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By triangle, I mean rotating three bigs who are solid defenders:

1) Bynum
2) Gasol
3) Odom

Those three get 95% of the playoff minutes at the 4 and 5. They can defend any frontcourt with some combination of those three. Combine that with a good defender at the three in either Artest or Ariza, and they can enforce their will defensively.

The Lakers won titles because their defense was superb, even when their offense was mediocre. With Nash, our offense is elite even this past year when we had no synergy.

We need a three-man defensive triangle in the frontcourt:

1) Gortat
2) Frye
3) ???

You must have a good defensive frontcourt to win a title.

The following is 4-year defensive RAPM, players who are worth at least +2.0 on the defensive end. I only included players that were at least 2.0 overall (I didn't want players who kill the offense at both ends).

-the left number is defensive impact per 100 possessions
-the right number is overall impact, offense and defense
-bold is players who have won championships
-red is players who could still win a championship this year

6.4---Garnett---7.5
4.5---Amir Johnson---5.1
4.2---Andrew Bogut---4.2
4.1---Josh Smith---4.3
4.0---Dwight Howard---7.6
3.9---Tim Duncan---5.3
3.8---Omer Asik---4.0
3.7---LeBron James---10.2
3.6---Chuck Hayes---3.2
3.6---Tony Allen---2.0
3.5---Ron Artest---3.5
3.4---Lamar Odom---4.9
3.4---Mbah a Moute---2.2
3.0---Yao Ming---3.9
3.0---Luol Deng---3.8
3.0---Gerald Wallace---3.5
3.0---Roy Hibbert---3.2
2.9---Marcus Camby---2.8
2.8---Nowitzki---7.8
2.8---Bosh---4.9
2.8---Nene---4.5
2.8---Eric Maynor---2.8
2.6---LaMarcus Aldridge---5.1
2.6---Ime Udoka---2.9
2.6---Tyson Chandler---2.6
2.6---Fesenko---2.0
2.5---Thaddeus Young---4.3
2.5---Paul Pierce---5.2
2.5---Kirilenko---3.7
2.5---Chris Andersen---2.5
2.4---Ekpe Udoh---3.6
2.3---Nick Collison---2.7
2.3---Andrew Bynum---2.2
2.2---Kyle Lowry---2.7
2.2---Rasheed Wallace---2.9
2.2---Jeff Foster---3.2
2.1---Paul Millsap---3.5
2.1---Ersan Ilyasova---3.4
2.1---Varejao---3.3
2.1---Kenyon Martin---2.1
2.1---Iguodala---2.0

Notice the massive frontcourt bias?? Notice how essential these players are if you want to have an elite team? NOTICE HOW AMARE (-0.9) IS NOT WHAT WE'RE LACKING?

"Three-fourths of the world is covered by water. The rest is covered by Chuck Hayes." - Shane Battier

Also--Great thread. A while back on the ESPN Message Board PhoenixZone03 made the point that Anderson Varejao was more important to LeBron's Cavs than Amar'e was to Nash's Suns...The list you presented essentially explains why.

God I hope the Suns can revisit that possible Lopez/Pietrus for Millsap trade that was supposedly being talked about at the deadline this year. That would be a nice pickup, but I doubt the Jazz have much interest in Lopez anymore.

I say we go after Nene and Iguodala. Both of them have high chances of leaving their team or being traded. Both of them are big, good defenders, and explosive offensive players which would go great alongside Nash.

Players that I would be willing to give up in order to get Iggy and Nene:
1) Carter
2) Pietrus
3) Lopez
4) Warrick
5) Dowdell
6) Siler
7) Lawal


We need go get rid of Carter for sure. I'm not sure if other teams are willing to take him, but if not, we can buy him out. Also, I say we should get rid of Pietris. He has a cheaper contract, and is more of an asset for other teams. Plus, he's not the smartest player around town. Lopez is a waste of height and shows no potential. Warrick can only dunk. Nothing else. The rest just waste cap space.

Best case scenario, the Suns would look like this:

Nash-Brooks
Iguodala-Dudley
Hill-Childress
Frye-Warrick
Nene-Gortat

This would balance our front-court defense and offense. All players at each position, with the exception of Brooks, Nash, and Warrick are excellent defenders. In the starting 5, each player would work great with Nash. Iggy looking for an alley-oop or jump shot, Hill running baseline, Frye camping out at the three point line, and Nene running the pick-n-roll with Nash. Nene has great hands, is a good setter, and can finish explosively around the basket. On defense, everyone in the starting 5 is excellent except Nash, who is still pretty good at getting charges. Off the bench, you have Dudley and Brooks who are very capable 3 point shooters, while Childress is an excellent slasher and Warrick can dunk. Gortat would be our post threat. They are all still good defenders.

sunsfan3 wrote:I say we go after Nene and Iguodala.

Best case scenario, the Suns would look like this:

Nash-Brooks
Iguodala-Dudley
Hill-Childress
Frye-Warrick
Nene-Gortat

Yeah, I'm a fan. Nene was my first choice pre-Gortat.

