The 2016 Offseason Thread

[thamadkant]

Read on Twitter

That was a great interview. We better keep him on that deal. Without a doubt keep him ahead of Goodwin. Not only is he a better player, but he really seems like he is a big addition to the locker room and would really help guys like Bender and Chriss.

lol

Better player?


You assume shooter mneans better player... gotcha.

[Frank Lee]

The signing of Barbasoso should be a clear indicator of how the FO values both Goodwin and Jenkins.


Any word on Chriss' illness ?

[darealjuice]

Read on Twitter

That was a great interview. We better keep him on that deal. Without a doubt keep him ahead of Goodwin. Not only is he a better player, but he really seems like he is a big addition to the locker room and would really help guys like Bender and Chriss.

lol

Better player?


You assume shooter mneans better player... gotcha.

Lol why do you act like it's unthinkable? Archie is a pretty damn bad basketball player at this point in his career and hasn't improved a lick in 3 years. He can't shoot, can't defend anyone, has average/below average ball handling skills, doesn't distribute the ball well, turns the ball over at a high rate, and is an overall low iq player. The only thing about his game that's above average is the same thing he's had going for him since he was drafted, he's athletic, can finish pretty well at the rim, and is pretty long for his position. He really doesn't offer any more value to this team than Jenkins does at this point.

[GetYourPHX]

That was a great interview. We better keep him on that deal. Without a doubt keep him ahead of Goodwin. Not only is he a better player, but he really seems like he is a big addition to the locker room and would really help guys like Bender and Chriss.

lol

Better player?


You assume shooter mneans better player... gotcha.

Lol why do you act like it's unthinkable? Archie is a pretty damn bad basketball player at this point in his career and hasn't improved a lick in 3 years. He can't shoot, can't defend anyone, has average/below average ball handling skills, doesn't distribute the ball well, turns the ball over at a high rate, and is an overall low iq player. The only thing about his game that's above average is the same thing he's had going for him since he was drafted, he's athletic, can finish pretty well at the rim, and is pretty long for his position. He really doesn't offer any more value to this team than Jenkins does at this point.

This board just needs to calm their collective tits regarding Archie Goodwin. He looks like a typical young NBA prospect, no more no less. He's proven time and time again that he, at the very least, belongs in the NBA. He might never be more than an end of the bench player, but the guy is only 21 years old. The Suns aren't exactly in a situation where jettisoning a young prospect for basically no return makes a lot of sense. Just be patient with the kid.

It seems to be a trend with Suns fans. You guys give up on young players so fast, just relax. Remember what happened with guys like Robin Lopez. Sometimes it just takes a guy a while to get it.

It's OK if he doesn't get a ton of minutes this year. Next year he'll still only be 22 years old.

[Zelaznyrules]

lol

Better player?


You assume shooter mneans better player... gotcha.

Lol why do you act like it's unthinkable? Archie is a pretty damn bad basketball player at this point in his career and hasn't improved a lick in 3 years. He can't shoot, can't defend anyone, has average/below average ball handling skills, doesn't distribute the ball well, turns the ball over at a high rate, and is an overall low iq player. The only thing about his game that's above average is the same thing he's had going for him since he was drafted, he's athletic, can finish pretty well at the rim, and is pretty long for his position. He really doesn't offer any more value to this team than Jenkins does at this point.

This board just needs to calm their collective tits regarding Archie Goodwin. He looks like a typical young NBA prospect, no more no less. He's proven time and time again that he, at the very least, belongs in the NBA. He might never be more than an end of the bench player, but the guy is only 21 years old. The Suns aren't exactly in a situation where jettisoning a young prospect for basically no return makes a lot of sense. Just be patient with the kid.

It seems to be a trend with Suns fans. You guys give up on young players so fast, just relax. Remember what happened with guys like Robin Lopez. Sometimes it just takes a guy a while to get it.

