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I'm guessing that not all of you have insider on ESPN, and I thought this was interesting...

Chad Ford wrote:14. Phoenix Suns

Key additions: Hedo Turkoglu (trade), Josh Childress (trade), Channing Frye (re-signed), Hakim Warrick (trade), Lon Babby (president), Lance Blanks (GM)

Key subtractions: Amare Stoudemire, Leandro Barbosa, Steve Kerr

After one last run in the playoffs for the always fun Suns, the sun began to set on Phoenix this summer. Steve Nash, the heart and soul of the Suns, is still plugging away at age 36. But the rest of his teammates have, one by one, left the team. Of the original run-and-gun Suns, he's the only remaining member.

The biggest defection of the summer came when Stoudemire bolted the team for the Knicks. If you've followed the Suns at all the past couple of years, you saw this coming, but when it finally went down, it still stung a little.

GM Steve Kerr also left the team, leading to an awkward situation where owner Robert Sarver used an NBA agent, Lon Babby, to help him navigate the summer free-agent waters without a GM. In the process, one of Babby's clients, Turkoglu, and one of his former clients, JChildress, landed in Phoenix and Barbosa was shipped off to Toronto. When the summer was over, Sarver hired Babby as the team's new president.

Babby is a respected agent and has been a voice of reason over the years, but his first moves this summer didn't wow anyone. Turkoglu is a good fit in the Suns' system but he's grossly overpaid with four years, $40 million left on his contract. Childress is super versatile, but was he worth a six-year, $33.5 million contract? And did I mention that he and Turkoglu both play the same position as another Babby client -- Grant Hill?

Meanwhile the Suns are very thin up front. Frye turned one good season shooting the ball off the bench into a starting gig and $30 million. The team also paid Hakim Warrick $12.75 million over three years to help back him up. Third-year big man Robin Lopez is the team's only true physical presence in the middle.

Gentry and Nash will still figure out how to get the most out of this squad and maybe even sneak the team into the playoffs -- but the direction the Suns are heading is clear and it won't be long until darkness covers the land of the sun.

Grade: D+

I'm confused at what Chad Ford sees in the addition/subtraction.

First of all, is everyone in agreement that Childress is an improvement over Barbosa? If this is (more or less) true, how can Childress be a bad signing? We took away a player who can basically do one thing, shoot and fastbreak with no defense, and replaced him with a player who can fastbreak better, has a decent midrange shot and can play defense. Is this not a good thing considering the surplus of shooters we already had? UPGRADE

Ok, we overpayed Frye. But he is pretty key for us. He rounds out that second unit very well. NO CHANGE

Steve Ker/DGriff for Babby and Blanks... is a little downgrade. But its really not that big of a deal. If this is one of your main arguments, then your argument is crap. SLIGHT DOWNGRADE

About losing Lou: people need to stop over-valuing what he did for us. IS he a good rebounder? Yes. Is he a good shot blocker? Sure. But he just didn't have much skill. He's crazy athletic, and has good timing, but other than that, it is pretty easy to find a rookie with similar passion skills. Like, say... Gani Lawal. Perhaps I'm the one undervaluing Lou, but I just don't see what he brings that Gani can't. Sure hes an unproven rookie, but he has tools, and that's really all Amundson ever had. NO CHANGE

Alright. Now for the main contreversy. The addition of one Hidayet Turkoglu. What the Suns basically did was trade Amar'e Stoudemire for Hedo and Hakim Warrick. Now perhaps its because I don't quite see Amar'e as THAT great, but in all seriousness: other than a better jump shot and a little better defense... doesn't Warrick bring all the pick and roll intangibles that Amar'e did? Isn't Warrick supposed to be "more explosive than Amar'e"? Doesn't everyone understand that the pick and roll is based 75% on EXPLOSIVENESS? I'm not saying Warrick is better or even as good as Amar'e as a player, but can't Steve Nash make him close? And additionally we added the player that we've sortof needed. Hedo will take a HUGE load off of Nash's shoulders, and will probably make everyone around him better too. IMO, and argue with it if you want, but I think that Turkoglu + Warrick > Amar'e.UPGRADE

