least not a team in a place you like a guy would slide to.
To me, this is a very tough question. I want to say Toppin...the guy is a proven winner...a guy that makes his team infinitely better, and just simply wins. He has an array of offensive skills that is rare. Amare like finishing with the pick and roll...39% from 3 on decent volume...better than the top guards except maybe Halliburton...and so you have the defensive twitter scout takes...the thing is, this guy obviously works hard...his improvement from freshman to sophomore was huge. He still blocks shots. I am most confidence that he is the most sure thing, as an offensive difference maker that will translate...with so many others, you simply don't know....I think Toppin would work hard to learn to defend, in a way Ayton has...I think talking about his hips and all that, while maybe true so far, is overanalyzing and ignoring the likely probable for sure offensive impact...(I know I just went from likely to probable to for sure, but that is the range for me..I think he is a for sure rotation guy, probable starter, plays the game on offense the way that is valuable, and you mostly have defensive role playing specialists, and the biggest stars are offensive stars, outside of a few two way guys like George, Kawhi, Embiid, Butler, etc.
Even Avdija, who I like, but how sure is that? I think it's pretty solid, but not quite as solid as Toppin, though it's still close to a toss up.
Vassell is right there, but I do feel a PF, possible guy who can play 5 is a bigger need, though I can see the argument otherwise. I still think Bridges and even Cam can play the 2 if need be...their length would help..George and Kawhi guard the best players...the more height and length, if people can move, the better.
At this point, with the Suns past, I would put Halliburton 4th. I am unsure of upside, but pretty sure he is certainly a solid rotation player.
The others seem more like crapshoots. I do see appeal in Okongwu, and possibly Wiseman, but I don't think either is a good fit with Ayton...and I think Wiseman might slide, and if you were to take him, expecting to trade down and get an asset, that could backfire.....also, Is Okongwu REALLY a type of NBA player that typically thrives in the NBA? I like Clarke better, who went late obviously..but also obviously has shown he is the biggest impact player early from the draft...though I imagine that will change slightly at the top over time.
And Okongwu is younger, so there is an argument, but can he switch? Will he ever have range? Does he have the length to play C? Is he a starter> Are players like him important? More important that versatile players like my top 3 or 4?
I can't rank Ball or Hayes lower than 5 or 6 simply because they are consensus high ranked guys and we could use a PG, but neither can shoot...Hayes plays in a lower level league...are we positive as an upside? A big upside? Are these guys sure things? Did they lead their teams in a way that shows they are winners?
I will be pretty surprised if Toppin doesn't go top 5, or even top 3...and could go 1. He has shown he is a winner, he is about as versatile as a PF you can hope for...I can see the argument for Avdija, but he did play Euro and I am not sure he showed he is an absolute winner who leads his team and takes over. I would put him and Vassell together.
Now if at 10 and all those guys I named are gone, I really have no idea. I can understand the appeal on Poku, but too raw I think...and too skinny...
I think I might lean toward one of the Beys if we can't trade down.
I know, long post....address my earlier 2 questions first if you would, but also I'd like to hear your comments on anything else I said...and love to hear other opinions as well.[/quote]
I'd for my part prefer to make the playoffs, Even at the expense of getting a lower pick! But then I'd prefer any of Lewis, RILLER, Terry, Smith, Reed, Achiuwa, All of which will probably still be options after the 19th pick. And the playoff experience would prove invaluable to our young players development, As well as to make us look more appealing to a higher tier of free agents too. Toppin I think that with Toppin, His defense will definitely improve, And the concern over his movement and hip mobility may be overemphasized by teams unreasonably, And/or with intent to quelch potential interest and cause him to drop to a team that potentially is coveting him. He'd definitely be number 1 on my board for a 4/5 option. I look at the fact that he has elite athleticism, and elite vertical burst, As well as the fact that prior to his growth spurt, he was a guard. So he should have some semblance of guard skills ( as evidenced by his passing skillset), potential for solid mobility and fluidity. I believe that by his 3rd year, he'll improve to become a plus defender and a fringe All star heading into his 3rd-4th year in the league depending upon the situation of course. *** I'd take Toppin 1-5 easily, And don't see any way he honestly fall to 10 for us. I think he's gone by 7-8.
Avdija I really like Avdija for his versatility, passing and defensive energy potentially. I see him as a solid rotational utility player that would occasionally make big impact plays on both sides of the court, And may have top of the rotation potential, But will need to really increase his shooting and strength in order to garner all star consideration. I would only consider him IF we are committed to moving Oubre. And would thusly play him as a frontcourt utility playmaker. But would have Poku rated slightly higher, Due to his immense potential. And better shooting skillset. I'd take Avdija in the 6-10 range. But believe either New York or Chicago will grab him for sure!
