Why Grant Hill Doesn't Fit

[Wannabe MEP]

Old news to many, but here it is nonetheless: The full fruition of my Grant Hill hate on from-ashes. (It's not really hate--I just think he's a poor fit.)

My solution? Replace with Gerald Wallace this off-season.

[Sun Scorched]

Well reason and well argued.

You know where I stand on the issue, so I won't beat a dead horse, but let me say this simply:

Grant is a great leader on a great contract with very high BBIQ, efficient scoring, above average defense, and he's continued to re-sign with PHX when he didn't have to - and we were better for it.

At the end of the day, Grant may not work well in your desired system - but he is in no possible way the only reason (as it seems you would have us believe) that the Suns struggle.

I'll do you one better. We suck, and always have sucked, at rebounding. Also, someone other than Nash or Hill need to create shots (hint: Brown isn't the answer). Fix those two things, and you're in a much better position than if you spent all off season worrying about Grant Hill.

[LBCsun49]

here is the thing Sun Scorched. Grant Hill is a Leader yes he is (take a coaching position) He has high BBALL IQ yes he does.

He is old and broke and we could have youth. We need to let him go

[GrantHill]

He is old and broke

I think he earned enough money in Detroit and Orlando.

I completely agree with Sun Scorched. Hill (just like Gentry) is our least problem at this moment and with him we wouldn't have lost against Memphis.

[LBCsun49]

broke as in broken as in broke down as in needs rehab after every game and needs to spend half the day in the training room

[Jdiddy701]

Are you guys really hating on Grant? He's our 2nd important player. You guys are ridiculous.

[theo001]

this is bulls h i t.
What are giving GForce us what aren't giving Hill?

If Allen sign with us, Hill will be perfect fit, because guards duet Nash-RayRay will be the best 3p shooters in the league. Grant with his very good perimeter defence and great mid-range is really excellent fit.

[Revived]

I would rather have Hill starting at SF than Dudley to be honest. At least Grant can play elite defense.

[Kerrsed]

I would rather have Hill starting at SF than Dudley to be honest. At least Grant can play elite defense.

Its not Elite, just the best we have on the team.

You dont call someone an Elite Mathematician just because they are at the top of their class at a Down Syndrome School.

[bwgood77]

I've mentioned that I thought Gerald Wallace would be someone to look into (but of course he needs to opt out of $11.4M next year, and it is a big stretch he will, though if DWill leaves, it is likely more probable.)

I also hope we don't keep Grant Hill next year if we have Nash (unless he plays a back up role and leads a second unit at a reduced price) because I like the floor spacing better with more shooters.

First option is that I would go for Eric Gordon and move Dudley to the 3. If NO matches, then I would look at other things.

I'm unsure what Nash's true feelings on Grant are. He wants the FO to upgrade the roster, but if we sign both Nash and Hill to deals similar to what they are making, that doesn't leave us with a ton of options to do much massive upgrading. He has to understand that.

After reading your analysis and that nice chart you made, Los Soles, I wonder if they should possibly go after Budinger, who would probably be a third the price of Wallace, and obviously much younger.

[Revived]

I would rather have Hill starting at SF than Dudley to be honest. At least Grant can play elite defense.

Its not Elite, just the best we have on the team.

You dont call someone an Elite Mathematician just because they are at the top of their class at a Down Syndrome School.

I disagree. He's a top 8 perimeter defender.

Numbers don't lie:

Andre Miller -

Grant Hill has owned Andre Miller ever since Game 2 of last year's Western Conference playoff series against the Trailblazers. It was Alvin Gentry that made the switch and assigned Hill to cover Miller after Miller torched the Suns for 31 points in a Game 1 victory. Miller quietly faded into the background as Hill's size and length kept him from penetrating as he had in Game 1, he struggled shooting the ball and couldn't find space against the then 37-year-old defender.

This year, the story is the same. In three meetings Grant held Miller to under his season average numbers for a few vital offensive statistics. In their first two matchups - Grant allowed Miller to only score 10 points in those contests, and limited his FGA's to well under his average mark all while forcing three turnovers from Miller as well in each game.