Now that we have Gortat...I'm really leaning toward an athletic power forward, like Josh Smith at the dream-level, or Lou more realistically. Again the Lakers triangle:

Start--Gasol, Bynum
Then--Odom, Gasol
and--Odom, Bynum

Start--Frye, Gortat
Then--???, Frye
and--???, Gortat

??? is an Odom-type defensively, somebody who can guard the most athletic power forwards.

This is one of those threads that I really like reading but can't contribute to meaningfully.

Please continue

TheMoochinator wrote:God I hope the Suns can revisit that possible Lopez/Pietrus for Millsap trade that was supposedly being talked about at the deadline this year. That would be a nice pickup, but I doubt the Jazz have much interest in Lopez anymore.

Dear god please tell me these were only rumors!!

Anyone have an eye on memphis's boys? Namely gasol and gay. They're likely to keep both but I think we should make a run after one of them. Hows Rudy's defense? I hear he's pretty underrated on that end. I know he's not "big" per-se, but he is athletic. I'd take him over iguodala(call me crazy).b

A few key guys this summer that could really improve our team, could end up on different teams: Iguodala, Gay and Josh Smith.

You must have AN ELITE defensive frontcourt to win a title.

Celtics '08--Defensive Rating: 1st in NBA
6.4---Garnett
3.6---Tony Allen
2.5---Paul Pierce
1.1---Leon Powe
1.0---Kendrick Perkins
0.9---Glen Davis
0.8---James Posey

Lakers '09--Defensive Rating: 6th in NBA; 2nd in Playoffs
3.4---Lamar Odom
2.3---Andrew Bynum
1.6---Trevor Ariza
1.5---Pau Gasol
1.4---Luke Walton

Lakers '10--Defensive Rating: 4th in NBA
3.5---Ron Artest
3.4---Lamar Odom
2.3---Andrew Bynum
1.5---Pau Gasol
1.4---Luke Walton

Rise of the Bulls?--Defensive Rating: 1st in NBA
3.8---Omer Asik
3.0---Luol Deng
2.6---Kurt Thomas
1.9---Ronnie Brewer
1.8---Joakim Noah
1.6---Taj Gibson

Sign Earl Clark. Sign Lou Amundson. Trade Hakim Warrick + Second Round Pick for Chris Anderson. Trade Robin Lopez, Mickael Pietrus, 13th Pick for Paul Millsap.
Nash/Brooks/Dowdell
Dudley/Childress
Hill/Clark
Millsap/Amundson
Gortat/Frye/Anderson

That's a defensive team with a balanced offensive attack. A ton of slashers, tall wing players, and a five man rotation for the PF/C position (maybe even 6 if you want to run Clark at the 4 against certain players). Come playoff time that team should be able to rebound, play hard defense, and still be able to run up and down the court. No egos, and a good mixture of young and experienced players.

Yeah undersized Paul Millsap at PF and a relatively shot center at the 5 will make us a great defensive team.

Frye isn't exactly known for his post defense either.

Okay, stop with this Earl Clark nonsense already. Hes gone. He wont be coming back. He was not a good pick. Suns had to cut their losses, as they should immediately with Robin Lopez.

What you need is a solid go-to big (someone who can get you a bucket when needed) complemented by at least 2 other defensive bigs who are capable of masking any shortcomings the primary big may have.

Pau is an average defender but he can score. Bynum is a good defensive complement and Odom is a great 3rd rotation big.

KG was a solid go-to guy for many years, Perk and Big baby weren't bad either.

Dallas has Dirk, yet another franchise big (who's not great defensively) but Chandler and Hayward/ Marion can all be counted on.

Memphis has ZBo, Atlanta has Horford, Chi has Boozer, Miami has Bosh. To call any of these guys average defenders is very generous, but they all have defensive complements (except for Miami perhaps but when you have Wade and Bron things are a bit different).

Bottom line is, you can't rely solely on defensive guys or you'll have no offense outside of jacking threes when it comes to the clutch.

Ironically, I think Amare would work great next to Gortat, as even though Amare has the defensive IQ of a peanut, he has been quite the weak side shot blocker when used correctly. Gortat could body up the big and gobble up the rebounds which Amare clearly can not.

Nash/ Dragic
VC/ Dudley
Hill/ Pietrus
Amare/ Frye/ Lawal
Gortat/ Frye/ Siler

Ah, it's free to dream..

I don't like the idea of neglecting offense in the front court. I just can't see how a starting front line of Dudley/Frye/Lou-type player could get it done. Even with Nash orchestrating the whole thing, it's still difficult to get easy buckets without a guy who can create his own high percentage buckets down low. Without that guy who can create inside, you're only option is hoping Nash can get in the lanes and find someone open down low. Now that is fine if it's early in the game and you're mixing up perimeter shots with Nash inside penetration, but when we need a bucket in the clutch, we're almost always going to be looking at a perimeter 3.