Vassell I'd have Vassell top 5 honestly due to his tremendous 2 way potential, and overall defensive versatility. I really love the idea of having two rangy perimeter defenders in Bridges and Vassell completely locking down the perimeter and creating havoc for opposing offenses. I'd take Vassell anywhere between 5-10, But don't see him lasting till 10, And can even see Atlanta taking him top 5, IF they don't find a trade back scenario for an established veteran contributor at the 2/3 position.
Wiseman Originally, Wiseman seemed pretty redundant for me, And thusly, A pretty bad fit. However, As I proposed a while back, With Ayton now showing expanded range to the three, And given his impressive mobility and fluidity, I can see the potential for him to spend time at the 4, in a similar role to a LaMarcus Aldridge. And then Wiseman would focus solely on the defensive end in a Hassan Whiteside type of role. Having said that, I would primarily draft him with the express intent to flip him in a trade back scenario to get an established veteran guard and additional assets. A couple teams that have a definite need for a center later in the draft, And are looking to compete could be: - San Antonio. Flip him for Derrick White/ Luka Samanic/ and the 11th pick? San Antonio loves defense and Duncan and Pop could groom Wiseman to be their next great defensive big man!
- Sacramento. Flip Wiseman for Bagley and the 12th pick. Or for Bjelica/ Justin James/12th and 35th pick. Or maybe even Bjelica/ Bogdan / 35th/ 40th picks. Sacramento hasn't really had the anticipated success with Bagley as their big man option as what they hoped for. But Wiseman would offer a huge upgrade to their frontcourt.
Boston Flip Wiseman to them for Marcus Smart/ 17th / 25th pick. Boston would kill to get a potential defensive anchor in Wiseman. Right now they only have a center by committee option.
Dallas Flip Wiseman for Delon Wright/ 18th/ 31st picks. The Mavs would love to get Wiseman to be their center and be able to move Porzingis to the 4. Cuban loves big defensive centers such as Chandler, Jordan, etc.
Okungwu I like Okungwu, And think he's got really good potential switchability. Especially in the pick n' roll. As for his perimeter shooting, Whilst playing at Chino Hills, He did show the potential to have a perimeter shooting skillset.
Albeit on a small sample size. So I do believe that he can improve his offensive skillset even out to the 3 once further developed in a professional environment.
I would agree that BOTH Ball and Hayes should be top 5 prospects easily. And with Haliburton I see his range being maybe 5-12 realistically. But again see no conceivable way that all of Atlanta/ Detroit/ Chicago/ New York/ Charlotte/ all pass on him. One of those teams will likely take him before 10. And at 10 or after, it depends primarily upon which position we prioritize higher. For my part, I'd go with a guard. And then look to add a later pick for a frontcourt big. At 10, The guards on my board are: Kira Lewis ( 1) , Grant Riller ( 2), Tyrell Terry ( 3) Malachi Flynn ( 5), Tre Jones ( 6). And IF we prioritize a Big: Jalen Smith/ Paul Reed ( tied at 1, Due to Reeds improved development recently), Precious Achiuwa ( 2), Pokusevski (3) Reggie Perry (4), then Saddiq Bey ( 5). *** If Poku, I'd look to trade Oubre to a team for a really solid veteran backup guard and additional assets. And then play Poku at the backup 3/4 primarily as an oversized wing two way utility playmaker and defensive compliment. Or IF possible, with keeping Oubre, As a two way player/ defensive compliment to Oubre. Using his size on the perimeter to create mismatches? Lastly, IF we miss out on Vassell at 10, I also love the idea of Tyler Bey ( in a trade back scenario, As he's the best versatile defender left on the board, And is an ELITE DEFENDER that can still have a tremendous impact without needing the ball in his hands. So he'd be an incredible defensive compliment to Bookers', Oubres' , and Aytons' offense. Plus he has the defensive potential to switch between 1- 4, and even 5 on some occasions. I'd see him as the ultimate value option for adding another versatile utility defender. Also Paul Reed, Given his recent improvements to his game, Would be an absolute steal of the draft in that regard. And would offer ultimate defensive switchability after Vassell.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:If we draft Poku, he'll live on the bench for at least half a season, and probably more like one-and-a-half - and that's being optimistic.
I could live with that, Whilst keeping Oubre and the majority of our core together. But will ADAMANTLY have Reed and Smith over him. Reed for overall versatility and upside, And Smith for his two way potential and advanced offensive skillset.