Derrick Rose -

The Suns have seen the Chicago Bulls and Derrick Rose only one time so far this year. It was a game where Derrick Rose put up 35 points while being guarded by Grant Hill, but he also played season high 50:19 minutes.

Despite having 35 points Rose was defended well by Hill as it took him 33 shot attempts to hit that number. He was held to 14-33 (.424) shooting and was just 1-5 from three. Oh yeah ,Hill put in 27 points of his own on 12-20 shooting.

Kevin Durant -

Kevin Durant is the pinnacle and definition of ‘elite scoring' in the NBA and we've seen Grant hold his own twice now this season against him and he dropped 30 points and 11 rebounds on KD's head too.

That was in their first meeting on December 19, 2010 Kevin Durant logged 43 minutes and put in 28 points but on an 8-19 (.421) shooting night where he nailed only 1-6 from three-point range. Playing man-to-man Grant was limiting Durant in his driving options and also did a terrific job denying Durant the ball early in the Thunder's offense all game long. But when the team switched from a man defense to a zone defense in the 4th quarter, Durant went off for 10 points.

Their second meeting on February 4 was yet another impressive defensive effort by Grant Hill. In this game Durant was 8-16, he did not take as many shots as he usually does and it was because of Hill's ball denial and aggressiveness on defense.

We'll see Hill take on Durant two more times this year and trust me, when you start to look for Grant Hill's defense as you're watching, it's very easy to find.

Monta Ellis -

Monta Ellis is the League's third leading scorer at the moment and three times we've seen Monta play against the Suns this year. In the first meeting, the Suns played predominately a zone defense and Monta Ellis went off for 38 points picking apart the defense and driving to the basket at will. But in the next two meeting it was a very different story.

The second time around Grant was given the assignment to guard Ellis and was extremely effective. Ellis jacked up 17 shots and only hit five, he still ended up scoring 21 points thanks to 13 trips to the line. For the game Ellis shot a very poor 29% from the field and visibly struggled to isolate and drive on Grant. Was it just an off shooting night for Monta? Maybe, because in Ellis' very next game, a win against the Denver Nuggets he drained a whopping 16-30 (.533) for 37 points and looked unstoppable.

But then what would explain the fact that the Warriors game after that was again against the Phoenix Suns and again it was Grant Hill on Monta Ellis. Ellis finished the game with just eight points on 4-13 (.308).

Blake Griffin:

When the Suns played the Clippers in December, Griffin had just 9 pts in the 2nd half when Hill started guarding him as prior to the 1st half when Blake put up 19 pts. Not to mention Hill was overmatched with Griffin's size.

In the chart below we see details of Hill's key defensive match-ups this season. Only LeBron James got the better of Grant.



http://arizona.sbnation.com/phoenix-sun ... st-players

Then this season he hasn't been much of a drop off either.

Golden State's Monta Ellis, barring an improbable game-winner, struggles more against Hill than any player who guards him. Washington's Nick Young had his second-worst shooting game of the season with Hill defending him. Atlanta's Joe Johnson made 8 of 23 shots in two games against Hill this season. The Los Angeles Clippers' Chris Paul rarely looks more passive than he did in facing Hill on Friday night.
Tonight, Hill will guard Sacramento point guard Tyreke Evans, who had arguably the worst shooting game of his career three weeks ago, when Evans scored four points (13 below his average) and made 1 of 9 shots.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/ar ... z1rhHjZkFi

[Kerrsed]

I would rather have Hill starting at SF than Dudley to be honest. At least Grant can play elite defense.

Its not Elite, just the best we have on the team.

You dont call someone an Elite Mathematician just because they are at the top of their class at a Down Syndrome School.

I disagree. He's a top 8 perimeter defender.

Numbers don't lie:

Andre Miller -

Grant Hill has owned Andre Miller ever since Game 2 of last year's Western Conference playoff series against the Trailblazers. It was Alvin Gentry that made the switch and assigned Hill to cover Miller after Miller torched the Suns for 31 points in a Game 1 victory. Miller quietly faded into the background as Hill's size and length kept him from penetrating as he had in Game 1, he struggled shooting the ball and couldn't find space against the then 37-year-old defender.