It's OK if he doesn't get a ton of minutes this year. Next year he'll still only be 22 years old.

I think you miss the problem with Archie. Archie is a great player when the defense assumes he's just another guy and a waste of space when the opponent takes away his strength. So when he plays pickup ball (D League, Summer League, Sacramento Kings at the end of the season etc) he shines and when we need him, he disappears. But he thinks of himself as that garbage time superstar. And the gap between who he really is as a player and who he thinks he is has already created a rift between him and the front office. Even if he finally becomes that player he's never going to accept the way this team has (justifiably) treated him.

[bigfoot]

lol

Better player?


You assume shooter mneans better player... gotcha.

Lol why do you act like it's unthinkable? Archie is a pretty damn bad basketball player at this point in his career and hasn't improved a lick in 3 years. He can't shoot, can't defend anyone, has average/below average ball handling skills, doesn't distribute the ball well, turns the ball over at a high rate, and is an overall low iq player. The only thing about his game that's above average is the same thing he's had going for him since he was drafted, he's athletic, can finish pretty well at the rim, and is pretty long for his position. He really doesn't offer any more value to this team than Jenkins does at this point.

This board just needs to calm their collective tits regarding Archie Goodwin. He looks like a typical young NBA prospect, no more no less. He's proven time and time again that he, at the very least, belongs in the NBA. He might never be more than an end of the bench player, but the guy is only 21 years old. The Suns aren't exactly in a situation where jettisoning a young prospect for basically no return makes a lot of sense. Just be patient with the kid.

It seems to be a trend with Suns fans. You guys give up on young players so fast, just relax. Remember what happened with guys like Robin Lopez. Sometimes it just takes a guy a while to get it.

It's OK if he doesn't get a ton of minutes this year. Next year he'll still only be 22 years old.

A typical young prospect is 18-19 year old just drafted with 1-year of college under their belts. Archie is equivalent to a player that spent four years in college (22-year old). When teams draft 22 year old players the thought is they are mature enough and know the game well enough they can contribute right away. They are typically less athletic but are fundamental sound and have a high basketball IQ. That's certainly not the case with Archie. We have seen him flounder for three years in the NBA and he is by far and by the numbers the worst two guard in the league. As Frank mentioned, if the front office had any faith in Archie then Barbosa wouldn't have been signed. Really Jenkins over Archie make much more sense.

[darealjuice]

lol

Better player?


You assume shooter mneans better player... gotcha.

Lol why do you act like it's unthinkable? Archie is a pretty damn bad basketball player at this point in his career and hasn't improved a lick in 3 years. He can't shoot, can't defend anyone, has average/below average ball handling skills, doesn't distribute the ball well, turns the ball over at a high rate, and is an overall low iq player. The only thing about his game that's above average is the same thing he's had going for him since he was drafted, he's athletic, can finish pretty well at the rim, and is pretty long for his position. He really doesn't offer any more value to this team than Jenkins does at this point.

This board just needs to calm their collective tits regarding Archie Goodwin. He looks like a typical young NBA prospect, no more no less. He's proven time and time again that he, at the very least, belongs in the NBA. He might never be more than an end of the bench player, but the guy is only 21 years old. The Suns aren't exactly in a situation where jettisoning a young prospect for basically no return makes a lot of sense. Just be patient with the kid.

It seems to be a trend with Suns fans. You guys give up on young players so fast, just relax. Remember what happened with guys like Robin Lopez. Sometimes it just takes a guy a while to get it.

It's OK if he doesn't get a ton of minutes this year. Next year he'll still only be 22 years old.

I'm not giving up on anyone, I just expected to see a bit more development by now from a guy that's going into the last year of his rookie contract. He's still young, but this is going to be his fourth year in the NBA, I don't really consider a guy in the league for that long to still be a prospect. Either way, my entire point is that it's not crazy to think Jenkins is a better basketball player than him.

