RealGM

Any guesses??

(Any NBA team, minimum 100 minutes together in the playoffs.)

No idea, but I loved the idea of Nash-Raja-Marion-(Amare or prime Diaw)- Kurt, even though they never really had the chance to play playoff basketball together.

That is one hell of a team.

i dont even want to think about the Past.

Once we lost Amare we lost our future.

AMARE with GORTAT would of been a dream!

Whatever it is that +/- or some other random statistic will say, the real best Playoff Unit of the past 5 years is a healthy Perkins/Garnett/Pierce/Ray Ray/Rondo lineup.

Beas4pres wrote:Once we lost Amare we lost our future.

Oh how dramatic.

Beas4pres wrote:i dont even want to think about the Past.

Beas4pres wrote:AMARE with GORTAT would of been a dream!

Yeah, none of this "past" bologna...just fantasy land instead.

b-ball forever wrote:Whatever it is that +/- or some other random statistic will say, the real best Playoff Unit of the past 5 years is . . .

I love this. PREEMPTIVE STRIKE!!! Now I don't have to engage with that which might be complex because...

MY OPINION AUTOMATICALLY TRUMPS ANY ANALYSIS YOU CAN THROW AT ME!! YEAH!!!!

b-ball forever wrote:the real best Playoff Unit of the past 5 years is a healthy Perkins/Garnett/Pierce/Ray Ray/Rondo lineup.

Pretty damn good lineup, if you ask me. You coulda just put that lineup and called it good.

So this is the "Overall Rating" from all the units from 2007-2011 with at least a +10 rating for a minimum of 100 minutes in the playoffs. Overall Rating is Offensive Rating - Defensive Rating, each of which is just points per 100 possessions. Basically, this is a pretty straightforward measure; no obscure mathematical trickery.

34.87
23.81
21.08
20.38
20.37
17.24
15.52
15.14
13.44
12.55
12.45
11.82
10.96
10.62
10.31
10.12

All of these units are very, very good. You don't need to be blasting teams by 20 to win a championship. You just have to be a little better than the opponent. So anything positive is really very good itself: we're talking playoff basketball.

So that 34.87...that's CRAZY. Statistically absurd. And it really can't possibly be a fluke, because it's playoff basketball for > 100 minutes (162.77 in this case).

Any thoughts who that might be? Since there hasn't been a team that destroyed everyone all the way to a title, it has to be from a team that played significantly worse with some of their other units, but somehow had (at least) one particular group that just clicked.

Come on, some more guesses. Surely you can at least take a shot at key players for units from the top five on that list.

Ill play along and take a few swipes.

1. Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley, Frye, Lou (2010)
2. Nelson/Alston, Lee, Hedo, Lewis, Dwight (2009)
3. Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan, Elson (2007)

DRK wrote:1. Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley, Frye, Lou (2010)

Great guess! They get honorable mention: they'd come in at 7th with 15.66, but they were just under the 100 minute limit at 96.62.

DRK wrote:2. Nelson/Alston, Lee, Hedo, Lewis, Dwight (2009)

See, I would have guessed there would be a Magic unit top five, but nope. The Magic have never really had a go-to unit because they've never had a go-to facilitator (Jameer? Alston? Turk? Carter?)--a major reason why they don't have a title.

DRK wrote:3. Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan, Elson (2007)

Gotta think there's a Parker-Manu-Duncan crew in there somewhere, but no. The 2007 Spurs won with depth; they slowly strangled teams by never playing a bad lineup.

I would like to take a few guesses but does anyone have a link to somewhere that shows all teams' 5-man units for each year? My memory isn't quite good enough and I wanna give this some thought. Also just to make sure, this starts with the 2006-2007 playoffs right?

Miklo wrote:I would like to take a few guesses but does anyone have a link to somewhere that shows all teams' 5-man units for each year? My memory isn't quite good enough and I wanna give this some thought.

Yes, but that would give it away...

Here's the best alternative I can think of: http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/ is a good place to start. Shows champions and runner-up teams. Then you can click on the team and scroll down to the "Playoff" section. It doesn't show units, but it does show each player's minutes, so you can get a pretty good idea what units the team played if you know positions well enough.

Miklo wrote:Also just to make sure, this starts with the 2006-2007 playoffs right?

Yep.

Hmmm, well going by Finals teams I'd guess this year's Mavs would be up there? Kidd-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Chandler?

Non finals super random guess is the 08 Pistons with Billups/Rip/Tayshaun/Sheed/Dyess?

Well since this is Los asking, I am going to go with his fav 4 out one in and say Nash, JRich, Dudley, Frye, and Lou also from 2010.

Unless you are saying only teams in the finals?

If it is any playoff team, I am still going to say it is a lineup from the Suns 2010 playoffs. If not the one I mentioned then something like Nash, Dudley, Hill, Lou and Frye, or sub out Lou and put in Amare. It is just tough to include Amare with his terrible showing on both the defensive end, and rebounding that post season.

