Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
bigfoot wrote:Last night was just another example of why Ayton isn't a max player. In the 1st quarter, he grabbed a rebound and gave it to CP3. All the other players are sprinting down the court on offense and CP3 turns and yells at Ayton to run. He has to be reminded to do the proper things in the game.
Deandre was really non-existent on offense for most of the game. His rolls were off and his hands were bad. Most of CP3's turnovers were poor attempts at catches by Ayton. Honestly, McGee is a much better offensive option than Ayton in the PNR. McGee is crazy athletic and long and knows how to dribble the ball well through traffic and adjust his body on pick and rolls.
It's hard to tell if it is a lack of offensive BBIQ or the desire to work hard. Probably a combo of both. Right now he is a lesser version of Rudy Gobert when comparing their first four years. Rudy didn't get a max until his 9th season.
bigfoot wrote:Last night was just another example of why Ayton isn't a max player. In the 1st quarter, he grabbed a rebound and gave it to CP3. All the other players are sprinting down the court on offense and CP3 turns and yells at Ayton to run. He has to be reminded to do the proper things in the game.
Deandre was really non-existent on offense for most of the game. His rolls were off and his hands were bad. Most of CP3's turnovers were poor attempts at catches by Ayton. Honestly, McGee is a much better offensive option than Ayton in the PNR. McGee is crazy athletic and long and knows how to dribble the ball well through traffic and adjust his body on pick and rolls.
It's hard to tell if it is a lack of offensive BBIQ or the desire to work hard. Probably a combo of both. Right now he is a lesser version of Rudy Gobert when comparing their first four years. Rudy didn't get a max until his 9th season.
Ryu wrote:I hope for a 5 year deal for a little less than max, something like 5/150 mil. But if we need to max him I would do that in the end.
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:Sunsdeuce wrote:
What an absolute garbage can of a take. You really took the time to write this? Also, you do realize “improve” and “help” are synonyms, right? Anyways, I’ll just leave this right here, smh:
“Ayton credits Paul for changing his career.
“I love CP, man. Like I said, that’s really the only teammate that really push me. Like big bro type push. Knowing what I got and that I ain’t never thought that I had,” Ayton said of CP3.”
Yeah the same guy who said Ayton was going to get a “bag” after the playoffs. Then CP gets his bag and when it comes to Ayton getting paid, complete silence from CP.
Some of you make CP out to be some type of hero but completely ignore everything else about CP.
Strange take. Obviously Paul was advocating for Ayton to get paid. He's not going to get involved in negotiations or trash management with public comments, stirring controversy. What good would that do? It would create a narrative of turmoil between the team and the FO, and I have a hard time believing that such comments would have caused the Suns to give into Deandre's contract demands. Like anyone with three brain cells, he understands that the best ways for him to help Deandre get his are to help him on the court and, if any advocacy's to take place, say it to management directly, behind the scenes.
If Paul had said anything publicly - especially after the fact - that would have been a boneheaded move. And before that, how could he have known how negotiations were proceeding? He's a player, not the GM, not the owner. He can only do so much.
I expect the team to continue giving Deandre more opportunities on offense. Paul is the biggest part of that. That's what he can actually do to improve Ayton's chances at getting the 5 year max I'm still hoping he gets.
bwgood77 wrote:ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:Sunsdeuce wrote:
Yeah the same guy who said Ayton was going to get a “bag” after the playoffs. Then CP gets his bag and when it comes to Ayton getting paid, complete silence from CP.
Some of you make CP out to be some type of hero but completely ignore everything else about CP.
Strange take. Obviously Paul was advocating for Ayton to get paid. He's not going to get involved in negotiations or trash management with public comments, stirring controversy. What good would that do? It would create a narrative of turmoil between the team and the FO, and I have a hard time believing that such comments would have caused the Suns to give into Deandre's contract demands. Like anyone with three brain cells, he understands that the best ways for him to help Deandre get his are to help him on the court and, if any advocacy's to take place, say it to management directly, behind the scenes.