As far as Lopez, it's pretty well known that bigs generally have a more difficult transition, which is why I (and a lot of people) have had more patience with Alex Len's development. Archie's biggest problems are his shooting and his basketball IQ. Shooting is typically regarded as one of the easier problems to fix going in the NBA, and he still hasn't shown consistency shooting after 3 years of time to develop a shot. On the other hand, Basketball IQ is very difficult to develop as a pro, especially when you barely see the court, and it definitely shows that he's still not where he needs to be there. I don't mind if we give him another year and maybe keep him around if he's cheap, but I won't be surprised if he's bounced. He was barely seeing the court last year until literally every guard went down and went back to that when Price and Knight came back.

[Cutter]

Watch on YouTube

Regardless of any other moves or trades he has made since becoming GM, McBigBalls should get an extension just as a reward for spotting talent at the #13 pick in the draft and taking Devin Booker.

[OGBAH]

Max extension tommorow for Book

[saintEscaton]

Booker is basically gunna be a healthy Beal

[NTB]

Booker is basically gunna be a healthy Beal

I don't know if Beal can make plays for his teammates like Booker. Booker's passing is underrated IMO.

[saintEscaton]

Booker is basically gunna be a healthy Beal

I don't know if Beal can make plays for his teammates like Booker. Booker's passing is underrated IMO.

Beal can also run a second unit in a pinch, throw lobs and make pocket passes he doesn't have to often cauz he plays next to Wall. Booker will probably be a better pure shooter with a wetter midrange J, but Beal has proven to be a plus defender when locked in. Booker flashed some lead guard intangibles but he's no wizard with the ball/Ginobli.

[bwgood77]

Booker is basically gunna be a healthy Beal

I don't know if Beal can make plays for his teammates like Booker. Booker's passing is underrated IMO.

Beal can also run a second unit in a pinch, throw lobs and make pocket passes he doesn't have to often cauz he plays next to Wall. Booker will probably be a better pure shooter with a wetter midrange J, but Beal has proven to be a plus defender when locked in. Booker flashed some lead guard intangibles but he's no wizard with the ball/Ginobli.

Trying to compare to Ginobili at this point is a little ridiculous, though Ginobili wasn't THAT much better offensively as a rookie, even being six years older (which is pretty significant). Ginobili better at finishing around the rim, but Booker better offensively and similar as a passer as a rook, despite enormous age discrepancy. http://bkref.com/tiny/riDpj

I think in five years Booker should be far ahead of where Ginobili was at age 25.

He was better offensively than Beal as a rook, but Beal was quite a bit better defensively.

[letsgosuns]

I am still interested in giving Goodwin a shot but his biggest problem is that he is not a good shooter. It is not possible to be a guard in the league if you cannot shoot. He has fantastic athleticism and is excellent at getting to the hoop and drawing fouls. However, there were multiple times in the second half of last season where the Suns would run a play, pass it to Goodwin for an open shot, and then he passed up the shot. Once he did that, it ruined the play and the team had to scramble to figure out something else very quickly. Usually it ended up in a bad shot. It would have been better if Goodwin took the shot and missed rather than not shoot it at all.

Also, I do not know why people are throwing out comparisons for Booker. Let's not jump to conclusions on who he resembles the most. All we know is that he is a potential rising star and other players and coaches have enormous respect for him already.

[saintEscaton]

I don't know if Beal can make plays for his teammates like Booker. Booker's passing is underrated IMO.

Beal can also run a second unit in a pinch, throw lobs and make pocket passes he doesn't have to often cauz he plays next to Wall. Booker will probably be a better pure shooter with a wetter midrange J, but Beal has proven to be a plus defender when locked in. Booker flashed some lead guard intangibles but he's no wizard with the ball/Ginobli.