Also, looking at that team, can you believe we went as far as we did starting Collins at center for ten out of those sixteen games? He averaged 1.1 points, and 1.5 rebounds. That has to be the worst starting playoff center numbers from a team that went to the conference finals. We should have just started Dwyane Jones.

Ehh I'll try again:

1. Ellis, Jackson, Harrington, Richardson, Davis. (Golden State Warriors 2007)
2. Nash, J-Rich, Hill, Amare, Lopez (Phoenix Suns, 2010)
3. Arenas, Stevenson, Butler, Jamison, Haywood (Washinton Wizards 2007)

RunDogGun wrote:Well since this is Los asking, I am going to go with his fav 4 out one in...

haha, good call

RunDogGun wrote:Well since this is Los asking, I am going to go with his fav 4 out one in and say Nash, JRich, Dudley, Frye, and Lou also from 2010.

woulda been beautiful. sadly, didn't happen. Lou didn't get many minutes period, and then when he did, they were very rarely with Nash.

And you're right, Amare units were just never good enough defensively to be up there. There are some unreal offensive units from that Suns team, though, if we decided to just look at those...

(this is crazy: our top two offensive units from that season, at unreal offensive ratings of 153.85 and 152.70, both have Dudley at the four.)

Miklo wrote:Hmmm, well going by Finals teams I'd guess this year's Mavs would be up there? Kidd-Terry-Marion-Dirk-Chandler?

Ding-ding-ding, we have a winner!! There's a reason why that guy is an authority around here...

34.87 . . 2011 Mavs: Kidd, Terry, Marion, Nowitzki, Chandler . . 125.57 . . 90.70
23.81 . . 2011 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Jermaine . . . 115.13 . . . 91.32
21.08 . . 2011 Heat: Chalmers, Wade, LeBron, Bosh, JoelAnthony . . 118.95 . . 97.87
20.38 . . 2008 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Maxiell, Rasheed . . . 118.96 . . . 98.58
20.37 . . 2011 Mavs: Barea, Terry, Peja, Dirk, Haywood . . . 137.04 . . . 116.67
17.24 . . 2009 Cavs: Mo, Delonte, LeBron, Varejao, Ilgauskas . . . 119.55 . . . 102.31
15.52 . . 2008 Hornets: Paul, Peja, MoPeterson, West, Chandler . . . 115.52 . . . 100.00
15.14 . . 2007 Nets: Kidd, VC, RJefferson, MikkiMoore, JasonCollins . . 109.57 . . 94.43
13.44 . . 2007 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Rasheed, Webber . . . 115.61 . . . 102.17
12.55 . . 2009 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Ariza, Odom, Gasol . . . 115.13 . . . 102.58
12.45 . . 2009 Nuggets: Billups, Dahntay, Carmelo, Kenyon, Nene . . 114.88 . . 102.43
11.82 . . 2008 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Radmanovic, Odom, Gasol . . . 110.06 . . . 98.24
10.96 . . 2010 Lakers: Fish, Kobe, Artest, Odom, Gasol . . . 120.90 . . . 109.94
10.62 . . 2010 Magic: Jameer, VC, Barnes, Rashard, Dwight . . . 116.39 . . 105.77
10.31 . . 2007 Pistons: Billups, Rip, Prince, Rasheed, McDyess . . . 100.52 . . 90.22
10.12 . . 2008 Celtics: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Perkins . . . 106.08 . . . 95.96

The numbers for that Mavs crew are just ridiculous. They absolutely beat the sh*t out of Miami (offensive rating: 130.51, defensive rating: 92.44), most of the time against all three of the stooges.

Remember those crazy comebacks the Mavs had? Terry didn't start, so they would fall behind at first with their starters. Then they'd rotate through until this crew would finally all be in, and they'd begin methodically taking scalps.

They outscored Chalmers-Wade-LeBron-Bosh-Haslem 56-30. Not a chance you weigh those two lineups against each other and bet on a blowout for the Mavs. Unless, of course you believe like I do: that four-out with four 3-point shooters, a solid defensive frontcourt, and a kick@$$ pick-and-roll is simply the best way to play basketball)

It's safe to say you can't base it just on that, but I do agree a 4-out, 1-in system is very good. Not to say that you MUST have 4 great 3 point shooters, your big can very well be someone like Bosh who has range to just below the 3 point line because it still works just fine. You just need to be able to space the floor and have great ball movement, something the Heat lacked very much. Wade or Lebron would hold the ball for half the shot clock each trip down.. not a great recipe for success against an elite defensive squad like the Mavs. Where they really got hurt was not having a true center...

Los Soles wrote:

b-ball forever wrote:the real best Playoff Unit of the past 5 years is a healthy Perkins/Garnett/Pierce/Ray Ray/Rondo lineup.

Pretty damn good lineup, if you ask me. You coulda just put that lineup and called it good.

