2020 Offseason Speculation, free agency, summer trades (keep draft prospect talk in draft thread)

[Ghost of Kleine]

Ghost, it’s a total non-starter to discuss trading for Grant on draft night. We couldn’t even negotiate a deal in advance with Denver because he is a FREE AGENT, i.e., Denver can’t and won’t make any deals involving him because he can do whatever he wants this summer. And he sure as hell won’t agree to be traded to PHX before he hears other offers on the open market. It’s impossible, or at the very least would require a lot of tampering and ineptitude from all parties involved.

Thanks man, I get it. I really do. I appreciate your info to help me understand the CBA better as well. I sometimes suck at relaying messages. But my response was an attempt to source my misinformation, So that they'd understand the origin of gross misinterpretation from the earlier post. I did listen to your information though, And do absolutely appreciate all your efforts ontrying to help me better understand the CBA.

I love you, GoK. Your diligence and kindness are extremely refreshing. Love what you do for this board, man. Keep it up.

Thanks man! Appreciate you too bro.

[Cutter]

Ghost, it’s a total non-starter to discuss trading for Grant on draft night. We couldn’t even negotiate a deal in advance with Denver because he is a FREE AGENT, i.e., Denver can’t and won’t make any deals involving him because he can do whatever he wants this summer. And he sure as hell won’t agree to be traded to PHX before he hears other offers on the open market. It’s impossible, or at the very least would require a lot of tampering and ineptitude from all parties involved.

Thanks man, I get it. I really do. I appreciate your info to help me understand the CBA better as well. I sometimes suck at relaying messages. But my response was an attempt to source my misinformation, So that they'd understand the origin of gross misinterpretation from the earlier post. I did listen to your information though, And do absolutely appreciate all your efforts ontrying to help me better understand the CBA.

I love you, GoK. Your diligence and kindness are extremely refreshing. Love what you do for this board, man. Keep it up.

Ghost is a good man, I always ready his posts.

[Jdiddy701]

At first I read that and thought "Is he that close with Bam too?"

That weird. Right down from the new practice facility too.

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Thats really weird. Yes, it is Bookers house. He bought it in 2017 for $3.25M and is looking to sell it for $4.2M. Its like a 10-15 minute drive to where the practice facility is being built on 44th & Camelback. Very odd to be looking to sell in the middle of the season as well. Very very odd.

Not sure where I saw it, and might be completely wrong but I thought I saw something of Devin purchasing a home that was yet to be built a couple years ago.


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[suns12345]

DB playing off the ball is so pretty

Watch on YouTube

[RunDogGun]

I like Ghosts enthusiasm and posts but what he proposes with Grant (signing and trading around the draft) isn't even legal with the CBA.

If the suns want Grant and assuming he opts out of his deal they will have the cap space to simply sign him outright.

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Why would we want him? Oubre is already better than him. We don't need another undersized SF/PF, who doesn't rebound.

I get your apprehension, Given Oubres' recent improvements, But again, As stated, Oubres' really only better in a few areas, rebounds currently, assists, steals, and points. But it's important to consider his different role, And higher overall usage. Grant is statistically better in other key areas of need for us.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jerami+Grant&player_id1_select=Jerami+Grant&player_id1=grantje01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Kelly+Oubre+Jr.&player_id2_select=Kelly+Oubre+Jr.&y2=2020&player_id2=oubreke01&idx=players

3 point shooting-
- Grant: 39%
- Oubre 35%

FG%-
- Grant 468.
- Oubre 455.

2 point FG%-
- Grant. 514.
- Oubre. 512.

EFG%-
- Grant. 546.
- Oubre. 522.

Blocks-
- Grant. 0.9.
- Oubre. 0.7.

Turnovers-
-Grant. 0.8.
- Oubre. 1.5.

Personal Fouls-
- Grant. 2.1.
- Oubre. 3.4.
*****************************************
Advanced Metrics-

TS%-
- Grant. 580.
- Oubre. 566.

Usage %-
- Grant. 17.4.
- Oubre. 22.5.

OWS-
- Grant. 1.9.
- Oubre. 1.8.

Win shares/ 48-
- Grant. .115.
- Oubre. .098.

