RealGM

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:59 pm**

http://arizona.sbnation.com/2010/12/29/ ... e#comments

The lack of spacing is really, really killing our 2nd unit, and Frye is now an integral part of this team.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:06 pm**

EDIT: My little summary below should not preclude you from reading the entire article. I think it really points out some key issues and can generate good discussion. Not sure why but on forums a lot of people just ignore links.

Due to the way our roster is built, we have some issues.

1) Nash NEEDS spacing to thrive. That's why we start Channing instead of Gortat at the 4.
2) Dragic, as has been shown this season, also needs spacing to thrive. That's why the bench was so epic last season: it was Goran surrounded by shooters+Lou. Now it's Goran playing with Gortat/Hakim....
3) Both the starters and the bench NEED Channing. Problem is, we can't clone the dude.
4) Conclusion: We need to get another stretch 4. Either a dominant(or at least starting caliber one) that will allow Frye to go back to the bench, or a good backup stretch 4.

This team is poorly constructed. Very, very much so.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:17 pm**

Two questions though

1) Could Channing playing PF be a factor on why this team is so bad defensively?

2) When they had (Diaw/Amare) they weren't stretch fours and the team seemed to do just fine, so is the article saying only a stretch four can help the system?

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:17 pm**

I don't think we necessarily "need" channing frye, don't believe he's the key to our offense either. We need a a good 4 man. If we're at the point where we need softy to chuck 3s, maybe even 2 of him to win, its time to rebuild right now. We lost Amare, a superstar, and now we're hurting(hate to go back to this). I think replacing frye or warrick, or both with a good pf will do this team a lot of good. We need amare damn it. A 4 who can shoot a midrange jumper is sufficient, don't think we "need" a couple of 3 point chuckers at the 4. That's not a recipe for winning. Alot of it comes down to trying to fill amare's void at the pf spot with hakim warrick and channing frye. 2 role players at the very best. I think our problems are clear and obvious. We've all been saying it for awhile. We need a real power forward alot of our problems stem from this. Defense is a whole other monster though, that frye isn't helping either.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:20 pm**

MaryvalesFinest wrote:Two questions though

1) Could Channing playing PF be a factor on why this team is so bad defensively?

2) When they had (Diaw/Amare) they weren't stretch fours and the team seemed to do just fine, so is the article saying only a stretch four can help the system?

Frye at the 4 may be a problem defensively. I haven't looked at the stats, but as far as the eye-test goes, I think he's doing a pretty good job IMO.

Diaw/Amare could never play well together partially because neither one of them was a true stretch 4. However, the article outlines WHY Amare was so important to our team last season:

Seth Pollack wrote:Of course, for that formula to work, it also needs the offense to be great and, for the Suns, that's revolved around Steve Nash and his ability to handle the ball, get into the lane and make **** happen. Pick-and-roll or drive and kick -- that's how the Suns scored so efficiently over the years.

And while Nash is the engine that makes that machine go, the unsung hero has been the tires that carry the load. Or is it the windows that let you see? Or maybe the satellite navigation system that helps you find your way?

And regardless of the cheesy metaphor, we mean the floor spacing.

For the Suns' "Nash System" to work on offense, the floor has to be spaced and that means there can only be one big man in the lane who doesn't have decent range. Four shooters surrounding one big man in the paint is a classic NBA alignment, but for the Suns, that "big man" has been Steve Nash. He's the one who needs the painted area relatively free so he can do his best work.

Last year, Phoenix reached its offensive pinnacle with Amare Stoudemire being able to both space the floor for Robin Lopez and, of course, play in the paint with Steve Nash when Channing Frye was in the game.

This principle even extended to the second unit last season where Lou Amundson was the only big on the floor who couldn't shoot (and boy, could he not shoot). That left the lane open for Dragic to penetrate and find the open man -- either Lou in the paint, where he would occasionally hang on to the pass and finish, or a shooter spotted up at the arc.