This year, the story is the same. In three meetings Grant held Miller to under his season average numbers for a few vital offensive statistics. In their first two matchups - Grant allowed Miller to only score 10 points in those contests, and limited his FGA's to well under his average mark all while forcing three turnovers from Miller as well in each game.

Derrick Rose -

The Suns have seen the Chicago Bulls and Derrick Rose only one time so far this year. It was a game where Derrick Rose put up 35 points while being guarded by Grant Hill, but he also played season high 50:19 minutes.

Despite having 35 points Rose was defended well by Hill as it took him 33 shot attempts to hit that number. He was held to 14-33 (.424) shooting and was just 1-5 from three. Oh yeah ,Hill put in 27 points of his own on 12-20 shooting.

Kevin Durant -

Kevin Durant is the pinnacle and definition of ‘elite scoring' in the NBA and we've seen Grant hold his own twice now this season against him and he dropped 30 points and 11 rebounds on KD's head too.

That was in their first meeting on December 19, 2010 Kevin Durant logged 43 minutes and put in 28 points but on an 8-19 (.421) shooting night where he nailed only 1-6 from three-point range. Playing man-to-man Grant was limiting Durant in his driving options and also did a terrific job denying Durant the ball early in the Thunder's offense all game long. But when the team switched from a man defense to a zone defense in the 4th quarter, Durant went off for 10 points.

Their second meeting on February 4 was yet another impressive defensive effort by Grant Hill. In this game Durant was 8-16, he did not take as many shots as he usually does and it was because of Hill's ball denial and aggressiveness on defense.

We'll see Hill take on Durant two more times this year and trust me, when you start to look for Grant Hill's defense as you're watching, it's very easy to find.

Monta Ellis -

Monta Ellis is the League's third leading scorer at the moment and three times we've seen Monta play against the Suns this year. In the first meeting, the Suns played predominately a zone defense and Monta Ellis went off for 38 points picking apart the defense and driving to the basket at will. But in the next two meeting it was a very different story.

The second time around Grant was given the assignment to guard Ellis and was extremely effective. Ellis jacked up 17 shots and only hit five, he still ended up scoring 21 points thanks to 13 trips to the line. For the game Ellis shot a very poor 29% from the field and visibly struggled to isolate and drive on Grant. Was it just an off shooting night for Monta? Maybe, because in Ellis' very next game, a win against the Denver Nuggets he drained a whopping 16-30 (.533) for 37 points and looked unstoppable.

But then what would explain the fact that the Warriors game after that was again against the Phoenix Suns and again it was Grant Hill on Monta Ellis. Ellis finished the game with just eight points on 4-13 (.308).

Blake Griffin:

When the Suns played the Clippers in December, Griffin had just 9 pts in the 2nd half when Hill started guarding him as prior to the 1st half when Blake put up 19 pts. Not to mention Hill was overmatched with Griffin's size.

In the chart below we see details of Hill's key defensive match-ups this season. Only LeBron James got the better of Grant.



http://arizona.sbnation.com/phoenix-sun ... st-players

Then this season he hasn't been much of a drop off either.

Golden State's Monta Ellis, barring an improbable game-winner, struggles more against Hill than any player who guards him. Washington's Nick Young had his second-worst shooting game of the season with Hill defending him. Atlanta's Joe Johnson made 8 of 23 shots in two games against Hill this season. The Los Angeles Clippers' Chris Paul rarely looks more passive than he did in facing Hill on Friday night.
Tonight, Hill will guard Sacramento point guard Tyreke Evans, who had arguably the worst shooting game of his career three weeks ago, when Evans scored four points (13 below his average) and made 1 of 9 shots.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/ar ... z1rhHjZkFi

So you post articles explaining how good he is at guarding PG's who are way smaller than him? Andre Miller? Monte Ellis? Derek Rose? Joe Johnson? Nick Young? CP3? Tyreke Evans? I would hope he could guard them, as he is a good 4 to 6 inches taller. It also shows that Nash cant do crap defensive wise, and why we need Hill to cover them and cover Nash's defensive liability.

Does Hill make the All NBA defensive team? Nope. The 2nd team? Nope, not there even. As i said before, he is our best defender, but not a elite defender.

[Revived]

So if your taller, that means you automatically can guard smaller players?

