RealGM

...He retires?

The immortal 4:

1. Magic Johnson - 3 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's and 5 NBA Championships. Lets be honest this guy is the GOAT PG and changed the way basketball was viewed when he entered the league in 1980. As a rookie he dropped 42/15/7 in game 6 of the NBA Finals. Possibly the greatest rookie performance in NBA history. Career averages of 20/9/11, nearly a triple-double.

2. Oscar Robertson - 10 time 1st team all NBA. In 62' and 64' he averaged a triple-double the entire season. Only player in history to ever do so... #1 all time in career triple-doubles with 168. NBA MVP in 64' and NBA champion in 71'.

3. John Stockton - NBA career leader in assists and steals. 2 Finals appearences and the only player in NBA history (along with Magic) to average at least 10 assists per game their entire career.

4. Isiah Thomas - 12 straight all-star games. 2 time NBA champion and the 90' NBA finals MVP. Career averages of 19/9 and 2 steals.

5. Steve Nash? Gary Payton? Walt Frazier? Jason Kidd? Bob Cousy?

Just looking at some numbers: Nash is about 700+ assists shy of Gary Payton on the all-time list. Assuming he plays 2 more years and averages 10 assists per game he'll probably surpass Payton in 2012 which could put him in front on the all-time list and lets not forget the 2 MVP's. Payton is probably the greatest defensive PG of all time. 8 time 1st team all defense and the DPOY in 96'... 3 total Finals appearences and 1 NBA title in 06' with Miami. Jason Kidd made 1st team all NBA defense 4 times and led 2 teams to the Finals. Frazier/Cousy won multiple titles on stacked teams in the 50's-60's.

So, does Nash belong in the top 5 ahead of Payton/Kidd when all is done?

yes. he's a better player than them.

Well, if we can count the O-Train as a SG, then for sure.

So lets just count it like that...

1) Magic Johnson
Duh.

2) John Stockton
Duh.

3) Isaiah Thomas
Duh.

4) Jason Kidd
C'mon now! Its gotta be JKidd!

5) Steve Nash
Unless Steve wins a title in the next couple of years (possible IMO) then I don't think he passes Kidd. Sure hes by far the worst defender in contention, but Nash has (had once he retires) was top two at making ever single one of his teammates infinity better in my opinion. Plus hes one of the top 5 shooters of all time, right?

Really? Frazier and Cousy? Legacy? Yes. Better than Nash? No.

As great as Isiah was I don't know that he's a lock for this top 5 list. But He's still in mine and I'd still rate him above Nash or Kidd unless Nash wins a title.

IMO Nash is above Kidd, These are my 2 favorite players of the last 12 or so years and I have watched them play more than any other players. I love them both but I will rank nash above kidd every time because of his ability to take over a game when his teammates are struggling offensively. Kidd just can't do it on a consistent basis. Never could. He has far more intangibles than perhaps any PG on this list other than Magic and the Big O ... but those are only relevant in a tie breaker situation in my opinion.

And Kidds 2 finals runs don't equate since there was ZERO competition in the East those seasons.

1 Magic
2 Oscar
3 Stock
4 Isiah
5 Nash

IMHO Kidd>>>>>>Nash.

Sorry to say it guys.

Kerrsed wrote:IMHO Kidd>>>>>>Nash.

Sorry to say it guys.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76p_ncbffCE[/youtube]

I have to go Nash>Kidd barely... Nash has always been poor on defense but give me the guy who i can rely on to takeover a game offensively when his team needs it the most. The last few years of performance as each player has aged makes a big difference. Nowadays opposing teams are encouraging Kidd to have possesion in the half court. He can't post anyone up anymore and has never been able to create his own shot on the perimeter. His prime was different because of his ability to defend and run an up-tempo offense. Those weak ass Nets teams he lead to the finals is incredibly impressive but legacy wise i think 2 MVP's trumps it. Nash's career playoff numbers blow Kidd's outta the water and Nash has the advantage efficiency wise. Steve's playmaking ability allows him to dominate to this day and i think that speak volumes. Kidd's rebounding ability for a PG makes it close but i'm taking Nash by the slimmest of margins.

The Glove's defense was on a whole other level. He's the only PG in NBA history to win DPOY. If i'm starting a franchise i'll go Payton>Nash>Kidd due to all around skills and badassnessness.

