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It was not Vince Carter's 17-point, six-steal game that had Gentry building up the man that he had held out of fourth quarters in recent games.

Before the game, Gentry said, "The greatest thing to me is he's trying like crazy. He comes in early. He's worked at it. When you're a guy that's depended on your athletic ability, eventually somewhere along the line you're going to lose some of that. But from the effort he gives us and the leadership he gives us and the way he tries to help everybody, he's been good for our team.

"There'll be nights that he's going to look like the same old Vince. Even when he's not, just to have him out there . . . it helps us."

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vince is such an easy target to hate that it aint even funny.....there could be global warming and VC would be to blame for that

To be honest I wouldn't mind bringing him back on a make good deal - like what we gave to Frye - player option 2nd year basically. Get him healthy and even if he moves to the bench and we look to get a younger more defensive minded SG

If his head's on straight and he's actually healthy, he can still drop 20 on any night and sink clutch shots

I've been over here a few times, seen a few Suns games and the same 3 or 4 trolls here saying he's lazy, a team cancer and someone who doesn't care, are clearly wrong.

purplehaze89 wrote:I've been over here a few times, seen a few Suns games and the same 3 or 4 trolls here saying he's lazy, a team cancer and someone who doesn't care, are clearly wrong.

Well the Lazy part...that's not all together untrue. Last few games I've seen him start cutting more looking for open space and sometimes Steve see's him and sometimes not, but at least he's (Vince) being active looking to create scoring opportunities but even as a big VC fan there have been way too many games where he was passively camping around the perimeter not getting involved in the offense. It's quite infuriating. Hopefully the playoff push and gaining confidence (I know..for a 13 year Vet you'd think it would't be an issue...) will get him going.

The Team Cancer / Doesn't Care stuff is crazy I agree. Vince has never been a team cancer. When with the Raptors, vet players like Antonio Davis & Charles Oakley were begging/demanding Vince to be more selfish. In NJ he deferred to Devin Harris & Richard Jefferson and made guys like Devin & Brook look so much better (Devin All-Star, Brook Rookie of the year type season). In Orlando he deferred to a guy like Jameer, etc. He's always looking to help out the young guys and always talking to fellow vets (see him & Nash blab to each other constantly during games). He listens to Coach and plays defense the smart way even if he can't always physically do the job (doesn't cheat in passing lanes for steals, doesn't go for blocks constantly but looks for charges, rotates to right spots, comes in to box out bigs when his 4/5 comes out to challenge shots, etc). The only thing Coaches have ever said about Vince is they want him to play more aggressively (so do I....) but you'll never hear him go to media to complain about minutes, how he's being used, you'll never see him skip a practice, protest a coach, etc. (he did one really dumb thing - asked for a trade from Raps & he deserves flak for that).

In the locker room I have no doubt Vince is a positive influence, but he's not paid ungodly amounts of money to be a good locker room guy - Phoenix is a solid team as is with a sub par, inconsistent Vince. If Vince can find a way to CONSISTENTLY perform well (play solid defense, be a top 2 offensive threat on the team) then Phoenix goes from solid to dangerous and a team that can scare a top seed if they make the Playoffs.

Tastic, how does that work? If we give him an extension, he would get $18 million next year regardless. If we waive him, which will happen no matter where he goes, we can't sign him that year until he is waived by another team. We can trade him, wait until he is waived, and then sign him and put him on a similar deal to Frye. Which one do you mean?

Do not extend Vince, he's not worth keeping anymore. He's too old, and doesn't benefit our team in anyway next year. We can re-sign him and trade him at next years deadline, but it would really suck if we kept him. He'd stop the development of our very own Jared Dudley and I want him starting soom, very soon.

If his head's on straight and he's actually healthy, he can still drop 20 on any night and sink clutch shots

I doubt he can drop twenty next year though.

Before this gets out of control, he is signed through next year. The thing is his contract is only guaranteed for $4 million next year. So no matter where he ends up this year( summer) he WILL be waived! Plus if we extend him, or resign him, he will cost us $18 million next year, which is not going to happen. We can't resign him for any less next year, unless we trade him, and he gets waived by that team.

RunDogGun wrote:Tastic, how does that work? If we give him an extension, he would get $18 million next year regardless. If we waive him, which will happen no matter where he goes, we can't sign him that year until he is waived by another team. We can trade him, wait until he is waived, and then sign him and put him on a similar deal to Frye. Which one do you mean?

This is obviously the best case scenario. The fact that we can put in $3million with Vince and take back $1mil extra salary to make it worth for the team (his buyout is approx $4mil) and maybe get a stud at a position of need (PF/SG/SF) makes him very valuable to our team. I'm glad we didn't try to get rid of him at the deadline because expirings weren't very valuable this deadline. Let's wait and see how the rest of the season unfolds, maybe we pick up Murphy when he's bought out?

RunDogGun wrote:Before this gets out of control, he is signed through next year. The thing is his contract is only guaranteed for $4 million next year. So no matter where he ends up this year( summer) he WILL be waived! Plus if we extend him, or resign him, he will cost us $18 million next year, which is not going to happen. We can't resign him for any less next year, unless we trade him, and he gets waived by that team.

