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Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:32 am
by Nando88
http://arizonasports.com/category/suns- ... ordinator/

The Phoenix Suns talk about defense like politicians talk about fixing the budget: lip service is paid, but generally nothing gets done to actually address the problem.

Neither is an easy fix, due to a multitude of reasons, but at least the Suns may be taking a step -- albeit a small one -- in the right direction. The fallout from Mike Brown replacing Phil Jackson with the Lakers has begun, and according to the LA Times:

It was unclear if any of Jackson's former assistants would be retained, though Chuck Person has the best chance among a group including Shaw, Frank Hamblen and Jim Cleamons. Cleamons probably will interview with the Phoenix Suns to become that team's defensive coordinator, an NBA executive said Wednesday.


A defensive coordinator, what a novel idea. In fact, this isn't the first time the Suns have considered the possibility.

Back in 2007 the Suns found themselves looking for a new assistant. Tom Thibodeau's name was brought up, as the former Rockets coach was looking for a new home. The Suns, great on offense but a sieve on defense, seemed like a natural fit. Thibodeau was interested in the job. Mike D'Antoni and the Suns, however, were not interested in him, and hired Jay Humphries instead.

Thibodeau went to Boston to help the Celtics, who only became the best defensive team in the NBA under his watch. The Celtics went to a pair of NBA Finals, winning one, before Thibodeau left to become head coach of the Chicago Bulls. He won Coach of the Year in his first year at the helm.

Oops.

Hiring Cleamons, who was an assistant under Jackson with the Bulls and Lakers, would be a solid move. While he won't be able to turn players like Steve Nash, Hakim Warrick, Robin Lopez and Aaron Brooks into great defenders, his experience assisting on championship teams gives him a perspective that really couldn't hurt to have around.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:46 am
by DirtyDez
That rules out Jimmer!

:clap:

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:56 am
by TASTIC
^Also Nash

;)

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:16 am
by BurningHeart
That's cool, I guess.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:21 am
by TASTIC
It's all for nothing unless we get some defensive players

Even though I don't like him and he's crazy overpaid, I don't see why Childress can't be our stopped off the bench. I'll assume we take the cheap route with Carter and he's gone, which means Dudley's the likely starter at SG, so we solid at 2/3/5 with Duds/Hill/Gortart...but with Nash and Frye there's 2 weak spots playing 70mins give or take

Backup PG Brooks hardly plays D...ugh if we get Cleamons in that role he's going to pull what little hair he has out...And I think if he's brought in he'll be first in line if Gentry faulters, which is a shame - Majerle I'd like as next in line

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:24 am
by Nando88
lol this team is not buildt to play defense as long as steve nash is here. lol watch them bring in defensive specialist Terry Porter as an assistant coach, cuz you know how well that worked the first time when the suns tried to be a denfensive juggarnaut :)

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:01 am
by Wannabe MEP
Nando88 wrote:lol this team is not buildt to play defense as long as steve nash is here.

The problem has never been Nash. The problem with the Suns defense has always been the lack of a solid defensive frontcourt. We are one athletic power forward away from playing very good defense.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:09 am
by JohnVancouver
Los Soles wrote:
Nando88 wrote:lol this team is not buildt to play defense as long as steve nash is here.

The problem has never been Nash. The problem with the Suns defense has always been the lack of a solid defensive frontcourt. We are one athletic power forward away from playing very good defense.


which is why I've been thinking more and more about Singleton

Hill/Pietrus/Gortat/Chilly/Frye/Lawal if healthy/Duds - all good to very good defenders. Siler we don;t know about but he ought to be decent, just with his size and being quicker than anyone would expect

did I leave anyone out?

But I do believe we don;t draft anyone who can't play D or won't -

and I keep saying, play Chilly at the 3 - Marion-style

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:18 am
by TheMan44
so......i posted this question in another thread as well, but whoever answers I guess:

Question: Who do u think is better defender? Pietrus or Childress

Or, in other words, who would u rather have at that main backup 2/3 position off the bench? Pietrus or Childress? You know one of them will get less time than the other - and u know one of them MAY get traded.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:31 am
by rsavaj
TheMan44 wrote:so......i posted this question in another thread as well, but whoever answers I guess:

Question: Who do u think is better defender? Pietrus or Childress

Or, in other words, who would u rather have at that main backup 2/3 position off the bench? Pietrus or Childress? You know one of them will get less time than the other - and u know one of them MAY get traded.


I always thought it would be Chilly but he did not impress me at all defensively this year. In the midst of being a complete idiot, Pietrus does manage to play some energetic, hard-nosed defense.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:03 am
by Frank Lee
I like our 'swingboys'. I think they all should get 20 minutes + .

May be we draft the 'BDA' ?