It wasn't Nash/Amare, but it worked because Dragic can get into the lane and make **** happen, too.

But when Amare blew out of town like a high-priced tumbleweed, it turned out that it wasn't his pick-and-roll finishing abilities that were most missed. It was his ability to both space the floor for Lopez AND finish on the pick-and-roll that left the big hole big enough to drive Robin Lopez's hair through.

The Suns tried to replace that with two guys who each could do one of those things.

Hakim Warrick can finish the hell out of the pick-and-roll, but can't space his way out of a paper bag. Hedo Turkoglu created more space than a chaperon at a Catholic prep school dance, but couldn't roll down a hill if he was laying on his side and given a big shove. And those two combined to make Amare look like the love child of Kevin Love and Joakim Noah on the defensive and rebounding parts of the game.

Now the Suns have given up on the Hedo as a power forward and gone in a more conventional direction by bringing in another space-eating big man in Marcin Gortat. But that leaves the team with a problem that threatens the entire offensive way of life known as "Steve Nash."

Instead of having two bigs who can spread the floor (Amare and Frye, or Hedo and Frye), the Suns now have three bigs who can't space the floor (Lopez, Gortat and Warrick) and only one who can (Frye).

As we've seen already, Nash can make any of those three bigs look good as long as Frye is on the court camped out at the three point line. But Frye can't play 48 minutes, so what happens when he goes to the bench?

The answer is the second unit sputters and stalls like Hedo Turkoglu rolling down a hill while tied to a chaperon at a Catholic prep school dance.

There's a lot more at the link if you haven't read it.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:22 pm**

AH man, this is making me realize how much trouble we're really in. This isn't a good team at all.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:33 pm**

If Channing **** Frye is the KEY to our offense, we're screwed. We should not depend on a streaky role player.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:37 pm**

Calvin Klein wrote:If Channing **** Frye is the KEY to our offense, we're screwed. We should not depend on a streaky role player.

Which is why we need another 4 that can provide some spacing. Channing is doing his best, but he's a role player. When he's on, we usually win. When he's off, we lose.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:53 pm**

Lets not get to far ahead of ourselves as to what type of player channing has become and has always been. Channing is a guy who starts the season starting but by the end of the season he is riding the pine. He did it in NY. He did in Portland. Channing is in no way shape or form a starting PF on a western conference contender. channing at best is a 7th or 8th man. He does allow spacing for the guys like Amare, Steve, and Goran to do their thing but he cant do that as a PF. If he decides to camp out on the 3 point line then he has to be the center. With the new roster shifting to a more traditional roster, channing non traditional style of play starts to become ineffective. He is not key to our offense, Amare was the key to our offense last season. This season whomever decides to become a post presence will be key to this team.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:06 pm**

rsavaj wrote:
Calvin Klein wrote:If Channing **** Frye is the KEY to our offense, we're screwed. We should not depend on a streaky role player.

Which is why we need another 4 that can provide some spacing. Channing is doing his best, but he's a role player. When he's on, we usually win. When he's off, we lose.

We had another guy who could stretch the floor. His name was Turkoglu. He also could put the ball on the floor and pass, something Frye can't do. Oh, and he could also play defense. Look at his play against Dirk, Josh Smith and Paul Pierce since he's been played at his proper position. Absolutely biggest mistake this coaching staff has made this year not using him properly. The team we had to start the year could have been very similar to last year but Gentry quite frankly doesn't have vision. A shame really but I'm sure Hedo's quite happy where he is now.

Posted: **Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:32 pm**

tell me who is the key to our defense? if i got the article right than i got the point where dragic was a pentrate and create type of player. after watching the last game goran did all but didn´t penetrate. he passed the ball to the player on the free throw line and that was it. we need some defense on the 2nd unit. and i don´t mean that we need lou in the second unit, we just need to make clear that we fight and hold to other team down. thats all i´m asking from the 2nd unit.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:19 pm**

Really good article. I think some people are really missing the point. It's not the points he scores, it's the spacing. He opens boulevards for the other guys to get to the rim. Our problem is the second unit--last year it was awesome. This year it's horrendous. The frontcourt was Lou and Frye, which provided both defense and spacing on offense.

