Our Quickness Problem

[Wannabe MEP]

The Nash Formula:
Nash + Shooting + Quickness = Incredible Offense. (If that combo has enough defense, it can win a title.)

2009-2010
Nash-JRich-Hill-Amare-Lopez
Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye

That defense was too weak. Now the defense has upgraded, but...

Nash-Dudley-Hill-Frye-Gortat
Price-Brown-Chilly-Markieff-Lopez

Now we still have pretty good shooting. We still have Nash, who I believe can still play at a very high level. Our defense is greatly improved. But we have almost no quickness. The starting unit certainly does not have anyone who is quick for his position. Guys like Frye and Dudley were incredibly valuable for us when they were playing next to quickness, but now their value has plummeted. Thing is, they don't have to be next to superstars: Barbosa and Lou were lightning quick, but unspectacular at pretty much everything else.

Possible Remedies:
1) Start Shannon Brown.
We have to take full advantage of the quickness that we do have. Shannon has already been very positive for us, although somewhat erratic. I think he'll settle down more and more as he gets familiar with the system and with his teammates. I also think that playing with Nash will maximize his slashing ability and make his efficiency skyrocket. I would prefer to start him in Hill's slot for reasons I've spelled out numerous times, perhaps the most important of which is that Hill would be a helpful facilitator and stabilizing force for the second unit. But I would be ok with Shannon taking Dudley's spot as well: we have to have him out there. And he's gotta play at least 30 minutes.

2) Trade Lopez or Gortat for quickness.
I really think we need a quick 4. A quick 4 is absolutely critical for us to play our 2-3 zone, and it maximizes Frye. A quick 4 plus Shannon Brown really might be enough to get our offensive spark back. We won't be as overwhelming offensively as that 2009-2010 team, but we'll be good enough, and the defense will be much, much improved.

3) Move Frye back to the 5.
Frye is so much more effective at the 5, because he's too slow to be a 4 in our uptempo system. This works in combo with #2: We've gotta find Lou 2.0. Preferably a Lou/Amare hybrid, but something's gotta give: we can't land Amare on offense and KG on defense because that player doesn't exist, and if he does, we can't acquire him. But there are several 4s that would be much more valuable in our system than in a more traditional one, and there are several teams long on forwards and short on quality centers.

[Sundamental]

Best solution. Pray.

[BurningHeart]

Good post.

Won't trade Gortat to acquire quickness since the hole created in defense and rebounding is not worth it.

Lopez needs to prove himself before he's worthy of getting anybody who can help us.

[Kerrsed]

Oops, my bad, i thought this thread was about my sexual performance.

[7Insomniac]

Makeup on a pig. The best this team can do is get the 8th seed. Then what? We're just delaying the inevitable right now because Nash and Hill are on the team. I really wonder what the front office is going to do if we continue to lose, they keep saying that we'll keep trying for the playoffs as long as Nash is here, but right now we look like the worst team in the NBA. We just got annihilated by a fringe playoff team in the east, what makes you think that we could even contend for the playoffs in the much tougher WC? It needs to get blown up, we have zero young talent besides Morris and Dudley, and our only trade chips are Nash, Hill, Gortat and Lopez. We need young talent and athleticism BADLY. Just take a look at every other team in the league. The Suns are the last team that I'd want in 3 years with our current roster.

[BurningHeart]

How exactly is Nash and Hill being here "delaying the inevitable"?

We're not DELAYING the rebuild. This IS the rebuild. It has BEEN the rebuild. The 2010 WCF? That was a RESULT of rebuild. Then we decided to rebuild again.

Again I say, to all who want to "blow it up". Who are you going to trade Nash and Hill to? If you're going to trade them, are they going to fit in with their new team? Do these contenders have room for Nash and Hill? If so, who? And if they have room for them, do they play a style that maximizes their abilities and do they have health/training staff in place to help their bodies? If so, do these teams have the assets to acquire these players? If so, who?