If Paul had said anything publicly - especially after the fact - that would have been a boneheaded move. And before that, how could he have known how negotiations were proceeding? He's a player, not the GM, not the owner. He can only do so much.
I expect the team to continue giving Deandre more opportunities on offense. Paul is the biggest part of that. That's what he can actually do to improve Ayton's chances at getting the 5 year max I'm still hoping he gets.
Paul always has great things to say about Ayton. He says a lot of good things here starting a little after 1:30.
Bogyo wrote:bigfoot wrote:Last night was just another example of why Ayton isn't a max player. In the 1st quarter, he grabbed a rebound and gave it to CP3. All the other players are sprinting down the court on offense and CP3 turns and yells at Ayton to run. He has to be reminded to do the proper things in the game.
Deandre was really non-existent on offense for most of the game. His rolls were off and his hands were bad. Most of CP3's turnovers were poor attempts at catches by Ayton. Honestly, McGee is a much better offensive option than Ayton in the PNR. McGee is crazy athletic and long and knows how to dribble the ball well through traffic and adjust his body on pick and rolls.
It's hard to tell if it is a lack of offensive BBIQ or the desire to work hard. Probably a combo of both. Right now he is a lesser version of Rudy Gobert when comparing their first four years. Rudy didn't get a max until his 9th season.
Might have been a bad game or whatever. But yeah, a bit concerning stuff, that was always there, minus the playoff run. We've talked about this with no ends in his thread last year, but then it stopped when he got his sht together around april/may.
This is why it's good that he didn't get the max at first sight. With that said I'm pretty sure he will from us or somebody else and we match. Either way we shouldn't lose him just for nothing.
bwgood77 wrote:Ryu wrote:I hope for a 5 year deal for a little less than max, something like 5/150 mil. But if we need to max him I would do that in the end.
Yeah, I hope it's 5, not 4. It doesn't make a ton of sense if you think he is worth paying a max to keep on your team not to want to pay for 5 years, but yes, I've said the same, offer him a little less if you want.
At this point in time, he doesn't feel worth a max, but felt the same about Booker the summer before he was eligible when he extended and 5/$135 feels better, which is like $27.5 per year, but up to $30 or a little more sounds fine..and a max isn't worth much more than that.
And remember what I think O'Connor said about locking him up to a 5 year max, when the tv deal kicks in 3 years into his contract, even a max now would end up only being 20-22% of the cap in years 4 or 5 with the cap jump in 3 years so years 4 and 5 would be bargains. If we had to re-up him in 3 or 4 years or if he had signed a 3/1 offer sheet it could really cost us (plus he could leave a lot earlier).
I'm pretty certain SA/DET and the other couple of teams with cap space may pursue him. They may both want to go after Miles Bridges too who couldn't agree on an extension though and can't really go after both. Both teams could definitely use a big though. They could also use a bigger wing.Spoiler:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Ryu wrote:I hope for a 5 year deal for a little less than max, something like 5/150 mil. But if we need to max him I would do that in the end.
Yeah, I hope it's 5, not 4. It doesn't make a ton of sense if you think he is worth paying a max to keep on your team not to want to pay for 5 years, but yes, I've said the same, offer him a little less if you want.
At this point in time, he doesn't feel worth a max, but felt the same about Booker the summer before he was eligible when he extended and 5/$135 feels better, which is like $27.5 per year, but up to $30 or a little more sounds fine..and a max isn't worth much more than that.
And remember what I think O'Connor said about locking him up to a 5 year max, when the tv deal kicks in 3 years into his contract, even a max now would end up only being 20-22% of the cap in years 4 or 5 with the cap jump in 3 years so years 4 and 5 would be bargains. If we had to re-up him in 3 or 4 years or if he had signed a 3/1 offer sheet it could really cost us (plus he could leave a lot earlier).