On to Defense... do you people really think that the void left by AMAR'E STOUDEMIRE, the player with no dedication to defense, who people on the very board have sited as "a HORRENDOUS defender", "a lazy bum", and "downright pathetic" cannot be filled by Warrick and Turkoglu? How much of an issue will it really be? Lopez will always guard the best big man on any given team (how he guards him could be a problem...) and Turk/Frye/Warrick/Lawal/Clark can team against the second best.

People are being extremely pessimistic about our chances, and I'm okay with that. They'll be eating their words soon enough. The 2010-11 Suns are simply too versatile. They can probably mach up against any team. This is not to say that we WILL beat every team out there. But IMO, it is true that we CAN beat any team in a seven game series.

Let the disagreeing with me commence.

eh.... every basketball analyst / writer sucks at espn... EXCEPT for Bill Simmons

Nando88 wrote:eh.... every basketball analyst / writer sucks at espn... EXCEPT for Bill Simmons

This is true. But he needs to stick to basketball and mailbags. His football/baseball crap is boring. And his podcasts make me want to weep. But he is hilarious, and hes a basketball genius.

nashrambler13 wrote:First of all, is everyone in agreement that Childress is an improvement over Barbosa? If this is (more or less) true, how can Childress be a bad signing? We took away a player who can basically do one thing, shoot and fastbreak with no defense, and replaced him with a player who can fastbreak better, has a decent midrange shot and can play defense. Is this not a good thing considering the surplus of shooters we already had? UPGRADE

Agreed

Ok, we overpayed Frye. But he is pretty key for us. He rounds out that second unit very well. NO CHANGE

You have a point but I still don't like the kind of deal we gave him, but that's just me.

Steve Ker/DGriff for Babby and Blanks... is a little downgrade. But its really not that big of a deal. If this is one of your main arguments, then your argument is crap. SLIGHT DOWNGRADE

Personally, at this point, I think it's a definite downgrade. So far all our "FO" (being that Sarver and Baby made most of the off-season moves) has really done is brought in Babby's clients and/or ex-clients (Hedo and JChill). I always thought Kerr/Griff had a clear sense of what they needed to achieve and how to achieve it. This team is almost totally their creation with only 3 players left from the SSOL era when the season ended (LB, STAT, Nash). They brought in defensive minded players who allowed us to play our uptempo game but made us better defensively, I thought that was the biggest key to our success last season. For the most part, I liked what they did for us and I got a sense of the team they want to build. With the new FO, it's hard to tell so really the jury is still out on them, but I thought losing Kerr/Griff was a definite downgrade.

About losing Lou: people need to stop over-valuing what he did for us. IS he a good rebounder? Yes. Is he a good shot blocker? Sure. But he just didn't have much skill. He's crazy athletic, and has good timing, but other than that, it is pretty easy to find a rookie with similar passion skills. Like, say... Gani Lawal. Perhaps I'm the one undervaluing Lou, but I just don't see what he brings that Gani can't. Sure hes an unproven rookie, but he has tools, and that's really all Amundson ever had. NO CHANGE

Da_Reel_Kboy made a good point about Lawal being thought of as a replace for Lou but he mentioned how Lawal might not even have enough minutes on the court to bring the hustle/defense that Lou brought. With guys like Hedo, Warrick and Frye in front of him and being a rookie, I see very little minutes for him. I hope Warrick makes me eat my words, but I think his signing was the wrong move. I thought we could've gotten better production (defensively) for cheaper if we had resigned Lou to a deal around $2-3m.

