RealGM

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:37 pm**

Two simple rules:

1) The Phoenix Suns are better with Steve Nash on the court.
2) The Phoenix Suns are better playing four-out with four 3-point shooters.

Combine #1 with #2. Give that group time together to work on offensive flow and defending as a unit.

In a year with absolute chaos with the roster and rotations, where throughout the more than 2,000 minutes of court time we've tried this and that and then this again...we have yet to play a single unit that follows those two simple rules for even 1% of the team's minutes.

:banghead:

1%. I would have done it for at least 50% of the minutes, but probably more like 70%. Everyone is bemoaning the loss of Stat...of JRich...or even of Turk, but the example of our second unit in last year's playoffs...no Stat, no JRich, no Nash, no Hill...maybe not a single player that would start on any other team in the league...against the Blazers, Spurs, and Lakers, all with tightened rotations, often against 3, 4, or even 5 starters...

Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye

96.62 playoff minutes
Offensive rating: 118.56.
Defensive rating: 102.91

Outperformed (according to APM):
Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Frye
Fisher-Kobe-Artest-Odom-Gasol
Rondo-Allen-Pierce-Davis-Garnett
MoWilliams-Parker-LeBron-Jamison-Shaq
Crawford-JJ-MarvinW-JSmoove-Horford
Billups-Afflalo-Carmelo-Kenyon-Nene
Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan
Kidd-Terry-Butler-Nowitzki-Haywood

:banghead:

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:40 pm**

if only statistics could play bball... But they don't.

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:53 pm**

Yep--I would argue that losing lynchpins from our fantastic bench last season was more detrimental to the team than losing Amar'e.

IMO, if the Suns truly truly wanted to win this season, they'd simply stop treating the Suns like a youth recreation league in which every player deserves to play. The reality is, Steve Nash and Jared Dudley need to be playing monstrous minutes together in order for the Suns to win. Warrick shouldn't see the court, and Dragic should be used VERY sparringly.

There's two ways to play basketball in the NBA:

1. Win, and play your best players/lineups
2. Don't win, and develop young guys and bench players at the expense of losing games

The Suns are trying to do both, and that simply doesn't compute.

Edit:

I'd also like to take this opportunity to take a dump on Goran Dragic, who has been one of the biggest problems with the Suns this season. At this point he's scared to take open shots, isn't playing good defense, and the true mark of his low confidence is his terrible FT shooting. IMO, he's too emotional a player to recover from it this year...

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:58 pm**

NiGhtWiSh wrote:if only statistics could play bball... But they don't.

The statistics being used by Los Soles aren't rudimentary statistics such as FG% or even PER--These statistics have been adjusted over a legitimate period of time and give great insight into how players react to each other, and how special last season's bench was. I wouldn't cast them aside as empty stats.

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:02 pm**

NiGhtWiSh wrote:if only statistics could play bball... But they don't.

My post was about basketball. Strategy? Yes. Statistics? Hardly. Let me simplify some of the statistics for you, since you're having such a hard time:

Goran Dragic, Leandro Barbosa, Jared Dudley, Louis Amundson, and Channing Frye played good together. In fact, they played really good together! They played better than a lot of other groups--even groups that have some amazing players like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, and Carmelo Anthony! Wow, isn't that surprising!

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:20 pm**

I hate Grant Hill.

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:48 pm**

Los Soles wrote:
NiGhtWiSh wrote:if only statistics could play bball... But they don't.

My post was about basketball. Strategy? Yes. Statistics? Hardly. Let me simplify some of the statistics for you, since you're having such a hard time:

Goran Dragic, Leandro Barbosa, Jared Dudley, Louis Amundson, and Channing Frye played good together. In fact, they played really good together! They played better than a lot of other groups--even groups that have some amazing players like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, and Carmelo Anthony! Wow, isn't that surprising!

You misreaded my post

But i know, it's about my not so good english

By far, english is my 3rd or 4th language that i use... I have to improve

And i'm trying

I know very well what you are trying to show us and I agree with your observation. I just wanted say that this guys in such situation were great, but right now two of them are out of the team. And the only thing that we have from this unit are this stats...

peace

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:55 pm**

NiGhtWiSh wrote:
Los Soles wrote:
NiGhtWiSh wrote:if only statistics could play bball... But they don't.

My post was about basketball. Strategy? Yes. Statistics? Hardly. Let me simplify some of the statistics for you, since you're having such a hard time:

Goran Dragic, Leandro Barbosa, Jared Dudley, Louis Amundson, and Channing Frye played good together. In fact, they played really good together! They played better than a lot of other groups--even groups that have some amazing players like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, and Carmelo Anthony! Wow, isn't that surprising!

