Bench Hill/Carter

[Wannabe MEP]

Not because they're playing poorly. Because the second unit needs them.

Hill's recent 3-point shooting has quieted/eliminated my anti-Hill rant (I hope it stays that way), and while Carter has been a mixed bag, I think he's underrated. I believe he's very solid defensively. Like JRich, I think he might take a little time to adjust to this system before we really see what he's capable of bringing offensively.

But here's the thing. We have been a superb basketball team recently when we have Nash on the court, particularly when we have Nash + Frye. The numbers suggest that the other players don't make all that much of a difference: Gortat/Lopez/Warrick have all done well alongside Nash and Frye, as have a variety of swingmen combinations.

Meanwhile, we've been terrible when Nash is on the bench. The difference between how we play with and without Nash is unreal: 19.07 points per 100 possessions, highest in the league by far for any one player. There's one exception: the second unit has been pretty good, actually, when Carter plays with them. We haven't really tried Hill the same way much, or the results might be similar.

My argument is that if we move Carter, Hill, or both to the bench, the first unit won't lose much, and the second unit will improve dramatically. Think about the skillsets of each of our main swingmen: Hill, Carter, Dudley, and Pietrus. They are all very good defenders, they're all decent shooters, none of them are amazing slashers a la Marion/Childress (but they're all decent)...the big difference is that HILL AND CARTER CREATE THEIR OWN SHOTS...which doesn't really matter all that much when you play alongside Nash.

% Assisted (% of shots that are assisted):
Hill -- 64.3
Carter -- 62.2 (this number is actually much, much lower with other teams)
Dudley -- 78.9
Pietrus -- 80.0

Assist rate (percentage of possessions ending in an assist):
Nash -- 66.42
Dragic -- 32.13
Dowdell -- 39.14

Dudley and Pietrus naturally, automatically score off the pass.
Hill and Carter naturally, automatically score off the dribble.

Meanwhile, the difference in point guard play couldn't be more obvious.

[jlove_26]

Very well put. I hated the decision to put VC into the starting line-up from the beginning, especially after seeing the numbers and the condfidence that Dudley produced when he started those few games as the starting 2. VC can create his own shot, albeit to the detriment of the team at times, but that is one aspect we lost off the 2nd team when we dealt off LB, and thought VC should be that guy for the Suns 2nd team. The only flaw I see in your post, is that Hill has shown to be very ineffective when he comes off the bench compared to when he starts. He need the immediate burn after warmups to play his game. When he sits on the bench after warmups he doesn't get warmed up or in his groove till late in the game.

[WTFsunsFTW]

If we are looking to trade VC, we cant put him on the bench. Plus I think his ego would choke him out of the rotation completely if he were put in the 2nd unit. Yes, it's his own damn fault, but it is what it is.

[Hilltop]

Yeah, you guys should develop your young talent. Old geezers are holdin ya back eh? Orlando would gladly take Nash and Hill off your hands

[RunDogGun]

I made this suggestion weeks ago, and for the same reasons. I added Gortat and Warrick to the starting lineup because A) Warrick only plays well with Nash, and if we got him to be an Amare-lite, we need to run him with Nash B) I do like Frye with Lopez, and Gortat plays well with Nash. It gives Gentry a two lineup situation, which quite frankly after not having that, he has struggled with rotations. Then you close the game with whoever is playing the best.

[rsavaj]

I'm fine with VC on the bench, but Hill needs to start. He's just not effective when he's coming off the bench cold at his age...and that was like 2 years ago.

[Sun Scorched]

SO, just to be clear, these are the two lineups according to this concept:

PG - Nash
SG - Pietrus
SF - Dudley
PF - Warrick
C - Gortat

and

PG - Dragic
SG - Carter
SF - Hill
PF - Frye
C - Lopez

[Birth of the Cool]

If we are looking to trade VC, we cant put him on the bench. Plus I think his ego would choke him out of the rotation completely if he were put in the 2nd unit. Yes, it's his own damn fault, but it is what it is.

First off..pretty good post Los Soles. I agree that VC should definitely come off the bench. Post-Kidd Vince is pretty much most effective in isolation / post up / and pick and roll pays that he initiates. Nash plays beautifully with guys who cut and are active...post-NJ if the ball isn't in his hands Vince likes to get out the marshmallows & camp out in the woods (3 pt line).