I'm pretty certain SA/DET and the other couple of teams with cap space may pursue him. They may both want to go after Miles Bridges too who couldn't agree on an extension though and can't really go after both. Both teams could definitely use a big though. They could also use a bigger wing.Spoiler:
What are your thoughts on the possibility of these teams utilizing front loaded deals or poison pill provisions and other clever means as a strategy to dissuade Saver from giving approval on matching? I remember that you were the one who originally shared the article pointing these possibilities out, And made very salient points to these discussions. I think currently as it stands, We're looking like we may get him for somewhat of a discount, primarily due to him not being a focal point in our offense. I wonder if this is somewhat of an underlying strategy by saver and the suns front office to try and prevent market value escalation prior to his signing long term. Not completely ethical, but I'm sure happens/ has happened at times before.
I also do think the idea of obtaining Ayton has to be enticing for their fans with his elite defensive attributes, Especially if they can potentially market him as their Tim Duncan 2.0 prodigy? They've had a great history with big men obviously. And could really sell Ayton being mentored by both Pop and Tim Duncan as well in one of the NBA's more renowned development systems. I mean I know that Chtis Paul, Crowder, Mark Bryant and Monty Williams have been pretty good for his development. But could you imagine the effect that a franchise like the Spurs could have on his defensive development and his overall game being mentored by one of the greatest coaches in the game in Pop AND one of the greatest defensive and fundamentally sound big men in the game in Duncan.
I also think that Detroit ( with Olnyk going down) Or OKC could be a legitimate threat to utilize such strategies ( front loaded/ poison pill provision) to secure that elite big man compliment to their young backcourt options (Shai/ Cade)??
But overall, I won't worry too much about how it'll play out as we'll definitely have solid options to explore.
bwgood77 wrote:I saw a trade suggestion on the trade board of Ayton for OG which is interesting, since OG can play PF. Out of all the PFs people mention around here, I'd take him over anyone. Even though I really like Siakam too, people have also mentioned him but I'd prefer OG in a deal simply because he makes half as much money and has way more upside. He may already be better too or close to it.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:bwgood77 wrote:I saw a trade suggestion on the trade board of Ayton for OG which is interesting, since OG can play PF. Out of all the PFs people mention around here, I'd take him over anyone. Even though I really like Siakam too, people have also mentioned him but I'd prefer OG in a deal simply because he makes half as much money and has way more upside. He may already be better too or close to it.
That'd be an exciting ( duo) dynamic with Bridges at the 3 and OG at the 4. Our perimeter defense would be suffocating I'd believe. What would be the entirety of the deal that you'd be looking at in terms of overall value man? Any other pieces involved for equitable value? Or would you be amenable to a simple Ayton for OG swap?
Slim Charless wrote:Bogyo wrote:bigfoot wrote:Last night was just another example of why Ayton isn't a max player. In the 1st quarter, he grabbed a rebound and gave it to CP3. All the other players are sprinting down the court on offense and CP3 turns and yells at Ayton to run. He has to be reminded to do the proper things in the game.
Deandre was really non-existent on offense for most of the game. His rolls were off and his hands were bad. Most of CP3's turnovers were poor attempts at catches by Ayton. Honestly, McGee is a much better offensive option than Ayton in the PNR. McGee is crazy athletic and long and knows how to dribble the ball well through traffic and adjust his body on pick and rolls.
It's hard to tell if it is a lack of offensive BBIQ or the desire to work hard. Probably a combo of both. Right now he is a lesser version of Rudy Gobert when comparing their first four years. Rudy didn't get a max until his 9th season.
Might have been a bad game or whatever. But yeah, a bit concerning stuff, that was always there, minus the playoff run. We've talked about this with no ends in his thread last year, but then it stopped when he got his sht together around april/may.
This is why it's good that he didn't get the max at first sight. With that said I'm pretty sure he will from us or somebody else and we match. Either way we shouldn't lose him just for nothing.
I mean....he did have 17 rebounds. I saw a cpl bad grabs by him but I saw alot of terrible lob attempts by both Booker and CP3 as well. Along with our continued determination to not involve him in the offense.