I coulda just put the lineup and called it good if I wanted to, but I obviously didn't want to since it wouldn't have been as fun.

Los Soles wrote:

b-ball forever wrote:Whatever it is that +/- or some other random statistic will say, the real best Playoff Unit of the past 5 years is . . .

I love this. PREEMPTIVE STRIKE!!! Now I don't have to engage with that which might be complex because...

MY OPINION AUTOMATICALLY TRUMPS ANY ANALYSIS YOU CAN THROW AT ME!! YEAH!!!!

Nah, nothing complex whatsoever.
You're asking 2 very different questions. One is "what is the best playoff unit of the past 5 years", and the other is "which 5 man unit has the best difference of offensive rating minus defensive rating over only 100 minutes".

Offensive rating is the points said unit produced per 100 possessions while on the court, while defensive rating is the points allowed per 100 possessions while said unit was on the court, and like every statistical measure out there, the rating has several flaws.

Even if that rating system was law and order in defining pecking order of basketball play, the minimum sample size is too small since 100 mins equals only 3 games of starter minutes, which is a grand total of half of a single average playoff series. An important player whose team makes the finals plays 8 times as many mins as that in 1 playoffs’ run.

The rating itself doesn’t take into account a ton of things that sway the numbers in comparison to actual basketball value, which falsifies rankings. Is said unit locking down CP3/Belinelli/Ariza/West/Okafor, or Jack/Willie Green/Pondexter/Jason Smith/Gray? Are they beating up on Noah/Boozer/Deng/Bogans/D-Rose, or is it Collison/Paul George/Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert? Are any of the opposing players playing injured or sick over the stretch? Did anybody in the unit bang the wife of another player in said unit over the stretch? (looking atcha Vanessa). The quality of the opposition and ability to matchup with the other team while said unit is on the court is a major factor that doesn’t show up in the numbers.


Why am I taking Rondo/Allen/Pierce/KG/Perkins? Because together they’re easily the most devastating combo over the past 5 years.
At PG they’ve got the best defensive PG in the league who can stay in front of the many speed demons of the league and play the passing lanes, and on the offensive end produce high quality playmaking along with slashing. At SG they’ve the best shooter in NBA history, who also has good handles and solid passing, and is deadly both set and off the dribble. At SF they’ve got a do-it all (and at a high level) swingman can slash, post-up, pass, handle the rock, defend various types of players, and shoot. At PF they’ve the most complete 4-spot player ever, who is among the best at his position at PnR, PnP, posting-up, knocking down mid-range J’s, passing, defending the PnR, switching out onto swingmen defensively, guarding the post, rebounding, and anchoring a defense. At C they’ve an elite post defender who is mobile enuf to switch onto PFs as well, makes opposing players think twice before attacting the rim via intimidation, is a good rebounder, and doesn’t disrupt his teammates' offensive games, while himself not being an offensive liability a la Ben Wallace.

That unit can run literally every single play in the book at a very high level, both offensively and defensively, as well as create mismatches. The balance is perfect. Ray, Pierce, and KG are all among the best shooters at their positions and can space for Rondo. Rondo covers for Allen’s lack of abilty to stay in front of quick guards. Pierce can guard the physical swingmen of the league, and post-up on the weaker ones. Everybody besides Perkins plays offense at a high enuf level to cover for him offensively.

20 years from now, that Boston team will be remembered as a team that won one championship, but nobody will remember how good the team actually was.
2008 playoffs = championship.
The next season the team is doing great, and then bang, down goes Kevin Garnett. They still make the eastern conf finals without their best player, but can’t go farther then that without him. Los Angeles eventually takes home the c-ship, with Kobe winning his first ring as a number 1 option.
Fast-forward to the next years’ 2010 NBA finals : Garnett is back, and Boston is back in the finals. Celtics are up 3-2 and just need one more win to sing Na Na Na Na Hey Hey Goodbye to the Lakers once again…but in game 6 Perkins blows his knee, Garnett can’t handle all of Pau, Odom, and Bynum by himself, and Los Angeles manages to come back and win the series.

Keep that Boston unit healthy over that stretch, and instead we’d be looking at a Boston 3 peat, meaning that the way many players and certain teams are viewed changes quite a bit. Kobe without Shaq = Zero championships, and Garnett could very well be considered the best PF ever.


Anyways, all that to say that I dunno who your 5 man unit is, but unless it’s also a healthy Rondo/Allen/Pierce/KG/Perkins lineup, I’d put a lot of money on my unit over your’s in a real basketball game, take your bucks, and wouldn’t be worried one bit over the outcome.

do you have the ranking for the Suns over the past 5 years?

Calvin Klein wrote:do you have the ranking for the Suns over the past 5 years?

I created that list from this website: http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?team=PHX&year=2010-2011

I think it would be pretty interesting to compile the same kind of list for the Suns.
1) Minimum minutes threshold?
2) Just regular season, just playoffs, or include units from both?