Nash and Hill have had ample opportunity to leave. To act disruptive. To act like all the other spoiled, arrogant primadonna **** that have infested the leagues. But they havent. I know that the general NBA population is used to observing douchebags like Paul, Howard, LeBron, etc, but these guys aren't like that no matter how many Suns fans wish it to be so. No matter how badly they want to fulfill their sick, delusional, utopian fantasies.

They've kept coming back. And they'll act like consummate professionals. That's why we like 'em, anyway.

[thamadkant]

Sarver and FO have mentioned as long as Steve and Grant are on the Suns they feel the need to stay competitive enough as respect for them 2.

In a sense, having Nash and Hill is indeed kinda going the half-as slow rebuild route... like a party where the host is ready to go to bed but there are still some people who don't want to leave and the host, as respect and out of politeness, leave out the food and alcohol and the mess until the lasts guests leave.

[Revived]

Oops, my bad, i thought this thread was about my sexual performance.

There's no solution to that problem yet.

[Revived]

Our "quickness" problem revolves around Nash losing his quickness. That's why need to get a guy like Darren Collison or something and let Nash groom him.

[Wannabe MEP]

Our "quickness" problem revolves around Nash losing his quickness. That's why need to get a guy like Darren Collison or something and let Nash groom him.

I totally disagree. He's never blown by people. He's always used his shooting, craftiness, and good pick-and-rolls to find seams.

He always has slashers that are quick for their position; that's a major part of why we played small-ball. Marion is pretty quick as a 3, but he's REALLY quick as a 4. Amare's quick as a 4, but he's lightning quick as a 5. The enormous problem with that is there's a danger of giving up too much defensively. Marion could hold his own, but Amare couldn't as a 4, much less as a 5.

But this is where Frye comes in. He gives us the unique ability to play small-ball without actually getting small. He can guard the 5 but play on the perimeter so that our lone paint dweller is a quick 4 that's functioning as a 5. We're not giving up anything defensively, and we have spacing and a quickness advantage. This is really awkward for defenses. Obviously this is going to work with Nash and Amare, but here's the thing...this is truly unique. It worked WITHOUT Nash or Amare in 2010 when we had: _____ + _____ + Dudley + Lou+ Frye.

Our most used units with Frye at the 5 during the 2010 playoffs, along with overall rating (listed by playing time; minimum 15 minutes):
Nash - JRich - Hill - Stat - Frye +4.67
Dragic - Barbosa - Dudley - Amundson - Frye +15.66
Nash - JRich - Dudley - Stat - Frye +11.96
Dragic - Barbosa - Dudley - Stat - Frye +17.02
Dragic - Barbosa - Hill - Dudley - Frye +27.92

When we move Frye to the 4, we become normal. Slow, actually.

[GrantHill]

LS, great posts. One question: How you you utilize Michael Redd in this system? Do you think he should get time with Nash, since his defense is bad?

[Frank Lee]

Makeup on a pig. ......

You gotta a problem with bacon ? Bacon is good.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T_obaO46Bo[/youtube]

Point taken though

Perhaps this is better....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA_Tl1kvlQU&feature=related[/youtube]

[JohnVancouver]

Nice - any way we can get Hak to be that guy? Leaping ability, quick, has a jumper though not from deep range, improved defense ... silk purse/sow's ear, i know but he's what we've got

who in the league meets the description?

and does utah really want Lou?

[Revived]

Our "quickness" problem revolves around Nash losing his quickness. That's why need to get a guy like Darren Collison or something and let Nash groom him.

I totally disagree. He's never blown by people. He's always used his shooting, craftiness, and good pick-and-rolls to find seams.

He always has slashers that are quick for their position; that's a major part of why we played small-ball. Marion is pretty quick as a 3, but he's REALLY quick as a 4. Amare's quick as a 4, but he's lightning quick as a 5. The enormous problem with that is there's a danger of giving up too much defensively. Marion could hold his own, but Amare couldn't as a 4, much less as a 5.