I thought you were going to say when he wins a ring. If he ever wins a ring it would be a debate for him being 3rd.

Tough to say since Nash hasn't even made a Finals appearance yet and his defense does hurt him. IMO He's still a a HoF'er but I'm not sure he's top 5. Those MVP's, 50/40/90 seasons and team success has to put him in the conversation but I'm just not sure he's top 5. I think Kidd and GP have had considerably better careers if you take away even one of Nash's MVP's.

If he can get to the 10k assist mark I can see it happening

Don't forget 2-time MVP. I think that at the end of each respective career, if neither wins a championship, as much as I love Kidd, I think Nash would take a higher spot on the totem pole. They are probably 5 and six on the list. With al of that said, Nash looks like he could keep playing until he is 42

Surely he is one of the top 3 PG of all time.
I've watched a lot of basketball in my life (since 1990) and he's the player more skilled, with the best technique playing basketball in the world that I have seen, above of Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Magic, etc..... but the skills are only one part of the game and phisical specimens like Lebron or Howard are more efficients for a team that the most skilled player in the world.

I've watched a lot of years Stockton and he isn´t in the same category of Nash. Better defender but overall worse player.He was great, of course, but he was not a genius like Steve.

This is my personal opinion: I think Nash is the best PG of all time. However, the most efficient and effective five would be : KOBE, JORDAN, PIPPEN, DUNCAN and SHAQ (no problems of height/ball handling/defense/etc).

You could argue he deserved 3 mvps. And I just don't see how you disqualify him due to no finals appearances. Especially when you consider the cruel twists of faith that occurred to keep him out of the final round. Doesn't 'close' count for anything?

no doubt about it.
2× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
7× NBA All-Star: 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010
7× All-NBA selection:
First team: 2005, 2006, 2007
Second team: 2008, 2010
Third team: 2002, 2003
2× NBA All-Star Weekend Skills Challenge winner: 2005, 2010
4× NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6), 2010 (11.0)[10]
4× NBA regular season leader for total assists: 2005 (861), 2006 (826), 2007 (884), 2010 (892)[10]
2× NBA regular season leader for free-throw percentage: 2006 (.921), 2010 (.938)[10]
6× NBA regular season leader for assists per 48 minutes: 2004 (12.6),[59] 2005 (16.1),[60] 2006 (14.2),[61] 2007 (15.8),[62] 2008 (15.5),[63] 2010 (16.1)
5x member of 50-40-90 Club: (2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010)
Has more 50-40-90 seasons than any other player in NBA history
One of only five players to have ever shot 50-40-90
One of only two players to have shot 50-40-90 more than once
Only player to have shot 50-40-90 five seasons in a row

NEED MORE?

TXSun wrote:2× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
First team: 2005, 2006, 2007
4× NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6), 2010 (11.0)
Has more 50-40-90 seasons than any other player in NBA history

All I need.

People just can't comprehend the 50-40-90. So awesome.

Sun Scorched wrote:

TXSun wrote:2× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
First team: 2005, 2006, 2007
4× NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6), 2010 (11.0)
Has more 50-40-90 seasons than any other player in NBA history

All I need.

People just can't comprehend the 50-40-90. So awesome.

Oh yeah, and counting.....

TXSun wrote:

Sun Scorched wrote:

TXSun wrote:2× NBA Most Valuable Player: 2005, 2006
First team: 2005, 2006, 2007
4× NBA regular season leader for assists per game: 2005 (11.5), 2006 (10.5), 2007 (11.6), 2010 (11.0)
Has more 50-40-90 seasons than any other player in NBA history

All I need.

People just can't comprehend the 50-40-90. So awesome.

Oh yeah, and counting.....

And its not like he's a spot-up shooter like Ray Allen. Nash gets that while the entire defense is focused on him... or while he running full-sprint in transition for the pull-up three (my favorite play).

Duh. he is already top 5. Too many reason's to list why but he may be the best shooter and passer in the history of the game. That's enough on it's own.

cmw17 wrote:Duh. he is already top 5. Too many reason's to list why but he may be the best shooter and passer in the history of the game. That's enough on it's own.

He's not a better passer than Magic/Stockton. Both those guys have absurd assist averages. Magic has a career average of 11+ and Stockton has the most assists in NBA history so i'm not buying that. But, he is a better shooter than both.

He has a case for best shooter. I think he's a better passer than Stockton but not as good as Magic.