And again, This is with Grant having a different role, And less usage. Most importantly, Even if Oubre agrees to resign with us for around 20 million ( Although I don't see why he wouldn't tey to get the most money he can)? Then even IF we signed Grant for up to 15 million, He'd still be 5 million cheaper longterm. And If Oubre does in fact get an offer around 25+ million, Then Grants contract becomes an even greater value for us in that it'd still be 10 million cheaper at that point.

But as I've said, I actually like Oubre man. I'm just not sure if I like him potentially tying up our long term cap space at 20- 25+ million or more??? Especially when we have multiple areas in our roster that need to be addressed. And again in that we ALSO have immenent core extensions that have to be considered as well.

With Oubre's Valley Boyz thing, there might be an incentive to stay and not bust the bank, or push to bust the bank. At some point players have to realize taking huge portions of the cap for themselves means there is less money to get other players to help them win.

I didn't really think you were bagging on Oubre, just saw it as less than a lateral move. Now if we were talking about replacing Oubre with a better fit for PF, someone bigger who was a beast at rebounding, while still providing an outside shot, that would make some sense. Grant just isn't that guy. I would much rather draft a rebounding PF, and groom them for a year, and then deal with the need to resign or don't resign Oubre. We will have two drafts before that time.

Overall, I would like to keep him, and have Bridges bulk up a bit. Then draft a PF, and pick up a guard like Clarkson. Then position ourselves for the possible FA signings of 2021, or even trade for one that we will want to sign then, and just resign them instead of hoping we get them in FA.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Why would we want him? Oubre is already better than him. We don't need another undersized SF/PF, who doesn't rebound.

I get your apprehension, Given Oubres' recent improvements, But again, As stated, Oubres' really only better in a few areas, rebounds currently, assists, steals, and points. But it's important to consider his different role, And higher overall usage. Grant is statistically better in other key areas of need for us.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jerami+Grant&player_id1_select=Jerami+Grant&player_id1=grantje01&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Kelly+Oubre+Jr.&player_id2_select=Kelly+Oubre+Jr.&y2=2020&player_id2=oubreke01&idx=players

3 point shooting-
- Grant: 39%
- Oubre 35%

FG%-
- Grant 468.
- Oubre 455.

2 point FG%-
- Grant. 514.
- Oubre. 512.

EFG%-
- Grant. 546.
- Oubre. 522.

Blocks-
- Grant. 0.9.
- Oubre. 0.7.

Turnovers-
-Grant. 0.8.
- Oubre. 1.5.

Personal Fouls-
- Grant. 2.1.
- Oubre. 3.4.
*****************************************
Advanced Metrics-

TS%-
- Grant. 580.
- Oubre. 566.

Usage %-
- Grant. 17.4.
- Oubre. 22.5.

OWS-
- Grant. 1.9.
- Oubre. 1.8.

Win shares/ 48-
- Grant. .115.
- Oubre. .098.

And again, This is with Grant having a different role, And less usage. Most importantly, Even if Oubre agrees to resign with us for around 20 million ( Although I don't see why he wouldn't tey to get the most money he can)? Then even IF we signed Grant for up to 15 million, He'd still be 5 million cheaper longterm. And If Oubre does in fact get an offer around 25+ million, Then Grants contract becomes an even greater value for us in that it'd still be 10 million cheaper at that point.

But as I've said, I actually like Oubre man. I'm just not sure if I like him potentially tying up our long term cap space at 20- 25+ million or more??? Especially when we have multiple areas in our roster that need to be addressed. And again in that we ALSO have immenent core extensions that have to be considered as well.

With Oubre's Valley Boyz thing, there might be an incentive to stay and not bust the bank, or push to bust the bank. At some point players have to realize taking huge portions of the cap for themselves means there is less money to get other players to help them win.

I didn't really think you were bagging on Oubre, just saw it as less than a lateral move. Now if we were talking about replacing Oubre with a better fit for PF, someone bigger who was a beast at rebounding, while still providing an outside shot, that would make some sense. Grant just isn't that guy. I would much rather draft a rebounding PF, and groom them for a year, and then deal with the need to resign or don't resign Oubre. We will have two drafts before that time.