A guy like Singleton cant hurt you and will not be a bust. Same goes for Farried. Bird in the hand, Money in the Bank.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:13 am
by YFZblu
TASTIC wrote: with Nash and Frye there's 2 weak spots playing 70mins give or take


1. The Suns outplay their opponents when Nash is on the court. That can only be a good thing, regardless of how the Suns want to play.

2. Frye isn't a weak link defensively

Per 100 possessions, the Suns opponents PPG:

Nash on the court: 110.4
Nash off the court: 112.7

Frye on the court: 110.3
Frye off the court: 113.0

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:33 am
by BurningHeart
Believe it or not, I think the team needs offense more than defense. We already have many defenders. Pietrus, Dudley, Childress, Hil, Gortat, and Frye are all prettay good defenders. We have big-time holes in our offense. If our offense is firing on all cylinders, a "passable" defense headed by those 5, 6 guys is enough.



We need to get to a situation where its; "I trust my guys to make their shots more than I trust your guys to, and now that I have a guy (Gortat) to rebound your misses, there's no way you're beating us."

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:42 am
by nevetsov
Agree with BH, I reckon our most pressing need right now is a guy who can create his own offense and consequently create opportunities for others. Preferably a big.

The only guy who can do this on the team right now is Nash. Possibly Hill and maybe Brooks.

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 2:21 pm
by DRK
Look, last season, our bench unit played some of the best defence in the league; not to mention that that unit was amazingly efficient on offence. We as the Suns, KNOW the formula of how to play good defence while playing goof offence. Why dont we try to emulate the 2010 Suns bench but putting similar-styled players on the court together? (As our second unit)

Current Bench/2010 Suns Bench

Dowdell = Dragic
Barbosa = Brooks
Pietrus/Dudley = Dudley
Lawal = Lou
Frye = Frye

Look. We still have 2 of the players from the original "Suns Bench" from last year, and IMO, Brooks is a better version of Barbosa, Dowdell seems to be able to run an offence well. Frye and Dudley, has much improved since, Pietrus and Dudley have similar playing styles, and a healthy Lawal is pretty much Lou with better offence.

I hoestly cannot see why, with the pices we have right now, our bench can become that extremely good defensive lineup again?

Although... even though we could make our bench atleast passable again, we still have problems in our starting lineup. Right now, our strating lineup is:

Nash
Dudley
Hill
????
Gortat

Can Warrick be relied upon as our starting PF? Would Gortat's defence and rebounding be good enough to cover Warrick's lack of defence and rebounding? It will be interesting to see.....

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:53 pm
by rsavaj
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9vqPYXeaU0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:34 pm
by Ruhiel
BurningHeart wrote:That's cool, I guess.

lol at your nonchalance and avatar :D :D

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:07 pm
by JohnVancouver
DRK wrote:Look, last season, our bench unit played some of the best defence in the league; not to mention that that unit was amazingly efficient on offence. We as the Suns, KNOW the formula of how to play good defence while playing goof offence. Why dont we try to emulate the 2010 Suns bench but putting similar-styled players on the court together? (As our second unit)

---- Excellent plan. But it's hard to recreate chemistry - who would have though losing Lou Amundson would be such a blow?

Current Bench/2010 Suns Bench

Dowdell = Dragic ----- Nope. He's a solid bench guard but not a Ginobli-lite, which Dragic was at his best
Barbosa = Brooks ---- Ehhhhhh. Okay, but small small small to play the 2. Move Pietrus here, or Duds. The other plays the SF

Lawal = Lou ----- Yup, and we draft one of Singleton, Faried, etc.
Frye = Frye ------ Yes

Look. We still have 2 of the players from the original "Suns Bench" from last year, and IMO, Brooks is a better version of Barbosa, Dowdell seems to be able to run an offence well. Frye and Dudley, has much improved since, Pietrus and Dudley have similar playing styles, and a healthy Lawal is pretty much Lou with better offence.

---- That's a fine Bench Mob but as you point out next ......


.... even though we could make our bench atleast passable again, we still have problems in our starting lineup. Right now, our strating lineup is:

Nash
Dudley
Hill
????
Gortat

Can Warrick be relied upon as our starting PF? Would Gortat's defence and rebounding be good enough to cover Warrick's lack of defence and rebounding? It will be interesting to see.....


The answer to both those questions is, no - which is too bad. Maybe this defensive coordinator coach can teach Hak some fundamentals. He has the physical skills to be an effective one on one and team defender, but then again, so does almost everyone in the league bar Steve Nash.

