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It feels like the first year or so of the Kerr regime. They tried to pound the "defense, defense, defense" thing but they ended up trading away all our defensive players. KT gone, Marion gone, Bell gone, Diaw gone.

All they did. All they said. The media and the fans. All they went on about was defense. D'Antoni's defense. Crappy defense. You won't go anywhere without defense. The organization bought into it. They bought into the hype. They didn't realize that under D'Antoni, the defense was good enough. They kept saying we'll never do anything. Did they watch those series? Did they see what I saw? Did they see what many saw? Did they see us lead every fourth quarter of the WCF in 2005? Closest five-game-series ever? Did they see us have to play with six, seven players in 2006, after coming back from 3-1 down and taking the bigger, badder, hungrier Clippers to 7 games? Did they see us get dicked by a corrupted referee and with suspensions in 2007, and still only losing by three with a depleted roster in Game 5 of that series? What did any of that have to do with defense? They bought into the hype. They figured everyone else knew better.

They didnt. trust. their. strengths.

They started to get cute. They didn't see that we need perimeter defense against the quicker guards of the West (the Spurs). They didn't see that we needed rebounding. We only needed rebounding. And a little luck. They didn't see. What were we left with? Nothing. And the offensive genius was ushered out the door.

Slowly but surely, we got rid of our strengths. Bit by damn bit. We got rid of what made us as good as we are. It boggles the mind. You do not improve upon your weaknesses by disposing of your strengths. And that's what we did. The team was left in shambles, and continues to be dismantled and tinkered with, just for the sake of tinkering. Now we've created a monster, and we have no idea how to live it down.

We have no identity. What are we supposed to be? I understand the roster shakeups are hard to work with, but honestly I'm getting weary of making another deal right now too, just because I'm scared of how much more work its going to take it make it work. Gentry is already a limited coach, its not right to make it even harder.

Now, we're supposed to be a running team, but we haven't surrounded Nash with the shooters he needs. Traded away Turkoglu and J-Rich. Got rid of Barbosa (for Turk, I know). Also took away Nash's bread n' butter PnR partner. How are we going to score? It's just all up in the air nonsense now. We held the Lakers to 99 points. We hold the Lakers to 99, we should win, no questions asked.

We can't outscore people, because we don't have the guns to do so anymore. We can't play defense, because even if we play defense (which we can at times) we can't close out defensive possessions by grabbing rebounds.

All I know is, I'm starting to not give a **** about rebounding as much as I'm worried about how this offense looks. We were never going to be a superstar defensive team. All we needed was a rebounder during the Amare days. Camby, Chandler, etc. Those days are gone. BUT, now we have no offense, and quite frankly, it's killer that we no longer "only" need that rebounder.

Just a few rambling thoughts late at night. We don't know what we want to do. I don't advise blowing it up. It's stupid to do so. It needs to be shortened, made concise. Contrary to popular belief, we do have a really strong future. We're going to have a **** of capspace with tons of movable contracts, and we have (as of now) two picks in the first round. We have two seven footers, we have a slashing combo guard, we have a versatile unsung stud, and we have a new heart-and-soul in Jared Dudley.

In order to "be", you must know what you "are".

The blueprints for our identity:

1) 2005-2006 Phoenix Suns
2) 2010-2011 New York Knicks
3) 2009-2010 Orlando Magic
4) 2009-2010 Phoenix Suns

Simple schemes, run, SSOL, let Nash freewheel, athletes and three point shooters, spread the floor.

Basically, we should be doing exactly what the Knicks just did to us.

Except Knicks has a 30 point threath inside in Stoudemire... has a hustler do-it-all player in Chandler... and a bunch of players with a chip on their shoulders... and OH.... Felton looked like an MVP candidate out there... triple double?.. seriously...? WTF Nash.

But it's the style, too. We're not playing that style anymore, the style that Nash thrives in. We've done it without Stat before. We have the personnel. We're just not doing it.