Overall, I would like to keep him, and have Bridges bulk up a bit. Then draft a PF, and pick up a guard like Clarkson. Then position ourselves for the possible FA signings of 2021, or even trade for one that we will want to sign then, and just resign them instead of hoping we get them in FA.

You definitely make great points man. And ipon deeper reflection, I'd have to agree. I have noticed apart from the "Valley Boys" connection that he's also been developing a solid friendship with Booker too. It'll be really interesting to see how they workout together to help build/ advance each others games. Also agree with you on the draft andvfree agency too. I really like Toppin in an Amare type role, putting immense pressure upon opposing defenses next to Ayton, Especially if he can improve his defensive awareness and rotations!

And if we're focused on defense, Then my preference would have to switch to Jalen Smith as my primary choice. And Paul Reed Or Aleksev Pokusevski tied for 2nd choice. Also I am really adamant about acquiring another mid first to draft on of either Saddiq Bey ( Great find by the way man)!!! Or Aaron Nesmith. As both would be killer knockdown shooter/ scorers for our bench. And to get these players on a rookie scale contract would be a decisive advantage for us , With our upcoming core extensions.

Saddiq Bey, In my opinion is really comparable to Buddy Hield ( shooting). And Aaron Nesmith is really comparable to Michael Redd ( shooting/ scoring). Now I would prefer Bey as he's got terrific size at 6'8 for a big guard. Which also could give us mismatch advantages too.

And in free agency, At least for 2020, Id look at Milsapp or Markieff Morris for around 8 million maybe tops. Then at backup Guard, I'd look at DJ Augustine for around 9 million, Or either Raul Neto or Shabazz Napier for around 3 million.

Now to be clear, IF we intend to resign Baynes, It'll have to be pretty much solely from our cap space???

And we're not looking like we have any available exceptions to use as we currently stand???

[bwgood77]

I think Kelly would probably stay for a little less money, though who knows? But a million a year on his contract is a lot more than he will likely net on selling any ValleyBoyz merchandise.

[RunDogGun]

I don't think a Morris will ever come back to this team. I don't think Sarver will go through that again, and I don't think a Morris would sign here. I think there are better odds bringing Cotton back from the dead.

Toppin sounds great, but I just don't think he will be around for our pick, and I don't think we have the pieces to move up to get him. I was thinking more of Okongwu or Carey around our pick.I don't want to pick a player similar to Cam in this draft. I am wanting a more complementing player to Cam. It would have been better to have drafted Culver, or if moved back, grabbed Clarke. But since we didn't do that, drafting a big, who can rebound, bring him off the bench, you can run him with either Baynes or Kam, since neither of them are great rebounders.

Shabazz wouldn't be a bad FA signing, but I was hoping for more of a scoring guard off the bench, just incase we are having trouble scoring when Booker goes to the bench, which is why I was thinking Clarkson.

If we move on from Baynes, or if he gets a better offer than what we want to spend, I would still want to try another stint with Bender. I think he could be a decent role player in this league. Maybe a season working with Mark Bryant.

As for Baynes, we can sign him for whatever we want and he accepts. The cap space is irrelevant, because he would count as a cap hit, but not to the tune of his next salary. So we could use our cap space on someone else, and then resign our players.

[RunDogGun]

I think Kelly would probably stay for a little less money, though who knows? But a million a year on his contract is a lot more than he will likely net on selling any ValleyBoyz merchandise.

I wasn't so much thinking net profits for the year, but building a foundation for a brand, that he could sell for a decade.

[bwgood77]

I think Kelly would probably stay for a little less money, though who knows? But a million a year on his contract is a lot more than he will likely net on selling any ValleyBoyz merchandise.

I wasn't so much thinking net profits for the year, but building a foundation for a brand, that he could sell for a decade.

The market would be too limited to make much money at all though.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I think Kelly would probably stay for a little less money, though who knows? But a million a year on his contract is a lot more than he will likely net on selling any ValleyBoyz merchandise.

I wasn't so much thinking net profits for the year, but building a foundation for a brand, that he could sell for a decade.

The market would be too limited to make much money at all though.

Plus, you gotta think that Kelly plans on a long fashion career post-retirement. The more he makes as a player, the more he has to work with post-basketball. I imagine he'll sign with whomever gives him the most money - which is why I can envision us moving on this summer, despite his strong play this year.