Alright. Now for the main contreversy. .... Hedo will take a HUGE load off of Nash's shoulders, and will probably make everyone around him better too. IMO, and argue with it if you want, but I think that Turkoglu + Warrick > Amar'e.UPGRADE

Warrick will never have the PnR intangibles Amare brought and PnR is not 3/4 explosiveness. To be a great PnR'er, you gotta have great hands to catch the pass, strength to take contact, solid jumper to complement the roll, be a solid screener, have the speed/maneuverability to take what the defense gives you and the ability to finish either on a dunk or with the soft touch. Amare was great at every single one of those aspects of the PnR and his athleticism made him even better. But the two things that stood out the most about Amare's PnR ability which many big men don't possess is Amare's excellent soft touch/feel around the hoop and his great hands. Amare's soft touch allowed him to finish at the rim even if he can't get close enough for the dunk, which 9 times out of 10 does not. His great hands also allowed him to catch passes from Nash which most big man can't. Too many people think the PnR is all Nash but just as Nash makes AMare look good by making it easy for him to score, Amare does the same by catching Nash's hard passes and finishing over the defense.

Warrick can run the PnR, but so can many players and they'd probably look half decent too when they play next to Nash, but Warrick (from what I've seen) lacks the feel around the hoop and he's not especially strong.Warrick will be a PnR player next to Nash and I expect him to be a serviceable PnR'er with his decent mid-range shot and his athleticism, but the ability to be dunk and quickness for a big man doesn't necessarily make him a good PnR'er.

Hedo will add another dimension to our offense and I think he will be a good player in our system but I still think Amare's ability to score in the paint makes this a slight downgrade.

On to Defense... do you people really think that the void left by AMAR'E STOUDEMIRE.... and Turk/Frye/Warrick/Lawal/Clark can team against the second best.

Defensively, I think it'll be a wash quite frankly. Amare was hardly a defensive presence but neither is Warrick or Hedo. Hedo is a smarter defensive player so maybe he'll be better, I dunno but he's also a pretty poor rebounder and so is Warrick. Neither Lawal nor Clark will see significant minutes unless Lawal somehow earns his minutes by outplaying Warrick.

People are being extremely pessimistic about our chances, and I'm okay with that. They'll be eating their words soon enough. The 2010-11 Suns are simply too versatile. They can probably mach up against any team. This is not to say that we WILL beat every team out there. But IMO, it is true that we CAN beat any team in a seven game series.

Let the disagreeing with me commence.

We are very versatile and also extremely deep. I dunno if it's possible to be too versatile but I think we could be. Versatility is good but we may be one of those jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none teams. The one thing we're very good at is 3PT shooting but that is a double edged sword, the more you rely on the 3, the more it'll hurt you as you fall in love with it.

Turk was a disaster last season (inb4 Turk in Toronto excuses) and he's a worse scorer/rebounder than Amare and to add insult to injury he's our starting PF. I do agree that Childress will help this team over LB ecspecially on defense. Very excited about Lawal and he def has higher all around potential than Lou. Warrick has been a joke very since he was drafted but could be a solid player off the bench. The bottom line is there's enough terrible teams in this league to run n gun thru, we're strickly a jump-shooting team that can probably sneak in the playoffs. If anything it should be fun to watch.

who remembers back in the day, where Nash and Marion would have at least 2 or 3 alley-oops almost every game?

well, i think J-Chill would go perfectly with that. Idk about you guys, but in my opinion, JChill is like the recreation of Shawn Marion. Same defense, nearly the same height, long arms, explosiveness, similar jump shot, etc etc etc. So i think we got a younger Marion back. that's a plus.

next: i see many small traits of Amar'e in Hakim. Maybe he's not as strong or soft with the ball, but he can improve. I see a lot of improvement in him. Plus, the traits of Amar'e that Hakim can't pull through for, Amar'e will be able to. Hedo stretches out to the three, has a solid jumper, and can also go to the hole. Hedo will be good in the P&R in those terms, and Hakim will be good in P&R explosiveness-wise. So on those terms, we're pretty good.