Move Frye to the first unit, and that unit is still as good offensively as ever, even without Amare. But the second unit is awful.

By the way, the Suns best net defensive ratings (min 200 minutes with Suns) are:
1) Dudley
2) Frye
3) Warrick
4) Nash
5) Childress

Frye is a good defender. The defensive struggles are not his fault.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:51 pm**

Gulp

Our success depends on a streaky shooter. ? I see your point Soles... but when the guy is chucking brick after brick, teams just let him shoot. He doesnt have the mind to be an assassin at the arc.

And really.... what do we need the inside open for anymore ? Who has a post game ? Is it just so Nash can dribble about dribble about ? Most of his dribbling results in a pass out to a wing for a 3ball or one of his junky layups, which have not been as consistent.

Personally, I think we should play Dragic with Nash more, and let 'the league's best shooter' shoot. It was strange, but I thought the two or three games we played with the depleted line up showed some new wrinkled promise.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:58 pm**

Frank Lee wrote:Gulp

Our success depends on a streaky shooter. ? I see your point Soles... but when the guy is chucking brick after brick, teams just let him shoot. He doesnt have the mind to be an assassin at the arc.

And really.... what do we need the inside open for anymore ? Who has a post game ? Is it just so Nash can dribble about dribble about ? Most of his dribbling results in a pass out to a wing for a 3ball or one of his junky layups, which have not been as consistent.

Personally, I think we should play Dragic with Nash more, and let 'the league's best shooter' shoot. It was strange, but I thought the two or three games we played with the depleted line up showed some new wrinkled promise.

Exactly. I know what the article means, but we should not depend on a streaky role player. As Frank said, there's not really someone to open the inside for...Gortat? Maybe...Lopez? he has been terrible at it.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:16 pm**

Los Soles wrote:
By the way, the Suns best net defensive ratings (min 200 minutes with Suns) are:
1) Dudley
2) Frye
3) Warrick
4) Nash
5) Childress

Frye is a good defender. The defensive struggles are not his fault.

Amazing how you use statistics. You defend Frye using statistics that are clearly flawed. Anyone who's watched the Suns this year knows Warrick is god awful at defense. And Nash is not far behind. So how relevant are they. I'm not saying Frye is a poor defender. I think he's adequate and improving but I'm not basing that on some arcane stat.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:18 pm**

Frank Lee wrote:Our success depends on a streaky shooter. ? I see your point Soles... but when the guy is chucking brick after brick, teams just let him shoot.

Every three point shooter is a somewhat streaky; that's simply a matter of probability. He's shooting 36.1%, which is not great--not close to last year's 43.9%--but certainly not bad. Part of the success of last year was playing four out with four three point shooters, because someone's going to get a wide open look. We haven't done that this year much at all. He's taking a lot more contested threes than last year.

Frank Lee wrote:And really.... what do we need the inside open for anymore ? Who has a post game ? Is it just so Nash can dribble about dribble about ?

Are you serious?!?!? Drives, pick-and-roll, dribble-ats, backdoor cuts, EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON SPACING. If the paint is clogged, we don't get to the rim. We don't get dunks, layups, floaters, anything.

Last year, with Nash, we scored 117 points per 100 possessions.
This year, with Nash, we're scoring 116 points per 100 possessions.

Frank Lee wrote:Personally, I think we should play Dragic with Nash more, and let 'the league's best shooter' shoot. It was strange, but I thought the two or three games we played with the depleted line up showed some new wrinkled promise.