Trying to compare to Ginobili at this point is a little ridiculous, though Ginobili wasn't THAT much better offensively as a rookie, even being six years older (which is pretty significant). Ginobili better at finishing around the rim, but Booker better offensively and similar as a passer as a rook, despite enormous age discrepancy. http://bkref.com/tiny/riDpj

I think in five years Booker should be far ahead of where Ginobili was at age 25.

He was better offensively than Beal as a rook, but Beal was quite a bit better defensively.

Booker wasn't really better than Beal who is about replacement level as a rookie , Booker was a net negative, about the same eFG%/ORTG, worse OBPM and shot about 4% worse on 30 more attemptsfrom deep. Booker posted better volume aggregate scoring numbers because he had a hgher usage rate, Beal I guess had the benefit of playing with a third year Wall who was coming into his own but the Wizards were a 29 win team so just about as bad as us. Agreed GInobli was a late bloomer but I think he could have been Hardenesque if he was feautured somewher else, he bought into the system and allowed Pop to reel him in as a 6th man. But yeah Booker was probably better at 19. I'm just saying Booker is nowwhere near as gifted as a technical passer, DLois about the same age(who I'm not even that high on) is closer with his lazer court vision/ability to thread the needle. I remember his half court bounce pass against us reminiscent of Magic.

[saintEscaton]

Goodwin's only redeeming trait is his unselfishness, he at least tried to run the point and collapse a D and kickout unlike Knight pounding the rock at the top of the key. However his s jumper is still broken as ever, despite fixing that unsightly hitch at the top, an AST/TO ratio that didn't break even and the worst DPRM among all SGs, edging out Booker. He's gunna be out of the league after his rookie deal is up, his free throw rate is nothing special, and doesn't convert well when he gets to the line and isn't an eliteat taking it to the rack

[bwgood77]

I am still interested in giving Goodwin a shot but his biggest problem is that he is not a good shooter. It is not possible to be a guard in the league if you cannot shoot. He has fantastic athleticism and is excellent at getting to the hoop and drawing fouls. However, there were multiple times in the second half of last season where the Suns would run a play, pass it to Goodwin for an open shot, and then he passed up the shot. Once he did that, it ruined the play and the team had to scramble to figure out something else very quickly. Usually it ended up in a bad shot. It would have been better if Goodwin took the shot and missed rather than not shoot it at all.

Also, I do not know why people are throwing out comparisons for Booker. Let's not jump to conclusions on who he resembles the most. All we know is that he is a potential rising star and other players and coaches have enormous respect for him already.

I agree with comparisons for Booker. I mean the guy is 19 and is still one of the youngest guys in the league and maybe all rookie first team being the youngest guy in the league. To pigeon hole him at this point doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I can't think of a real good comparison, mainly because he really hasn't played with many real legit nba players yet. Put him out there with Bledsoe, Warren and Dudley, that is 3 guys who can probably shoot near 40% combined from 3, so opposing teams can't leave anyone open. The defense at the wing positions would suffer, but that matters less if you simply shoot better than the opposing team.

As D'Antoni used to say (when someone asked him about his defense after a game they won) "Well tonight we had the best defense on the floor."

As for Goodwin, I'm fine keeping him and Jenkins this year, though we are super heavy at the guard spots. Jenkins has more value as a player in today's nba. I won't give up on Goodwin, but if we HAD to cut someone to sign a center, or at least make him inactive, he'd be the first on my list.

Like you said, if you can't shoot as a guard, you are useless, especially if you can't defend. He's had like 5 good games in 3 years, usually against bad teams in garbage time.

But the main thing is the attitude. It doesn't seem all that positive and seems worlds apart from Jenkins. We don't need any more negativity regarding playing situations, and his is likely not going to change. His agent HAS to be looking and hoping for a trade, because he needs to prove himself at least a little before next summer, and he could get a contract since teams could low ball him which could be important with the rising cap and he might accept.