[RunDogGun]

I wasn't so much thinking net profits for the year, but building a foundation for a brand, that he could sell for a decade.

The market would be too limited to make much money at all though.

Plus, you gotta think that Kelly plans on a long fashion career post-retirement. The more he makes as a player, the more he has to work with post-basketball. I imagine he'll sign with whomever gives him the most money - which is why I can envision us moving on this summer, despite his strong play this year.

But as a solid player on a young team, he can build the brand off of his name and then use it as a fall back or post playing career. If he moves on too quickly, he might have to start over, new name, new brand. Heck I even know his brand and I have never seen his clothes. It is smarter to become a fan favorite with hustle and heart, choose a brand name that relates to the team you are on, build a base. Then as long as he doesn't do something stupid, he will create a market for his stuff. This doesn't have to end with just clothing, it can be a smart brand name. Regardless of what we may think about his brand, he seems to think highly of it, which makes it important to him.

In my opinion, it provides the team with an extra chip for him to want to stay. However, if fans keep talking him down, and wanting to trade him all the time, that might have an opposite effect.

[Revived]

DB playing off the ball is so pretty

Watch on YouTube

He won’t do any of that now. He just stands around and watches if he doesn’t have the ball instead of moving and cutting.

I think all star players are like that though except LeBron (who still moves without ball and cuts often).

James Harden used to be a terrific off ball player in college and even in OKC but now if he doesn’t have the ball, he just simply stands and watches.

I think it’s a pride thing.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I don't think a Morris will ever come back to this team. I don't think Sarver will go through that again, and I don't think a Morris would sign here. I think there are better odds bringing Cotton back from the dead.

Toppin sounds great, but I just don't think he will be around for our pick, and I don't think we have the pieces to move up to get him. I was thinking more of Okongwu or Carey around our pick.I don't want to pick a player similar to Cam in this draft. I am wanting a more complementing player to Cam. It would have been better to have drafted Culver, or if moved back, grabbed Clarke. But since we didn't do that, drafting a big, who can rebound, bring him off the bench, you can run him with either Baynes or Kam, since neither of them are great rebounders.

Shabazz wouldn't be a bad FA signing, but I was hoping for more of a scoring guard off the bench, just incase we are having trouble scoring when Booker goes to the bench, which is why I was thinking Clarkson.

If we move on from Baynes, or if he gets a better offer than what we want to spend, I would still want to try another stint with Bender. I think he could be a decent role player in this league. Maybe a season working with Mark Bryant.

As for Baynes, we can sign him for whatever we want and he accepts. The cap space is irrelevant, because he would count as a cap hit, but not to the tune of his next salary. So we could use our cap space on someone else, and then resign our players.

Thanks man.

I was confused on Baynes, Because I understand that he's an unrestricted free agent, And Blonde did indicate that we don't have his full bird rights since he will have only completed one year with us, So he mentioned only being able to offer up to 120% of his current contract value or basically around 6.5 million I believe? So I was curious as to whether we could resign him last, After signing key free agents this summer. But if we could, Then of course that's a plus. So if that's the consideration, Then I'd alternatively look at ( with 26 million) as mentioned, look to sign:

Point Guard-( one of...)

- Clarkson for 10-12 million. Or
- Augustine for 9 million. Or
- Napier or Neto for around 3 million. ( ** Both are good 3 point shooters).

Shooting guard-

- Galloway for 7 million.
- Justin Holiday for 6 million. ** He's also a solid Perimeter defender.
- Bryn Forbes. For 6 million.
- Glenn Robinson 3rd for 5 million.
- Alec Burks for 5 million.
- David Nwaba ( unsigned) for 3 million.

*** I'd really prefer a combination of either : Bryn Forbes ( streaky 39% career 3 point shooter) and Justin Anderson ( solid perimeter defender). Or maybe Bryn Forbes and Glenn Robinson. Or Bryn Forbes and Alec Burks. That should give our bench a pretty potent offensive scoring boost.

Power Forward- ***( If no Markieff as an option):

- Montrezl Harrell for 10???? Or
- Jamychal Green for 6 million. Or
- Juan Hernangomez for 3 million. Or
- Noah Vonleh for 3 million. Or
- Harry Giles for 3 million.