But this is where Frye comes in. He gives us the unique ability to play small-ball without actually getting small. He can guard the 5 but play on the perimeter so that our lone paint dweller is a quick 4 that's functioning as a 5. We're not giving up anything defensively, and we have spacing and a quickness advantage. This is really awkward for defenses. Obviously this is going to work with Nash and Amare, but here's the thing...this is truly unique. It worked WITHOUT Nash or Amare in 2010 when we had: _____ + _____ + Dudley + Lou+ Frye.

Our most used units with Frye at the 5 during the 2010 playoffs, along with overall rating (listed by playing time; minimum 15 minutes):
Nash - JRich - Hill - Stat - Frye +4.67
Dragic - Barbosa - Dudley - Amundson - Frye +15.66
Nash - JRich - Dudley - Stat - Frye +11.96
Dragic - Barbosa - Dudley - Stat - Frye +17.02
Dragic - Barbosa - Hill - Dudley - Frye +27.92

When we move Frye to the 4, we become normal. Slow, actually.

Yea but the thing is our offense revolves around fastbreak opportunitires and Nash brining the ball up court at a fast pace before the defenses are set.


If you watched yesterday, but the time Nash even looked up court the defense for the Sixers was already set. That has to do with Nash losing his legs and I agree Nash was never as fast as Westbrook or anything but his quickness was always underrated.

[_Nashoholic_]

Haven't really considered that. Good post.

[nevetsov]

Nice - any way we can get Hak to be that guy? Leaping ability, quick, has a jumper though not from deep range, improved defense ... silk purse/sow's ear, i know but he's what we've got

I actually made a post about that last night towards the end of game thread.

I think starting Hak at the 3 would be very interesting.

1) Injection of energy and athleticism into the starting lineup
2) legitimate pick and roll option with Nash
3) puts pressure on the middle which frees up Duds and Frye on the perimeter
4) playing zone at the start would prevent Nash and Hak (our worst man defenders) from being exploited early and it would force the opposition to beat us from the perimeter without getting into a rhythm
5) Hak, Frye and Gortat is a big frontcourt defensively
6) allows grant's knee to heal

[TheMan44]

1) Start Shannon Brown.
2) Trade Lopez or Gortat for quickness.
3) Move Frye back to the 5.

1. I've said it before that if Shannon starts, he may actually help his cause and play better. Him and Redd ought to be the shooting guards, not Dudley.

2. As somebody mentioned, trading Gortat for quickness puts gap in defense. Defense is more important than speed. We learned that in the D'Antoni days.

3. Again, great point. Briefly mentioned this few weeks ago, but yes, Channing should be a center not a forward (and Dudley should be a forward not a guard). A nice player who fits the bill and is a free-agent is Andre AK47 Kirilenko. He has amazing speed, length, and is one of the top shot-blockers.

I'd unload Siler and pickup Kirilenko on a 1-year (preferably 2 year) lease.

C Gortat - Frye - Lopez
F AK47 - Morris - Hakim
F Hill - Dudley
G Brown - Redd - Chill
G Nash - Price - Telfair

[sunskerr]

We just need to be more athletic and I think if we start Brown and run up and down it gives us that.

[Wannabe MEP]

Hak is confusing to me. I definitely originally pictured him playing the four next to Frye because of how well that works offensively, but he's just so pathetic on defense. Even this past game when he got all the press because of his production, he actually posted a -3 for the game.

I think we have to use him--we need his offensive spark. But I would still have him as like 11th man at this point in time. I'd use him primarily as the four when we need his quickness next to Frye to spark us offensively, and then I'd go 2-3 zone.

I frickin' miss Lou.

[JohnVancouver]

Well, then - what does Indy need? I dont; think Sweet Lou is a big part of their plan -

Lopez for Amundson and Pendergraph? I think JP is undervalued but I don;t know how he's recovered form his injury - Lopez seems a lot to give up and they would have Foster, Lopes and Hibbert at the 5. But with Lou they have three now -

would they take a second round for Lou?