Why can't they just pay the $4 million to buy out his contract and then re-sign him to a mid-level (or less) contract for one or two years?

phxdude wrote:Do not extend Vince, he's not worth keeping anymore. He's too old, and doesn't benefit our team in anyway next year. We can re-sign him and trade him at next years deadline, but it would really suck if we kept him. He'd stop the development of our very own Jared Dudley and I want him starting soom, very soon.

If his head's on straight and he's actually healthy, he can still drop 20 on any night and sink clutch shots

I doubt he can drop twenty next year though.

depends how he uses the summer. Might start a true grant hill rehab. Hes always scored more then hill ( even in their primes). He might have the operation he required too. It will be an important summer for vc.

If we buy out and resign for a small vets contract and he becomes part of the rotation rather then a starter im all for him staying here. The guy has charisma as well and would be good for the whole team enviroment.

lets see how he does for the remainder of this season though before we entertain the thought.

as much as a i love duds and vc i dont know if the former is good enough to be a starter and the latter while at one point a superstar is winding down his career. i want a better starting SG next year. ESP if nash is gone.

i hope nash is never gone..

Mac1 wrote:as much as a i love duds and vc i dont know if the former is good enough to be a starter and the latter while at one point a superstar is winding down his career. i want a better starting SG next year. ESP if nash is gone.

i hope nash is never gone..

I have absolute confidence in Dudley's abilities as a starter. When Carter was out withg the injuries, Dudley did a superbe job as a starter for us. He scored well, rebounded well, and played excellent defence.

Fat_Borbath wrote:

RunDogGun wrote:Before this gets out of control, he is signed through next year. The thing is his contract is only guaranteed for $4 million next year. So no matter where he ends up this year( summer) he WILL be waived! Plus if we extend him, or resign him, he will cost us $18 million next year, which is not going to happen. We can't resign him for any less next year, unless we trade him, and he gets waived by that team.

Why can't they just pay the $4 million to buy out his contract and then re-sign him to a mid-level (or less) contract for one or two years?

Actually we would be waiving him to do the $4 million thing. I guess we could buy him out, but I don't know the rules of players bought out, and then resigning withthat same team within that year. If he plays very well down the stretch, I bet we buy him out for $5 million as good faith. Hopefully we don't, and just waive him, pay the $4 million (actually one, because we got three from ORL), and move on.

RunDogGun wrote:

Fat_Borbath wrote:

RunDogGun wrote:Before this gets out of control, he is signed through next year. The thing is his contract is only guaranteed for $4 million next year. So no matter where he ends up this year( summer) he WILL be waived! Plus if we extend him, or resign him, he will cost us $18 million next year, which is not going to happen. We can't resign him for any less next year, unless we trade him, and he gets waived by that team.

Why can't they just pay the $4 million to buy out his contract and then re-sign him to a mid-level (or less) contract for one or two years?

Actually we would be waiving him to do the $4 million thing. I guess we could buy him out, but I don't know the rules of players bought out, and then resigning withthat same team within that year. If he plays very well down the stretch, I bet we buy him out for $5 million as good faith. Hopefully we don't, and just waive him, pay the $4 million (actually one, because we got three from ORL), and move on.

The Heat bought out James Jones this summer, and then re-signed him. so it is allowed. but yes most definitely do not re-sign Carter. His seasons after signing a contract are always some of his worst.

[quote="now and 4 life]
The Heat bought out James Jones this summer, and then re-signed him. so it is allowed. but yes most definitely do not re-sign Carter. His seasons after signing a contract are always some of his worst.[/quote]

Cool, actually I guess they waived him, and later signed him.

General survey: would you guys rather have j-rich back at the same price, or have vince? To be honest,I think I would rather have Vince. His on he ball defense is better than J-rich, and he has the ability to createhis own shot. One thing Vince doesn't have though is the great three point shooting of J-rich, but he's not much worse.

Da_Reel_Kboy wrote:General survey: would you guys rather have j-rich back at the same price, or have vince? To be honest,I think I would rather have Vince. His on he ball defense is better than J-rich, and he has the ability to createhis own shot. One thing Vince doesn't have though is the great three point shooting of J-rich, but he's not much worse.

Career three point percentage:

Carter: 37.5%
Richardson: 37.2%

Carter is also shooting the three better with the Suns than Richardson is with the Magic:

Carter w/Suns: 38.1%
Richardson w/Magic: 36.8%


Anyways, to answer the question:

Suns record at time of J. Rich/Turk/Clark trade: 13-16
Suns record since VC's debut: 16-11


And yes, Pietrus and Gortat have played a part, but they're both bench players, and there's still been many games recently where almost all (in some cases all) of the bench players finish games - in the +/- category.

Suns record at time of J. Rich/Turk/Clark trade: 13-16
Suns record since Gortat's debut: 16-11

Fixed!

Speaking of D, is JRich actually that bad on D?
I check in on the Magic game threads and many of them harp on J"Bitc-h"'s lack of D and saying that he actually makes Vince look good on D.

Is there something up with JRich's knees that make his one-on-one D so poor? Or is it just from years of playing on a no D team?

As for Vince, I hope he can stay a Sun only because it seems the Suns training staff has done wonders for his knees. While on the Magic, it seemed like Vince had an injury every week or was at least writhing in pain on the floor.