Felton had miles of space out there...the kind of space that made Dragic look so amazing last year. And whenever Felton gave it up...the Knicks punished us and punished us quickly.

They made 17 threes. We made 6. That's 33 points difference.

But that also opens up boulevards for layups and dunks.

Los Soles wrote:But it's the style, too. We're not playing that style anymore, the style that Nash thrives in. We've done it without Stat before. We have the personnel. We're just not doing it.

+100000

Our identity should be crystal clear:
as long as Nash is here, our only choice is to be a run 'n gun team and concentrate on offense first and defense second. It's the only way we have had success during the Nash-era. Right now we are neither here nor there. One minute we are doing one thing, the next something else.

I mean even during the epic fail of the Porter-era we had an identity. The wrong identity of course but at least it was something.

Currently there is no direction, no gameplan, no nothing.

Three of the Magic's top four units from the playoffs last year:

1) Williams, Jason - Carter, Vince - Barnes, Matt - Lewis, Rashard - Gortat, Marcin
3) Nelson, Jameer - Carter, Vince - Barnes, Matt - Lewis, Rashard - Gortat, Marcin
4) Nelson, Jameer - Carter, Vince - Pietrus, Mickael - Lewis, Rashard - Gortat, Marcin

Steve Nash>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jason Williams
Steve Nash>>>>>>>Jameer Nelson
Jared Dudley>>>Matt Barnes
Channing Frye>Rashard Lewis

You cannot have a team with the numbers of small forwards this team has to have an identity:

Grant HIll
Jared Dudley
Michael Pietrus
Josh Childress
Channing Frye
Hakim Warrick

All small forwards. Oh, how a guy like Lou Amundson would be so helpful to this team this year.

Its going to take trading the JYD (which I find sad) - along with Warrick and Carter to get anything of value.

This is the worst I've seen us in quite some time. It's time for a blow up. We want to be a fast break team, but how can you do that with a 37 year old point guard, 34 year old shooting guard, 38 year old small forward....no power player to speak of? There just aren't enough athletes on the team.

Trade for youth now. There are a lot of young former high draft picks available right now. The draft next year is somewhat weak. We will not make the playoffs...so what are we waiting for? It's a perfect time to get rid of our vets....with the CBA looming. There are a lot of teams that are trying to get over the hump, and a Grant Hill/Steve Nash/Vince Carter could help them do that.

While I agree somewhat with the original premise that the Suns have no identity, there are two factors causing this that most refuse to fully acknowledge.

The first problem is that while the Suns are trying to play a scaled down version of SSOL, they really don’t have the personal to do so properly after the trade. No one on this board wants to accept it but the fact is Orlando got two of the Suns three best players and Suns got little in return to help them play their style. Downgrades in shooting, speed and passing with no real improvements elsewhere leave the Suns with a real lack of talent. Prior to trade the Suns really weren’t that bad. That team had the potential to gel and become something similar to last year. I can’t see how this team can do that given the personnel.

The other problem is that Gentry is such a poor defensive coach that the Suns can’t get any rhythm going on the offensive side. It’s hard to play with any confidence on the offensive end when you’re falling apart on defense. The blame for this has to rest squarely on Gentry’s shoulders. Last night while watching the Magic game on ESPN, Jeff Van Gundy said that defense in the NBA is predicated on two things. One is defending the basket and two is coaching. Defending the basket is largely personnel dependant so Gentry can only work with what he has but other than that he’s responsible for constructing a team defensive strategy appropriate to his players abilities. While the Suns will never be a lock down defensive team they should at least be average.

I really see little hope of improving this team. About the only chance is a trade that will bring in upgraded talent but if that’s the path they’re going to take it better be soon. A few more losses to teams that they have to beat and you can write this season off.

BurningHeart wrote:It feels like the first year or so of the Kerr regime. They tried to pound the "defense, defense, defense" thing but they ended up trading away all our defensive players. KT gone, Marion gone, Bell gone, Diaw gone.