Hmm..Jared Dudley is taller than those PGs yet I don't remember him having success against them. Hakim Warrick is also a lot taller than those players yet I'm sure that those players would break Warrick's ankles on every play.

I'm also sure that a guy like 'Melo probably couldn't guard those players you mentioned the way Hill can.

And if you honestly think that the All NBA Defensive Team is what decides what players are good defensively and what players aren't, then I don't know what to tell you. Almost always its the players who get hyped up the most and on the best teams in the NBA that get those recognitions.

Kobe always being on those All NBA Defensive Teams speaks volumes about what a joke it is!

[Kerrsed]

And if you honestly think that the All NBA Defensive Team is what decides what players are good defensively and what players aren't, then I don't know what to tell you. Almost always its the players who get hyped up the most and on the best teams in the NBA that get those recognitions.

Kobe always being on those All NBA Defensive Teams speaks volumes about what a joke it is!

No, but it decides what players are good defensively and what players are "Elite".

And i dont know WTF you are talking about, Kobe is a great defender. He is elite.

[Revived]

And if you honestly think that the All NBA Defensive Team is what decides what players are good defensively and what players aren't, then I don't know what to tell you. Almost always its the players who get hyped up the most and on the best teams in the NBA that get those recognitions.

Kobe always being on those All NBA Defensive Teams speaks volumes about what a joke it is!

No, but it decides what players are good defensively and what players are "Elite".

And i dont know WTF you are talking about, Kobe is a great defender. He is elite.

What about your height argument? Do you still believe that simply because a player is taller than another that the taller player will be able to defend the smaller player?

And Kobe isn't an elite defender. Guy hardly ever even tries on that end of the court. Ask any Laker fan they'll tell you. (Trust me, I'm from SoCal, I would know from the constant bi**hing from Laker fans here)

[Sun Scorched]

It's simple, you get to add one FA to the Suns this offseason to improve the team:

PG - Nash
SG - Dudley
SF - Wallace
PF - Frye
C - Gortat

Okay....... or:

PG - Nash
SG - Dudley
SF - Hill
PF - Garnett
C- Gortat

The second is an immensely better team, and it still involves Hill.

[Wannabe MEP]

It's simple, you get to add one FA to the Suns this offseason to improve the team:

PG - Nash
SG - Dudley
SF - Wallace
PF - Frye
C - Gortat

Okay....... or:

PG - Nash
SG - Dudley
SF - Hill
PF - Garnett
C- Gortat

The second is an immensely better team, and it still involves Hill.

That's an interesting scenario, but I gotta go with the first.

1) It gives Nash a phenomenal slasher and an athletic target in transition, and he's a serious defensive upgrade.
2) The spacing is superb with that group. Not so much with the second. The defense for that second group is good, but the Nash-Gortat pick-and-roll will seriously struggle with the blow to our spacing. We lose a ton of what made that unit so good this year.
3) I'm already reasonably comfortable with Gortat, Frye, and Markieff as major pieces in our rotation. I think the other frontcourt spot is probably for a backup, unless we trade one of these guys away. I think it should be Lou 2.0. Frye-Markieff is a weird combo off the bench. One of our greatest needs is the ability to match small-ball, which Wallace gives us.
4) I really like the options that the first group gives us with rotations. The unit listed is one that we could definitely play big minutes with, but I'd be interested in returning Dudley to the bench if Wallace was on the Suns. I'd still want Dudley to play quite a bit, but he could be a bench stabilizer. We'd really only need one more wing then that we could consistently rely on if we staggered the minutes right.

I'd love to give this a shot:
Nash-____-Wallace-Markieff-Gortat
____-____-Dudley-Lou 2.0-Frye

But give Dudley and Frye starter minutes. Fill in those three slots with a draft pick and a couple of extras. We'd have the money for at least one more decently priced FA.

[Wannabe MEP]

Here's the chart from the article for people that didn't go take a look:

It's 3-pointers and FGs at rim made per 40 minutes, the idea being that those are the most efficient shots, and particularly important in a Steve Nash, pick-and-roll offense.

[RunDogGun]

Ouch, the sad part is we could have drafted either Deng or Iggy.

[nevetsov]

But isn't our starting lineup already the best 5 man combo in the league?