*** Or we could just decide to run Oubre at the starting ( small ball 4) then just fill the back small forward position with either:

- Jerami Grant. For 12-14 million. **( If he takes his player option). Or
- Jae Crowder. For 9 million.
- Davis Betrans for 10 million???
- Derrick Jones Jr. *( bring back) for 2 million?

Then resign Baynes for around 8- 10 million.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Revived]

Lmao who’s next for Golden State, Kendall Marshall?

They already tried Tyler Ulis otherwise I would’ve suggested that.

[BobbieL]

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My guess with the MOnty connection and the fact that Bender was probably not coming back - made the decision to sign Bolden easier. But if Bender was willing, I would have been okay bringing him back. Bolden - well off one game - will do the same thing. Young big, cheap, chance for big upside. Zero if any risk.

[bwgood77]

The market would be too limited to make much money at all though.

Plus, you gotta think that Kelly plans on a long fashion career post-retirement. The more he makes as a player, the more he has to work with post-basketball. I imagine he'll sign with whomever gives him the most money - which is why I can envision us moving on this summer, despite his strong play this year.

But as a solid player on a young team, he can build the brand off of his name and then use it as a fall back or post playing career. If he moves on too quickly, he might have to start over, new name, new brand. Heck I even know his brand and I have never seen his clothes. It is smarter to become a fan favorite with hustle and heart, choose a brand name that relates to the team you are on, build a base. Then as long as he doesn't do something stupid, he will create a market for his stuff. This doesn't have to end with just clothing, it can be a smart brand name. Regardless of what we may think about his brand, he seems to think highly of it, which makes it important to him.

In my opinion, it provides the team with an extra chip for him to want to stay. However, if fans keep talking him down, and wanting to trade him all the time, that might have an opposite effect.

I think the majority of fans love him. I really like a lot of things about him too. I guess I just am skeptical that a team with Booker and Oubre as your 1-2 punch can ever go far. Now realistically, Ayton should be 1 or 2, but often Oubre ends up taking more shots than him, whether they are falling or not. And in the long run, Ayton's efficiency will likely be far higher so it's a losing proposition.

Now I do like Kelly long term at $15 million a year or less (though I actually think $15 million is a tad too high for that type of skill set)....but if we start getting into the $20 million range for that type of player, that's WAY too much and we are just going down the same road we have gone down before in trapping ourselves in big, bad contracts.

[BobbieL]

Plus, you gotta think that Kelly plans on a long fashion career post-retirement. The more he makes as a player, the more he has to work with post-basketball. I imagine he'll sign with whomever gives him the most money - which is why I can envision us moving on this summer, despite his strong play this year.

But as a solid player on a young team, he can build the brand off of his name and then use it as a fall back or post playing career. If he moves on too quickly, he might have to start over, new name, new brand. Heck I even know his brand and I have never seen his clothes. It is smarter to become a fan favorite with hustle and heart, choose a brand name that relates to the team you are on, build a base. Then as long as he doesn't do something stupid, he will create a market for his stuff. This doesn't have to end with just clothing, it can be a smart brand name. Regardless of what we may think about his brand, he seems to think highly of it, which makes it important to him.

In my opinion, it provides the team with an extra chip for him to want to stay. However, if fans keep talking him down, and wanting to trade him all the time, that might have an opposite effect.

I think the majority of fans love him. I really like a lot of things about him too. I guess I just am skeptical that a team with Booker and Oubre as your 1-2 punch can ever go far. Now realistically, Ayton should be 1 or 2, but often Oubre ends up taking more shots than him, whether they are falling or not. And in the long run, Ayton's efficiency will likely be far higher so it's a losing proposition.

Now I do like Kelly long term at $15 million a year or less (though I actually think $15 million is a tad too high for that type of skill set)....but if we start getting into the $20 million range for that type of player, that's WAY too much and we are just going down the same road we have gone down before in trapping ourselves in big, bad contracts.

The above is why I like the idea on Millsap on a one year deal - between Oubre and Millsap would have decent expirings just in case. I agree though. Oubre at maybe 17 is one thing. But 85/4 - that might not be wise

[Kerrsed]

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I need to watch that 1st GS game so i can see Chriss's face when they put Bender in the game over him......again.