You misreaded my post But i know, it's about my not so good english By far, english is my 3rd or 4th language that i use... I have to improve And i'm trying

I know very well what you are trying to show us and I agree with your observation. I just wanted say that this guys in such situation were great, but right now two of them are out of the team. And the only thing that we have from this unit are this stats...

peace

haha, sorry. :oops:

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:13 pm**

Yeah, I misinterperated the post as well. I wish I could speak four languages!

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:19 pm**

NiGhtWiSh wrote:I just wanted say that this guys in such situation were great, but right now two of them are out of the team. And the only thing that we have from this unit are this stats...

But the thing is, the style. The same strategy. It's so f*cking simple, so effective, and we NEVER do it anymore. Yeah, Lou and Barbosa fit well, but I don't think either player was absolutely essential (although I definitely miss Lou). We've been shockingly effective in the past with Dudley at the four, for example, and Barbosa? Really?? I mean...I like Barbosa...but really?

Again, the style; the strategy. 1) Nash. 2) Four-out with four 3-point shooters. For example:

Nash-Dragic-Dudley-Frye-Lopez
Nash-Pietrus-Dudley-Warrick-Frye
Nash-Dragic-Pietrus-Dudley-Gortat
Nash-Carter-Dudley-Childress-Frye

There are actually 30 different combinations that fit this strategy and make sense defensively (IMHO). None of those 30 theoretical units have had even 1% of the minutes.

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:57 pm**

Sun Scorched wrote:I hate Grant Hill.

Thanks for that, lol.

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:18 am**

Anyone else notice how we much we played FOUR-OUT WITH FOUR 3-POINT SHOOTERS against the Celtics???

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:20 am**

Los Soles wrote:Anyone else notice how we much we played FOUR-OUT WITH FOUR 3-POINT SHOOTERS against the Celtics???

I was legitimately PROUD of Alvin Gentry for playing Dragic limited minutes. This guy shouldn't be on the court very much. Solid rotations tonight.

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:12 pm**

Sun Scorched wrote:I hate Grant Hill.

Really?? How could you hate Grant Hill? Class guy, good player, tremendous story of coming back from injury . . . rather purdy :wink:

. . . you hate him? I mean, have you even met him?

You need to talk to someone about that; there are people trained to help you. Those feelings are truly inappropriate to the situation...is there some trauma in your life (involving an attractive man) that you need to deal with? Call somebody. There is hope.

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:29 pm**

Los Soles wrote:
Sun Scorched wrote:I hate Grant Hill.

Really?? How could you hate Grant Hill? Class guy, good player, tremendous story of coming back from injury . . . rather purdy . . . you hate him? I mean, have you even met him?

You need to talk to someone about that; there are people trained to help you. Those feelings are truly inappropriate to the situation...is there some trauma in your life (involving an attractive man) that you need to deal with? Call somebody. There is hope.

Call King of Wang. He'll help you.

King Of Wang wrote:i hope everyone on this team burns in hell besides nash, hill and dudley. **** this ****

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:38 pm**

So...we played Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters quite a bit against the Celtics--more than we have all season. I had to analyze it.

1st quarter -- 5 pt lead -- switch to Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters
15-6 run

3rd quarter -- 11 pt lead -- switch to Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters
10-4 run

4th quarter -- 11 pt lead -- switch to Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters
8-2 run

Grant total: 33-12

Net:
+21

Final margin of victory:
+17

Ergo, we were -4 the rest of the time.

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:33 pm**

Los Soles wrote:So...we played Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters

Could you describe this formation for the basketball terminology illiterate?

Also does that mean that Gortat (who, fluke buzzer 3 aside, should not count as a 3-point shooter) didn't contribute to that +/- ?

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:44 pm**

impulsenine wrote:
Los Soles wrote:So...we played Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters

Could you describe this formation for the basketball terminology illiterate?

Nash = Steve Nash is on the court

Four-out = Offensive setup. 1 dude who plays in the paint--Nash's main pick-and-roll partner--and four dudes parked around the perimeter: one in each corner, and one at about the free-throw-line extended to the perimeter (opposite Nash).

Four 3-point shooters = All four perimeter players can and do shoot three pointers when left open.

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:47 pm**

Does Gortat now qualify as one of the four?

Posted: **Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:14 pm**

impulsenine wrote:
Los Soles wrote:So...we played Nash + Four-out with four 3-point shooters

Also does that mean that Gortat (who, fluke buzzer 3 aside, should not count as a 3-point shooter) didn't contribute to that +/- ?

NO, he does count: Four-out, one-in. He's the one-in, the dude in the paint, Nash's pick-and-roll partner.

We played ALL of our four-out with four 3-point shooters minutes with Gortat in the paint...which is a HUGE reason why he was rolling. He was getting handed the ball six inches from the basket with nobody else within five feet. It was pick-your-poison for the Celtics: get rained on from three, let Nash destroy you, or let Gortat destroy you. They tried to trap Nash off the pick-and-roll...Nash found Gortat.

RealGM

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