[bwgood77]

Beal can also run a second unit in a pinch, throw lobs and make pocket passes he doesn't have to often cauz he plays next to Wall. Booker will probably be a better pure shooter with a wetter midrange J, but Beal has proven to be a plus defender when locked in. Booker flashed some lead guard intangibles but he's no wizard with the ball/Ginobli.

Trying to compare to Ginobili at this point is a little ridiculous, though Ginobili wasn't THAT much better offensively as a rookie, even being six years older (which is pretty significant). Ginobili better at finishing around the rim, but Booker better offensively and similar as a passer as a rook, despite enormous age discrepancy. http://bkref.com/tiny/riDpj

I think in five years Booker should be far ahead of where Ginobili was at age 25.

He was better offensively than Beal as a rook, but Beal was quite a bit better defensively.

Booker wasn't really better than Beal who is about replacement level as a rookie , Booker was a net negative, about the same eFG%/ORTG, worse OBPM and shot about 4% worse on 30 more attemptsfrom deep. Booker posted better volume aggregate scoring numbers because he had a hgher usage rate, Beal I guess had the benefit of playing with a second year Wall who still hadn't come into his own and the Wizards were a 29 win team so jus about as bad as us. Agreed GInobli was a late bloomer but I think he could have been Hardenesque if he was feautured somewher else, he bought into the system and allowed Pop to reel him in as a 6th man. But yeah Booker was probably better at 19. I'm just saying Booker is nowwhere near as gifted as a technical passer, DLois about the same age(who I'm not even that high on) is closer with his lazer court vision/ability to thread the needle. I remember his half court bounce pass against us reminiscent of Magic.

I think it is very overlooked by some and people looking at Booker's raw stats having not watched him much and knowing he played with crap units and never a guy like John Wall (not sure if you watch him) but he without a doubt passes the eye test and rarely does anything stupidly on offense, which is saying something for his age. He already seems to have better instincts than most everyone else on our team.

As for comparing him to Russell, I'm not going to make an early judgement, but even if there is an argument, that is impressive since Russell was considered to be one of the top tier talents in the draft. Who knows with them? I haven't watched Russell enough to have a very good eye test opinion of him so I won't start arguing Booker is better.

[NaturalBuns]

Lol why do you act like it's unthinkable? Archie is a pretty damn bad basketball player at this point in his career and hasn't improved a lick in 3 years. He can't shoot, can't defend anyone, has average/below average ball handling skills, doesn't distribute the ball well, turns the ball over at a high rate, and is an overall low iq player. The only thing about his game that's above average is the same thing he's had going for him since he was drafted, he's athletic, can finish pretty well at the rim, and is pretty long for his position. He really doesn't offer any more value to this team than Jenkins does at this point.

This board just needs to calm their collective tits regarding Archie Goodwin. He looks like a typical young NBA prospect, no more no less. He's proven time and time again that he, at the very least, belongs in the NBA. He might never be more than an end of the bench player, but the guy is only 21 years old. The Suns aren't exactly in a situation where jettisoning a young prospect for basically no return makes a lot of sense. Just be patient with the kid.

It seems to be a trend with Suns fans. You guys give up on young players so fast, just relax. Remember what happened with guys like Robin Lopez. Sometimes it just takes a guy a while to get it.

It's OK if he doesn't get a ton of minutes this year. Next year he'll still only be 22 years old.

A typical young prospect is 18-19 year old just drafted with 1-year of college under their belts. Archie is equivalent to a player that spent four years in college (22-year old). When teams draft 22 year old players the thought is they are mature enough and know the game well enough they can contribute right away. They are typically less athletic but are fundamental sound and have a high basketball IQ. That's certainly not the case with Archie. We have seen him flounder for three years in the NBA and he is by far and by the numbers the worst two guard in the league. As Frank mentioned, if the front office had any faith in Archie then Barbosa wouldn't have been signed. Really Jenkins over Archie make much more sense.

You just compared a 4yr college player to a 3 year NBA player.

[Midnight_Suns]

Read on Twitter

Good news for Ulis!