I don't necessarily agree with putting Hill on the bench. He & Nash seem to have a really super connection on fast breaks and Hill's motor on fastbreaks compliments Nash perfectly. Also, defensively Gentry loves to use Hill on the best Swingman in the opposing starting lineup.

Now in regards to WTFsunsFTW comment about Vince's ego...on the court he doesn't have one...his whole NBA legacy has been him deferring. In his last days with the Raptors he suggested to the team to come off the bench as he was struggling and not meshing with Rafer Alston. In NJ, coming back from injury he was the one who suggested to Lawrence Frank to play him off the bench for however long. If Vince had an ego he would probably be a much more consistent, dangerous player but he's more of a as long as the team wins I don't mind my numbers looking like the reincarnation of Adam Morrison....

...but if Vince comes off the bench Gentry has to put the ball in his hands & force him to create for himself & others. If not, Vince would gladly accept Dowdell & Goran dominating the ball & sitting at the perimeter chucking up shots occasionally. It's sad but you have to push & prod him into action...let inertia takeover lol.

[impulsenine]

SG - Pietrus
SF - Dudley

Isn't it
SG - Dudley
SF - Pietrus

[Frank Lee]

If GHill was asked to move to and anchor the second unit, do you really think he would squawk ? Not if it meant W's. He'd figure out how to prepare.

In Grant We Trust.

Carter doesn't have to play as far as I am concerned.

[Cutter]

I agree that the Nash + Frye combo is effective in producing more scoring...especially for the Frye side of the equation. However this top Suns scoring combo includes a guy in the PF position (Frye) who is not starting caliber PF material from an all round game perspective. He's soft, not a banger and doesn't have an Alpha male attitude on the floor. He's a typical Sun....much too polite .

I would like to posit the idea (posted by a few others) of trying to see if Frye could play SF. I know I know... he's too tall and slow to guard the quicker 3's in the league. But with Gortat and Lopez, two fairly good defensive C's, playing behind him Frye might be able to do an adequate job defensively as a SF. This would allow us to get a stud PF, start our Polish stud at Center and retain the benefits of Frye and his ability to spread the floor and hit 3's. Plus we would have one of the biggest front courts in the league.

PG: Nash/Dowdell/Dragic
PF: Stud PF/Warrick
C: Gortat/Lopez
SF: Frye/Hill/Peaches
SG: Dudley/VC/Peaches

Deep Bench: Chilly (unfortunately), Siler

[Wannabe MEP]

Now in regards to WTFsunsFTW comment about Vince's ego...on the court he doesn't have one...his whole NBA legacy has been him deferring. In his last days with the Raptors he suggested to the team to come off the bench as he was struggling and not meshing with Rafer Alston. In NJ, coming back from injury he was the one who suggested to Lawrence Frank to play him off the bench for however long. If Vince had an ego he would probably be a much more consistent, dangerous player but he's more of a as long as the team wins I don't mind my numbers looking like the reincarnation of Adam Morrison....

...but if Vince comes off the bench Gentry has to put the ball in his hands & force him to create for himself & others. If not, Vince would gladly accept Dowdell & Goran dominating the ball & sitting at the perimeter chucking up shots occasionally. It's sad but you have to push & prod him into action...let inertia takeover lol.

Great insight.

Cutter:

About Hill coming off the bench: I've never believed the argument that he's too old. I've looked at the evidence: it doesn't exist. If you disagree, find it for me. If he can sit for long stretches of the game and for halftime, he can sit the first few minutes.

BUT, I'm OK with starting Hill if Carter comes off the bench. Ginobili, Odom, Mayo, Arenas... he wouldn't be the first starting caliber player to come off the bench in order to bolster the second unit.

[RunDogGun]

Gentry has been told to tank the season, so Sarver doesn't have to make any more changes and take on more salary. We won't be seeing Gentry making wise choices the rest of the year. Too bad we have a few guys that still want to win. I should have put most of this in green font, darn iPad!

[JasonDaPsycho]

Gentry has been told to tank the season, so Sarver doesn't have to make any more changes and take on more salary. We won't be seeing Gentry making wise choices the rest of the year. Too bad we have a few guys that still want to win. I should have put most of this in green font, darn iPad!