I think we should let the league's best passer, shooter, and decision-maker do his thing (but the Nash + Dragic idea isn't so horrible). Keep the ball in the hands of the best offensive player of the past decade.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:28 pm**

Los Soles wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Our success depends on a streaky shooter. ? I see your point Soles... but when the guy is chucking brick after brick, teams just let him shoot.

Every three point shooter is a somewhat streaky; that's simply a matter of probability. He's shooting 36.1%, which is not great--not close to last year's 43.9%--but certainly not bad. Part of the success of last year was playing four out with four three point shooters, because someone's going to get a wide open look. We haven't done that this year much at all. He's taking a lot more contested threes than last year.

Frank Lee wrote:And really.... what do we need the inside open for anymore ? Who has a post game ? Is it just so Nash can dribble about dribble about ?

Are you serious?!?!? Drives, pick-and-roll, dribble-ats, backdoor cuts, EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON SPACING. If the paint is clogged, we don't get to the rim. We don't get dunks, layups, floaters, anything.

Last year, with Nash, we scored 117 points per 100 possessions.
This year, with Nash, we're scoring 116 points per 100 possessions.

Frank Lee wrote:Personally, I think we should play Dragic with Nash more, and let 'the league's best shooter' shoot. It was strange, but I thought the two or three games we played with the depleted line up showed some new wrinkled promise.

I think we should let the league's best passer, shooter, and decision-maker do his thing (but the Nash + Dragic idea isn't so horrible). Keep the ball in the hands of the best offensive player of the past decade.

Excellent post. Absolutely excellent.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:23 pm**

Look Soles, I respect your statistical analysis and BB opinions, but the fact remains... we have had no inside game this yr at all, offense or defense. I do not know how you can label a player a Power Forward when he spends 90% of his time 20' away from the hoop. Frye is a chucker, and an inconsistent one at that. You can tell when he is going to miss when his feet/form are rushed. The guy needs a midrange game, much like Dudley acquired.

Yes, I know spacing is important, especially to Nash's game... but I am growing weary of watching him dribble around and around while 3 guys camp outside the arc, and our center sets a high pick. May be Gortat will evolve into a P n R partner for Nash.... but dare I say... when teams take that away, is Nash rendered a mere mortal? Is that all we have ?

Our offense appears to be rather stagnant and predictable. 3 guys camp out and wait....Nash dribbles left, the Center sets a high pick, Nash dives in, dribbles under the hoop and passes to a wing in the corner, who either shoots it or passes to frye around the top. One shot as all our players are 10 ft from the hoop. Is it just me, or is this the blueprint for 75-80% of our offense? We are doing the same thing we did last year, except we no longer have the best finisher rolling to the hoop. Was it actually Amare's presence in the paint that opened up the perimeter ?

I dont profess to know basketball strategies (ie coaching) as well as some of you, but I can smell pig **** when I'm close to the hogs. And if we are relying on Frye as our 'key piece' for this offense to work, then we are knee deep in it. Channing is a back up center. That is where I see him as being the most effective. May be I am wrong.

Posted: **Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:56 pm**

Frank Lee wrote:Personally, I think we should play Dragic with Nash more, and let 'the league's best shooter' shoot. It was strange, but I thought the two or three games we played with the depleted line up showed some new wrinkled promise.

I thought it was the best we've looked this year

Posted: **Sat Jan 1, 2011 8:05 am**

Calvin Klein wrote:If Channing **** Frye is the KEY to our offense, we're screwed. We should not depend on a streaky role player.

Exactly what I was going to post. If our team is built solely around the movements of a 7'0 SG/C, how can we possibly contend, or even have a chance of making the playoffs.

What other PF's are there which has a good mid/long range jumper to help space the floor? Here is my list:

Josh Smith
Boris Diaw
Ryan Anderson
Marvin Williams (??)
Charlie Villanueva
Jason Thompson
Andrea Bargnani
LaMarcus Aldridge

There are not many out there....

RealGM

Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

Re: Good article: Channing is the key to our offense