All they did. All they said. The media and the fans. All they went on about was defense. D'Antoni's defense. Crappy defense. You won't go anywhere without defense. The organization bought into it. They bought into the hype. They didn't realize that under D'Antoni, the defense was good enough. They kept saying we'll never do anything. Did they watch those series? Did they see what I saw? Did they see what many saw? Did they see us lead every fourth quarter of the WCF in 2005? Closest five-game-series ever? Did they see us have to play with six, seven players in 2006, after coming back from 3-1 down and taking the bigger, badder, hungrier Clippers to 7 games? Did they see us get dicked by a corrupted referee and with suspensions in 2007, and still only losing by three with a depleted roster in Game 5 of that series? What did any of that have to do with defense? They bought into the hype. They figured everyone else knew better.

They didnt. trust. their. strengths.

They started to get cute. They didn't see that we need perimeter defense against the quicker guards of the West (the Spurs). They didn't see that we needed rebounding. We only needed rebounding. And a little luck. They didn't see. What were we left with? Nothing. And the offensive genius was ushered out the door.

Slowly but surely, we got rid of our strengths. Bit by damn bit. We got rid of what made us as good as we are. It boggles the mind. You do not improve upon your weaknesses by disposing of your strengths. And that's what we did. The team was left in shambles, and continues to be dismantled and tinkered with, just for the sake of tinkering. Now we've created a monster, and we have no idea how to live it down.

We have no identity. What are we supposed to be? I understand the roster shakeups are hard to work with, but honestly I'm getting weary of making another deal right now too, just because I'm scared of how much more work its going to take it make it work. Gentry is already a limited coach, its not right to make it even harder.

Now, we're supposed to be a running team, but we haven't surrounded Nash with the shooters he needs. Traded away Turkoglu and J-Rich. Got rid of Barbosa (for Turk, I know). Also took away Nash's bread n' butter PnR partner. How are we going to score? It's just all up in the air nonsense now. We held the Lakers to 99 points. We hold the Lakers to 99, we should win, no questions asked.

We can't outscore people, because we don't have the guns to do so anymore. We can't play defense, because even if we play defense (which we can at times) we can't close out defensive possessions by grabbing rebounds.

All I know is, I'm starting to not give a **** about rebounding as much as I'm worried about how this offense looks. We were never going to be a superstar defensive team. All we needed was a rebounder during the Amare days. Camby, Chandler, etc. Those days are gone. BUT, now we have no offense, and quite frankly, it's killer that we no longer "only" need that rebounder.

Just a few rambling thoughts late at night. We don't know what we want to do. I don't advise blowing it up. It's stupid to do so. It needs to be shortened, made concise. Contrary to popular belief, we do have a really strong future. We're going to have a **** of capspace with tons of movable contracts, and we have (as of now) two picks in the first round. We have two seven footers, we have a slashing combo guard, we have a versatile unsung stud, and we have a new heart-and-soul in Jared Dudley.

In order to "be", you must know what you "are".

Perfect post.

I agree that the suns with gentry's help has lost their identity. you can not change ur starting line up based on who u are playing. U use the help you play ur strength. Gentry needs to start a center, a pg, a sg, a sf, and a PF. if they lose they lose but he cant be wishy washy. This was the reason that avery johnson lost his job. As far as the knicks go. They have better personel to play their system period! We lost lou which hurt our bench a lot. We lost amare which hurt our starters a lot. I look forward to babby getting fired.

ma_falaa_50 wrote:I agree that the suns with gentry's help has lost their identity. you can not change ur starting line up based on who u are playing. U use the help you play ur strength. Gentry needs to start a center, a pg, a sg, a sf, and a PF. if they lose they lose but he cant be wishy washy. This was the reason that avery johnson lost his job. As far as the knicks go. They have better personel to play their system period! We lost lou which hurt our bench a lot. We lost amare which hurt our starters a lot. I look forward to babby getting fired.