With Amare, we always had an option for high percentage buckets from either him getting to the line or him getting the And1. This season all we had was perimeter guys mixed in with an offensively below-average Gortat, who looked decent from Nash's wizardry. How many times this season did we see Nash trying to get inside only to have defenders stick on him because Gortat doesn't draw the double team?

Like nevetsov pointed out, a guy like Gortat, who can defend, rebound and hustle next to Amare would've been sufficient. Especially if you put another defensive guy at the 3 like Dudley, Hill or JChill. We never won with Amare but Amare never had an athletic legit big next to him either. I totally agree with what nevetsov has said.

Los Soles, I'm with you about the defensive front court, but I think you're "system" relies way too much on Nash getting into the lanes to create high percentage shots. All that defense is great but we still need a guy who can get it done down low.

lilfishi22 wrote:I don't like the idea of neglecting offense in the front court.

I agree that I don't want to neglect offense...the point is instead to prioritize defense in the frontcourt.

1) you must have an elite defensive frontcourt
2) you must score efficiently

#1 only happens one way. #2 happens all kinds of different ways. The thing is, Nash + good athletes + good spacing = the best offense in history. Yes, we need offense out of our bigs, but I don't think that has to come out of post-ups or isos. Pick-and-roll basketball with good spacing is as efficient as you can be, and for that, Nash + an athletic power forward + Frye for spacing is PERFECT.

That athletic power forward doesn't have to be Amare offensively. Amare was like a 9/10 on offense and a 4/10 on defense. I'd MUCH rather have a 6/10 on offense and a 9/10 on defense. Especially next to Frye and Nash.

lilfishi22 wrote:I just can't see how a starting front line of Dudley/Frye/Lou-type player could get it done. Even with Nash orchestrating the whole thing, it's still difficult to get easy buckets without a guy who can create his own high percentage buckets down low.

Thing is, that exact front line DID get it done. Even WITHOUT Nash. When you go with Lou instead of Amare, you certainly lose something on offense, but you gain something on defense. The numbers say that Lou was actually more valuable than Amare for the 2009-2010 Suns.

With Frye spacing the court, a raw offensive guy like Lou still wreaks havoc in the paint with offensive rebounds and PICK-AND-ROLLS.

I'd prefer a guy who's great offensively and great defensively, a la LaMarcus Aldridge or Kevin Garnett. Since I know we can't get that guy, my choice is great defensively and good/decent offensively, rather than vice-versa. Eight days a week.

Great post Los Soles but this talk of a defensive oriented Suns team is sacreligious in this fading SSOL era . I have long advocated a more defensive oriented (but still good offensively) team and it's been a while since the Suns have been know for defnse.

A possible realistic PF could be Luc Mbah a Moute. Young, an absolute defensive gem but only socred 6.7 ppg in 26 min on a very bad offensive Bucks team. However the Nash magic could turn him into someone exactly as described; good offensively (say 10 - 14 ppg) but great defensively.

nevetsov wrote:What you need is a solid go-to big (someone who can get you a bucket when needed) complemented by at least 2 other defensive bigs who are capable of masking any shortcomings the primary big may have.

Who was the go-to big on...

1989 NBA Champion Pistons
1990 NBA Champion Pistons
1991 NBA Champion Bulls
1992 NBA Champion Bulls
1993 NBA Champion Bulls
1996 NBA Champion Bulls
1997 NBA Champion Bulls
1998 NBA Champion Bulls
2004 NBA Champion Pistons

???

Here's a more realistic situation.

Trade Lopez, Childress, and draft pick for Paul Millsap.
Trade Warrick for cash or draft pick
Buyout Vince Carter
Trade Siler, Dowdell, Lawal for cash/picks somehow.

Sign Nene.

Nash-Brooks
Dudley-?
Hill-Pietrus
Gortat-Millsap
Nene-Frye

Los Soles wrote:

nevetsov wrote:What you need is a solid go-to big (someone who can get you a bucket when needed) complemented by at least 2 other defensive bigs who are capable of masking any shortcomings the primary big may have.

Who was the go-to big on...

1989 NBA Champion Pistons
1990 NBA Champion Pistons
1991 NBA Champion Bulls
1992 NBA Champion Bulls
1993 NBA Champion Bulls
1996 NBA Champion Bulls
1997 NBA Champion Bulls
1998 NBA Champion Bulls
2004 NBA Champion Pistons

???

Ok, when you have a guy called Michael Jordan, the greatest player of all time, on your team, you can be afforded a little bit of leeway.

2004 Pistons had a guy called Rasheed Wallace, who I believe was one of 4 all stars and a guy who could certainly score the ball, complemented by arguably the best defensive complement you could hope for.

Considering you could only find those two core teams in over twenty years of basketball as examples against my point, I think there's certainly merit in my proposal.

sunsfan3 wrote:Here's a more realistic situation.

Trade Lopez, Childress, and draft pick for Paul Millsap.

I read that bit... Hoping that you were actually telling the truth.





Turns out I was wrong.