We'll let Hedo take over the outside, and maybe even let Nash be the shooter. While this is happening, Lopez has the paint all to himself. So we'll have Nash/Hedo with the ball, J-Rich and Hill on the wings ready to shoot or cut to the basket, and Lopez in the middle.
Off the bench, it'll be Dragic with the ball, JChill ready to cut and get a nice alleyoop, Duds ready to bust a three, Frye on the other side of the 3-point line, and Hakim in the paint area.
So we're pretty set

They slam the suns every year. I think last year was even worse, can someone dig that up?

Frye is not overpaid, he was offered more from chicago/clippers I believe and gave us a hometown discount. It is what it is, ESPN would have slammed us even more if we let him walk.

We are going to love Childress, I promise this.

Losing Kerr was huge, and the absence of the power in our forwards will definitely been the biggest factor in our future.

I prefer to be underdogs and under the radar anyway.

I can't stand EEEEEESPPNNNNNN! They always write useless crap, and seem to always slam the suns. I agree that Channing didn't deserve that much money, but the gooden and amir johnson deals kind of dictated that amount. Only in comparison to those signings i would say that we really didn't overpay.

I am thrilled with the JChill signing, and i agree with sunsfan3 about how he pretty much brings the same skill set as Marion did.

I always like Hedo as a player, and also for his late game heroics. I think he's going to be a great in this system! I am still not sure what about to expect with him playing at PF, but its not a terrible idea.

Anyways, does anyone else hate the ESPN reporter sign off as much as i do?

This is BLANK BLANK reporting from BLANK for EEEEEEESPPNNNNN!

lilfishi22 wrote:Da_Reel_Kboy made a good point about Lawal being thought of as a replace for Lou but he mentioned how Lawal might not even have enough minutes on the court to bring the hustle/defense that Lou brought. With guys like Hedo, Warrick and Frye in front of him and being a rookie, I see very little minutes for him. I hope Warrick makes me eat my words, but I think his signing was the wrong move. I thought we could've gotten better production (defensively) for cheaper if we had resigned Lou to a deal around $2-3m.

Warrick will never have the PnR intangibles Amare brought and PnR is not 3/4 explosiveness. To be a great PnR'er, you gotta have great hands to catch the pass, strength to take contact, solid jumper to complement the roll, be a solid screener, have the speed/maneuverability to take what the defense gives you and the ability to finish either on a dunk or with the soft touch. Amare was great at every single one of those aspects of the PnR and his athleticism made him even better. But the two things that stood out the most about Amare's PnR ability which many big men don't possess is Amare's excellent soft touch/feel around the hoop and his great hands. Amare's soft touch allowed him to finish at the rim even if he can't get close enough for the dunk, which 9 times out of 10 does not. His great hands also allowed him to catch passes from Nash which most big man can't. Too many people think the PnR is all Nash but just as Nash makes AMare look good by making it easy for him to score, Amare does the same by catching Nash's hard passes and finishing over the defense.

Warrick can run the PnR, but so can many players and they'd probably look half decent too when they play next to Nash, but Warrick (from what I've seen) lacks the feel around the hoop and he's not especially strong.Warrick will be a PnR player next to Nash and I expect him to be a serviceable PnR'er with his decent mid-range shot and his athleticism, but the ability to be dunk and quickness for a big man doesn't necessarily make him a good PnR'er.

Hedo will add another dimension to our offense and I think he will be a good player in our system but I still think Amare's ability to score in the paint makes this a slight downgrade.

We are very versatile and also extremely deep. I dunno if it's possible to be too versatile but I think we could be. Versatility is good but we may be one of those jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none teams. The one thing we're very good at is 3PT shooting but that is a double edged sword, the more you rely on the 3, the more it'll hurt you as you fall in love with it.

The minutes point is a good point. But we definitely have more skill and depth, and considering we were pretty much the deeoest team in the league last year... that saying something.