He's 2x the player Gobert was at this age especially when you consider Rudy actually gets a chance to score every once in awhile.
bigfoot wrote:Slim Charless wrote:Bogyo wrote:
Might have been a bad game or whatever. But yeah, a bit concerning stuff, that was always there, minus the playoff run. We've talked about this with no ends in his thread last year, but then it stopped when he got his sht together around april/may.
This is why it's good that he didn't get the max at first sight. With that said I'm pretty sure he will from us or somebody else and we match. Either way we shouldn't lose him just for nothing.
I mean....he did have 17 rebounds. I saw a cpl bad grabs by him but I saw alot of terrible lob attempts by both Booker and CP3 as well. Along with our continued determination to not involve him in the offense.
He's 2x the player Gobert was at this age especially when you consider Rudy actually gets a chance to score every once in awhile.
He's been clutch rebounding. But ... his ability to take his man 1-on-1 on offense is non-existent. A perfect example was an offensive rebound he grabbed. He was down low on the left block and settled for a fade-away jumper because he couldn't back his man down or face him up and drive around. He also does a poor job getting a decent position in the post when he has a small man on him. This is not to say Ayton isn't good ... he's just not max good.
bwgood77 wrote:bigfoot wrote:Slim Charless wrote:
I mean....he did have 17 rebounds. I saw a cpl bad grabs by him but I saw alot of terrible lob attempts by both Booker and CP3 as well. Along with our continued determination to not involve him in the offense.
He's 2x the player Gobert was at this age especially when you consider Rudy actually gets a chance to score every once in awhile.
He's been clutch rebounding. But ... his ability to take his man 1-on-1 on offense is non-existent. A perfect example was an offensive rebound he grabbed. He was down low on the left block and settled for a fade-away jumper because he couldn't back his man down or face him up and drive around. He also does a poor job getting a decent position in the post when he has a small man on him. This is not to say Ayton isn't good ... he's just not max good.
He does have moments where he settles for like that fadeaway jumper or even passes out when he could go for it, but you must not have watched nearly all the games because he has definitely backed his man down on possessions and scored and also had drives not only around, but at guys. He doesn't do it second nature or all the time, but he does it. But if a fadeaway goes in, no one complains? I mean Book often could drive in and does tons of fadeaways but it's fine. It's ok to try and have a repertoire. I wish he would be more aggressive offensively and sometimes it's frustrating but it's not like he can't or hasn't done those things. They are just not second nature and he takes a lot of baseline jumpers like Ewing and TD took.
Jdiddy701 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:bigfoot wrote:
He's been clutch rebounding. But ... his ability to take his man 1-on-1 on offense is non-existent. A perfect example was an offensive rebound he grabbed. He was down low on the left block and settled for a fade-away jumper because he couldn't back his man down or face him up and drive around. He also does a poor job getting a decent position in the post when he has a small man on him. This is not to say Ayton isn't good ... he's just not max good.
He does have moments where he settles for like that fadeaway jumper or even passes out when he could go for it, but you must not have watched nearly all the games because he has definitely backed his man down on possessions and scored and also had drives not only around, but at guys. He doesn't do it second nature or all the time, but he does it. But if a fadeaway goes in, no one complains? I mean Book often could drive in and does tons of fadeaways but it's fine. It's ok to try and have a repertoire. I wish he would be more aggressive offensively and sometimes it's frustrating but it's not like he can't or hasn't done those things. They are just not second nature and he takes a lot of baseline jumpers like Ewing and TD took.
I’ve watched every game and don’t remember many plays where he’s backed the defender down and scored. Once there is contact, he settles for a fadeaway or passes out. Just because a player does it once a blue moon, doesn’t mean they can consistently do it. It’s just not his game and that’s fine. Well, not fine if he wants a max contract. Offensively, he’s the same player he was coming into the league - hasn’t improved much on that end and that’s frustrating.
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