Nah he ain't ordered to tank the season.
Sarver would never allow that.

Yeah, you guys should develop your young talent. Old geezers are holdin ya back eh? Orlando would gladly take Nash and Hill off your hands

We'll throw in Channing Frye and Hakim Warrick as well. Send us another future 1st and a couple of not-too-scruby players and we'll call it a deal.

[hunterxaz]

Gentry has been told to tank the season, so Sarver doesn't have to make any more changes and take on more salary. We won't be seeing Gentry making wise choices the rest of the year. Too bad we have a few guys that still want to win. I should have put most of this in green font, darn iPad!

Uh, source?

[RunDogGun]

Gentry has been told to tank the season, so Sarver doesn't have to make any more changes and take on more salary. We won't be seeing Gentry making wise choices the rest of the year. Too bad we have a few guys that still want to win. I should have put most of this in green font, darn iPad!

Uh, source?

I said I should have put most of it in green font, but I couldn't last night. It just seems like he is trying to tank some games. Taking out hot hands, playing guys minutes, who don't belong on the court, and now this rotation that came a half a quarter too late? Sure seems like he is doing it on purpose, or he just sucks at coaching now.

[Hilltop]

Yeah, you guys should develop your young talent. Old geezers are holdin ya back eh? Orlando would gladly take Nash and Hill off your hands

We'll throw in Channing Frye and Hakim Warrick as well. Send us another future 1st and a couple of not-too-scruby players and we'll call it a deal.

Deal

[DRK]

Yeah, you guys should develop your young talent. Old geezers are holdin ya back eh? Orlando would gladly take Nash and Hill off your hands

We'll throw in Channing Frye and Hakim Warrick as well. Send us another future 1st and a couple of not-too-scruby players and we'll call it a deal.

Deal

He forgot to mention Orlando throws in Dwight Howard.

[Wannabe MEP]

With minimum 50 minutes, the Suns have 3 units with positive APM post-trade.
Nash, Steve - Hill, Grant - Dudley, Jared - Frye, Channing - Lopez, Robin 22.60
Nash, Steve - Carter, Vince - Hill, Grant - Frye, Channing - Lopez, Robin 10.13
Nash, Steve - Carter, Vince - Hill, Grant - Frye, Channing - Gortat, Marcin 7.82

Dropping the minimum to 25 minutes adds these units:
Dragic, Goran - Carter, Vince - Dudley, Jared - Warrick, Hakim - Gortat, Marcin 12.62
Dragic, Goran - Carter, Vince - Dudley, Jared - Frye, Channing - Gortat, Marcin 8.09
Nash, Steve - Carter, Vince - Dudley, Jared - Frye, Channing - Gortat, Marcin 1.01

Surprising keys:

1) Vince Carter 5/6
2) Channing Frye 5/6

Possible blueprint for this team:
1) Nash, Steve - Hill, Grant - Dudley, Jared - Frye, Channing - Lopez, Robin 22.60
2) Dragic, Goran - Carter, Vince - Dudley, Jared - Warrick, Hakim - Gortat, Marcin 12.62

1) Exactly the same as our current starters, except Dudley for Carter. Dudley has earned that, and it allows Carter to join the second unit.
2) Gives us a unit that has played well despite not including Nash or Frye.

The only issue is that this has Dudley playing all the time...mix in Pietrus or play Carter and Hill more and we're fine.

[DRK]

Another great post Los Soles. I've been advocating for Dudley be a starter for a long time. He brings better defence than Vince, and better defence. I don't think we will be missing much offence at all by replacing Vince with Dudley in the starting 5, because Vince's main role is jsut to knock down 3 pointers, which Dudley is more than capable of.

3 Point FG Stats


Dudley: ]37.9%; Made: 1.2; Attempted: 3.1

Vince: 38%; Made: 1.8; Attempted: 4.8


I also like the idea of our second unit including all three of the players which were involved in the trade ( (Vince, Pietrus, Gortat)). They would be more used to playing together, and would display better chemistry on the court.

Even though it would (hypothetically) improve our performance, by moving Vince to the bench and Dudley to the starting lineup, I just don't see it happening. Gentry doesn't have the balls to bench a (former) superstar, and I don't think Vince's ego would alow him to be benched either, even though he'll get a similar amount of playing time.