Well, what I mean to say is that Warrick is a WAYYY better offensive option then Lou, and is, in fact, an above average P&R player. I base that on scouting reports I've read about him. If he can work well with the rest of our tremendous bench, then we will have a better second unit then we did last year. If Warrick can come in and be good on the pick and rolls half the times Amar'e was we'll be fine, and I assure you that he can be that good.

On depth and versatility is where I disagree with you most. We have too many options and linups and the perfect coach. WE have tools to best any team in a 7 game series.

DirtyDez wrote:Turk was a disaster last season (inb4 Turk in Toronto excuses) and he's a worse scorer/rebounder than Amare and to add insult to injury he's our starting PF. I do agree that Childress will help this team over LB ecspecially on defense. Very excited about Lawal and he def has higher all around potential than Lou. Warrick has been a joke very since he was drafted but could be a solid player off the bench. The bottom line is there's enough terrible teams in this league to run n gun thru, we're strickly a jump-shooting team that can probably sneak in the playoffs. If anything it should be fun to watch.

You really think that? And you really think that we can't hang with the best teams? Really? I'm just curious.

Jchill is a good pick up but he is not the Matrix. You are seriously under valuing what Marion did for us. He was a top defender always gaurding the other teams best player from CP3 to Dirk to Timmy. Shawn was one of the best rebounders in the league. Sure Bruce Bowen shut him down a bit in the playoffs, but Prime Matrix was way better than childress. I loved watching the Matrix play one of my favorite players. People say Nash made 7 seconds or less, but Marion was just as big a piece to that as Nash especially the year Amare was out.

nashrambler13 wrote:On depth and versatility is where I disagree with you most. We have too many options and linups and the perfect coach. WE have tools to best any team in a 7 game series.

How many lineups can beat this season's Laker lineup? It doesn't matter if you have 100 lineups if only 1 or 2 has a chance. I don't think it's our versatility that will make us good, it's our depth that will make us competitive.

nashrambler13 wrote:

DirtyDez wrote:Turk was a disaster last season (inb4 Turk in Toronto excuses) and he's a worse scorer/rebounder than Amare and to add insult to injury he's our starting PF.

You really think that? And you really think that we can't hang with the best teams? Really? I'm just curious.

It's a fact that Amare is a better rebounder and scorer than Hedo.

whambamslam wrote:Jchill is a good pick up but he is not the Matrix. You are seriously under valuing what Marion did for us. He was a top defender always gaurding the other teams best player from CP3 to Dirk to Timmy. Shawn was one of the best rebounders in the league. Sure Bruce Bowen shut him down a bit in the playoffs, but Prime Matrix was way better than childress. I loved watching the Matrix play one of my favorite players. People say Nash made 7 seconds or less, but Marion was just as big a piece to that as Nash especially the year Amare was out.

I am not saying that JCHILL is at the level that trix was at, but that he brings the same skill set. Matrix at his prime was a bona fide allstar which i don't think JChill will come close to. But what he does do is give us a versatile player like trix that we can move around defensively maybe not PF or C. On the offensive end he can break out and run with the same type of athleticism.

What made Matrix unique and the reason he was my favorite sun, was the unlimited amounted of hustle he gave. We didn't call many plays for him, but he always put up allstar numbers even before Nash was there. I remember the season you are talking with amare out, i remember that there was a stretch in the season where he was putting MVP numbers. In that stretch he had a game where he put up 44 versus the celtics, which is one my all-time favorite memory of him. That whole season and even in the playoffs that year, we got the all-time best performances for the Matrix!

I love it when they underestimate the suns, thats what motivated the team last year and its going to motivate them even more this year because not only do they know they can do it but they are projected even lower this time. The team knows about these predictions and they will use it to their advantage.

Chad Ford can write whatever he wants. Us Suns fans knows he's wrong, and so do everyone else in the NBA.

Lets move on people, I'm not going to waste my time reading garbage like this.

lilfishi22 wrote:

nashrambler13 wrote:On depth and versatility is where I disagree with you most. We have too many options and linups and the perfect coach. WE have tools to best any team in a 7 game series.