i look forward to sarver selling the team

To me, the identity of the team looks like this:

1/4 of the team consists of rental players

1/4 of the team consists of good but aging vets

1/4 of the team consists of marginal young talent

1/4 of the team consists of guys who got paid and decided to slack off

Agreed with Rav, perfect post from Burning - spot on. The fact that Gentry has the balls to roll THAT starting lineup out shows he has no idea what our identity is either

I'm all for experimentation. Really, I had no problem with that lineup. It was actually a step in the right direction with small-ball. Again though, after that, what do we do? The shooting wasn't there to get it work. The subs were questionable again.

There is TOO much guessing.

BurningHeart wrote:I'm all for experimentation. Really, I had no problem with that lineup. It was actually a step in the right direction with small-ball. Again though, after that, what do we do? The shooting wasn't there to get it work. The subs were questionable again.

There is TOO much guessing.

Yeh, nothing wrong with the small ball idea. The problem is we just don't have very good players. Aside from Nash, we really don't have anyone who is truly good. Basically we have Nash and role players. Plus, with the exception of Hill and Duds everyone is so inconsistent. Never sure what you're going to get. Top that off with an awful performance by Nash in the first quarter and not much better in the third and we get blown out.

One problem with this experimentation is that I have to believe a lot of the players are losing hope. Hard to believe Dragic, Lopez, Childress and Warrick are optimistic and that's got to effect their play.

I don't even know if we have role players. Roles aren't defined and skills are redundant.

Sundamental wrote:the fact is Orlando got two of the Suns three best players and Suns got little in return to help them play their style. Downgrades in shooting, speed and passing with no real improvements elsewhere leave the Suns with a real lack of talent. Prior to trade the Suns really weren’t that bad. That team had the potential to gel and become something similar to last year. I can’t see how this team can do that given the personnel.

you think Turkoglu was more valuable than Hill? Dudley? Frye? Maybe, but it wasnt panning out to be that way, or even beginning to look like that would be the case.

The trade is for next year. Carter, Pietrus, and hypothetically, Richardson wouldn't be on the roster next year. The Suns finally got a solid big but most of all got rid of a black hole contract at a redundant position (Childress & Dudley) which isnt very nice to have when trying to rebuild. The Suns are moving farther away from their past identity, yes, but either way I dont see any team developing a chemistry or style to get us to the level of last year, or even being a threat in the playoffs.

and BurningHeart I give your post a 10/10. Thanks for sharing.

Great post BH. Excellent examples in the alst two games. Against the Lakers we started with our usual wing lineup but with Gortat and Lopez up front. Against the Knicks we started with 4 wings and a PG. I'm all for making minor starting lineup adjustments (every team does that), but when you make such drastic changes in a span of ONE game, there's just no opportunity to develop any kind of identity. We stick with the starting lineup that plays well together offensively and make ROTATION adjustments where needed during the game. Don't start fricken 4 wings just because you're scared we'll get run out of the building. You start *your* lineup and impose *your* style/will/identity on the other team. Make the other team play to your strengths and if it doesn't work, then make the right adjustments. The last two games were perfect examples of a cop out even before the game began.

I think this team is one legit PnR PF way from being a pretty good team again but I also strongly believe that this team is better than the sub .500 team we are now even with the current roster. Gentry has to step up and say "This is the way we're playing and we're going to make the other teams play us the way we play (mmmkay)!" Forcing teams to run with us has always been the strength of SSOL and we need to bring back that mindset. Last season our defense didn't come until we established a potent and efficient offense. I'd like to credit Gentry for bringing in more of a defensive mindset last season, but a lot of the credit has to go to the 2nd unit just coming in with the single goal of just out-hustling teams on both ends of the court. Establish your starting lineup, your offense and the roles of our 2nd unit will become more defined allowing them play better.