Here's my lineups -

Bench Mob

Dowdell/Janning
Duds/Janning (kid is an excellent shooter and passer. Great IQ and court vision, really hope he sticks this year, and he may well do because we need bodies cheap). Duds did great as a starter last year but I really think what he adds off the bench is even more valuable. We may not have the luxury of it though
Hill - yeah, I know why not but I think right now the why outweighs it. Grant leads the second string and sets the tone. He's the grizzled sergeant leading the young GIs - Lee Marvin in The Big Red One
Lawal - I was crushed when he went down. A serious Dirt Worker and a more athletic Lou, better offense as stated. Takes defense and rebounding personally
Frye - with his improvements defensively and adding post moves and off the dribble, Frye can be a monster here. He and Duds are two guys who lived up top their new contracts, which is a nice thing to see because it so rarely happens

Starters

Nash
Pietrus (or Duds, I'm open to it. He doesn't have MPs athleticism but he's amore reliable shooter and I'm looking forward to seeing his reported new muscles and offensive additions. He's one guy who truly adds something every year )
Chilly - let's review: very good defender, slasher, rebounder at both ends, putbacks, ugly shot ..... sounds like ..........
????? -
Gortat


This is our four out/one in lineup with four decent to very good defenders. The missing pice is the PF who needs to be an excellent rebounder and defender, athletic enough to capitalize on Nash in the pick and roll. Finding one who fits that description isn't easy but teaching one to shoot an outside shot isn't the hardest thing in the world. Certainly not as hard as teaching Amar'e to box out, say.

My belief is - if you have a guy who devotes effort to defense and boards, you've got a guy who is okay with working. That means he's teachable. Teachers, we got.

That leaves Brooks and Hak, and Siler on the bench. Sign and trade Brooks - likely have to eat Hak's paycheque and keep him. For a while. He can be useful in an SSOL type format. Let's hope he works on finishing this summer - too many blown shots at the rim. Or send him out for whatever we can get. I used to be a fan but he cured me of it, much like Matt Barnes did

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:31 pm
by TheMan44
JohnVancouver wrote:The answer to both those questions is, no - which is too bad. Maybe this defensive coordinator coach can teach Hak some fundamentals. He has the physical skills to be an effective one on one and team defender, but then again, so does almost everyone in the league bar Steve Nash.

Here's my lineups -

Bench Mob

Dowdell/Janning
Duds/Janning (kid is an excellent shooter and passer. Great IQ and court vision, really hope he sticks this year, and he may well do because we need bodies cheap). Duds did great as a starter last year but I really think what he adds off the bench is even more valuable. We may not have the luxury of it though
Hill - yeah, I know why not but I think right now the why outweighs it. Grant leads the second string and sets the tone. He's the grizzled sergeant leading the young GIs - Lee Marvin in The Big Red One
Lawal - I was crushed when he went down. A serious Dirt Worker and a more athletic Lou, better offense as stated. Takes defense and rebounding personally
Frye - with his improvements defensively and adding post moves and off the dribble, Frye can be a monster here. He and Duds are two guys who lived up top their new contracts, which is a nice thing to see because it so rarely happens

Starters

Nash
Pietrus (or Duds, I'm open to it. He doesn't have MPs athleticism but he's amore reliable shooter and I'm looking forward to seeing his reported new muscles and offensive additions. He's one guy who truly adds something every year )
Chilly - let's review: very good defender, slasher, rebounder at both ends, putbacks, ugly shot ..... sounds like ..........
????? -
Gortat


This is our four out/one in lineup with four decent to very good defenders. The missing pice is the PF who needs to be an excellent rebounder and defender, athletic enough to capitalize on Nash in the pick and roll. Finding one who fits that description isn't easy but teaching one to shoot an outside shot isn't the hardest thing in the world. Certainly not as hard as teaching Amar'e to box out, say.

My belief is - if you have a guy who devotes effort to defense and boards, you've got a guy who is okay with working. That means he's teachable. Teachers, we got.

That leaves Brooks and Hak, and Siler on the bench. Sign and trade Brooks - likely have to eat Hak's paycheque and keep him. For a while. He can be useful in an SSOL type format. Let's hope he works on finishing this summer - too many blown shots at the rim. Or send him out for whatever we can get. I used to be a fan but he cured me of it, much like Matt Barnes did


Simple solution to your missing starting power forward need --> Assuming new CBA allows a multi-player sign-n-trade with Brooks and 2 other players, Suns pull off the following trade while signing free agent Michael Redd and drafting Faried/big-man:

*Lopez/Pietrus/Brooks --for-- DJ Augustine, Tyrus Thomas
*Sign free agent SG Michael Redd to affordable, veteran deal
*Draft either Biyombo or Faried

Nash, Augustine, Dowdell
Dudley, Redd, Dowdell
Hill, Childress
Tyrus, Hakim, Faried
Gortat, Frye, Lawal/Siler

Re: Suns getting SERIOUS about defense

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:14 pm
by RunDogGun
Good thoughts John. But I don't think Lawal is on the level of Lou, at least not yet. He got so little time on the floor that it is almost impossible to see the comparison. We all hope he can turn into that type of hustle player. I really wish Warrick can turn into a better defender. He wasn't so bad when we ran him at the top of the zone.