Also, outside of the first round, Reggie Perry has solid Adebayo potential, As the comparison has been frequently made, Mainly due to his size and versatility. But the downside is that he's reportedly also got quite an ego too! But I'd maybe have him over Poku for his being 6'10 250 lbs with an advanced ball handling skillset and solid strength and great rebounding. If he can curb his ego, he could have a huge impact in time. I actually see more instances of Chris Webber with him personally, As Bam is more athletic and explosive. But both are pretty smooth and versatile initiators with the ball in their hands.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:If we draft Poku, he'll live on the bench for at least half a season, and probably more like one-and-a-half - and that's being optimistic.
I could live with that, Whilst keeping Oubre and the majority of our core together. But will ADAMANTLY have Reed and Smith over him. Reed for overall versatility and upside, And Smith for his two way potential and advanced offensive skillset. Also, outside of the first round, Reggie Perry has tremendous Adebayo potential, But the downside is that he's reportedly also got quite an ego too! But I'd maybe have him over Poku for his being 6'10 250 lbs with an advanced ball handling skillset and solid strength and great rebounding. If he can curb his ego, he could have a huge impact in time.
I didn't take a very close look at Reggie Perry. I forget was turned me off, but I'll take another look.
I could see us going Jalen Smith at #10, but if we want him, maybe we can trade back. He should be able to slot into that Aron Baynes role within a year or two. His shot is real and we love shooters. Seems like a really mature kid to me, as well.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:If we draft Poku, he'll live on the bench for at least half a season, and probably more like one-and-a-half - and that's being optimistic.
I could live with that, Whilst keeping Oubre and the majority of our core together. But will ADAMANTLY have Reed and Smith over him. Reed for overall versatility and upside, And Smith for his two way potential and advanced offensive skillset. Also, outside of the first round, Reggie Perry has tremendous Adebayo potential, But the downside is that he's reportedly also got quite an ego too! But I'd maybe have him over Poku for his being 6'10 250 lbs with an advanced ball handling skillset and solid strength and great rebounding. If he can curb his ego, he could have a huge impact in time.
I didn't take a very close look at Reggie Perry. I forget was turned me off, but I'll take another look.
I could see us going Jalen Smith at #10, but if we want him, maybe we can trade back. He should be able to slot into that Aron Baynes role within a year or two. His shot is real and we love shooters. Seems like a really mature kid to me, as well.
I didn't take a very close look at Reggie Perry. I forget was turned me off, but I'll take another look.
A lot of people are turned off by his less than stellar defense for his size an immense strength. He's an elite rebounder, And his super tenacious and relentless in the post. But he for whatever reason doesn't block many shots, And could have such a greater impact defensively, IF only he committed himself more to it. Having said that, I'd still have Reed and Smith before him on my board after 10. Also becoming more intrigued by Isiah Stewart's improvement as well. But Jalen Smith and Paul Reed ( outside of Toppin and/ or Okungwu) are my top big options!
Watching Cam Payne makes me more interested in Kira Lewis. Speed and quickness are huge skills for how the suns want to play and how the NBA is played in general these days. It puts so much pressure on a D.
Counterpoint would be something BW brought up about PGs taking time to develop and guys not making an impact on the teams who draft them. Maybe they are better off just going with Cam who's already taken the young PG lumps.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
I was just refreshing myself on how the bubble affects the draft lottery (see here: https://www.si.com/nba/2020/06/16/nba-draft-2020-schedule-dates) and I realized that it's inadvertently brilliant. The way it works is that draft odds for the 14 teams that don't make the playoffs (post-bubble) are determined by their pre-bubble records. So for us, for example, even if we pass a few teams in our bubble quest to make the playoffs, if we fall short we still get the 10th best odds in the lottery.
So here's the brilliant part: they should mimic this every year. On lottery day, or maybe at some point before that, there's one extra drawing to randomly determine a date in between the trade deadline and the end of the season, and then everyone's draft odds are based on their regular season records through that random date. So tanking at the end of the season is totally disincentivized. The only situation where it would make sense is if you went on a late-season tear like we are doing now, but a) tanking is way less likely when you're making a legit playoff push, and b) there's no guarantee that you'll be rewarded anyway, because the date drawn could end up being one of the last few days of the season.
I guess there could still be some mid-season pre-trade-deadline tanking incentive, but with the flattened odds and the arbitrary date, you'd really have to go full Hinkie and tank all season to have any assurance that it would help much.
Another counterargument would likely come from teams that had really hard late-season schedules, so their records for lottery purposes would be sort of inflated. But as it stands there are those games we've been discussing where playoff teams rest their players at the end of the season, so to some extent it works both ways.
But I'd maybe have him over Poku for his being 6'10 250 lbs with an advanced ball handling skillset and solid strength and great rebounding. If he can curb his ego, he could have a huge impact in time. I actually see more instances of Chris Webber with him personally, As Bam is more athletic and explosive. But both are pretty smooth and versatile initiators with the ball in their hands.