How many lineups can beat this season's Laker lineup? It doesn't matter if you have 100 lineups if only 1 or 2 has a chance. I don't think it's our versatility that will make us good, it's our depth that will make us competitive.

nashrambler13 wrote:

DirtyDez wrote:Turk was a disaster last season (inb4 Turk in Toronto excuses) and he's a worse scorer/rebounder than Amare and to add insult to injury he's our starting PF.

You really think that? And you really think that we can't hang with the best teams? Really? I'm just curious.

It's a fact that Amare is a better rebounder and scorer than Hedo.

I agree he's a better rebounder, but do you really think that Amar'e is a better scorer than Hedo? Without Nash? Hedo definitly has more skill and craftiness to make up for his lack of strength. Amar'e can have rebounding, they both suck at that, but do you really think that Hedo isn't at least at Amar'es level scoring wise?

Nash/Dudley/Hedo/Lawal/Lopez

Nash/JChill/Hedo/Frye/Lopez

Nash/Hill/Hedo/Frye/Lopez

Nash/JRich/Hedo/Lawal/Lopez

I think those teams have a fighting chance against the Lakers. Amar'e didn't do squat last year vs. them. The problem was Kobe.

lilfishi22 wrote:It's a fact that Amare is a better rebounder and scorer than Hedo.

Actually, it is a fact that Amare scores more points and averages more rebounds. It is not a fact that he is a better rebounder or scorer. If Hedo can boxout better and keep his man from getting excellent position, he will already be leaps and bounds above Amare.

Oh, and I thought I was the one who made the point about Lawal's minutes.

From the middle of page two of the "Lou isn't signed yet" thread:

"I understand that Lawal could be a Lou replacement, but if he can't get on the floor and Warrick is taking Lou's minutes, it seems like a moot idea."

Even on the web, where the value of paper and the saving of tress is not an issue, Ford is not worth reading

nashrambler13 wrote:I agree he's a better rebounder, but do you really think that Amar'e is a better scorer than Hedo? Without Nash? Hedo definitly has more skill and craftiness to make up for his lack of strength. Amar'e can have rebounding, they both suck at that, but do you really think that Hedo isn't at least at Amar'es level scoring wise?

Without Nash, Hedo is a better shot creator. Amare benefited a lot with some of his highest scoring seasons with Nash besides him. But Hedo also benefited when he was putting up close to 20ppg with Dwight Howard taking pressure off him at the perimeter. Is Hedo a 22-25ppg with Nash? Not at this point in his career.

RunDogGun wrote:Actually, it is a fact that Amare scores more points and averages more rebounds. It is not a fact that he is a better rebounder or scorer. If Hedo can boxout better and keep his man from getting excellent position, he will already be leaps and bounds above Amare.

Oh, and I thought I was the one who made the point about Lawal's minutes.

From the middle of page two of the "Lou isn't signed yet" thread:

"I understand that Lawal could be a Lou replacement, but if he can't get on the floor and Warrick is taking Lou's minutes, it seems like a moot idea."

Actually it is a fact that Amare is a better rebounder. If Hedo can box out "better" and rebound more so can Amare but neither has shown the willingess/ability to do so, so what they "could" hypothetically do is a moot point. Amare could be leaps and bounds better than he really is if he had box out better and rebounded more too. Amare has a career TRB%(best, 17%) of 14.7% which is poor for a guy with his physical tools but Hedo is hardly better with a career TRB%(best, 9.8%) of 8.6%.

As far as scoring goes, Hedo will benefit from having Nash around to take pressure off him just as Amare did, but Hedo is a better shot creator. Hedo has never really been a number 1 scoring option for his team though. When he was with Orlando, he was still a 2nd banana behind Dwight. Amare has been our go-to option for since his rookie season.

Oh and I apologize with my bad referencing.