Fixing Our Bench. Recreating our Solar Subs?

[DRK]

For those of you who have been watching the past couple of Phoenix Suns Basketball games, you would've noticed a big elephant in the corner. No, not the fact that Michael Beasley's defence is very reminiscent of Eric Piatowski, not that Shannon Brown thinks he is Kobe Bryant, or not that Markieff Morris is trying to be a 6'10 version of Allen Iverson, but a bigger problem. The Bench Mob


What the coaching staff is trying to do is to put a very poor man's version of a typical NBA starting unit on the floor... with the tradiotinal defensive center, passing point guard, and high volume shooting Shooting Guard. Running safe plays (predominantly half court sets with a shot curling off a screen) That is a recipe for disaster for a unit with very average basketball abilities.

What second units are meant to do is push run hell outta the building, wearing the other team down. If you slow it down and run half court sets with a second unit that has inferior skills, those lack of basketball skills before very apparent. However, if you keep the ball plan simple (Run, Run, Run, Look for shooters, transition threes) then your skill deficincies can at least me masked somewhat, and do not get exposed as much.

We should be running and gunning. That is what made our bench pretty good towards the end of last season. That is what made our bench the Best In The League in 2009/2010.

How to fix this second unit? Small Ball.

Telfair
Brown (Strictly Spot Up, or Dribble Penetration. See Leandro Barbosa)
Johnson
PJ Tucker
Markieff Morris

We have the tools to make our bench at least good enough to hold a lead, if not extend it. We have the 3 point shooting capabilities. We have a backup point guard with seriously good handles, who can dribble drive. We have the Stretch Big. We have the Hustle, Energy Man. We have good defensive players.

But do we have the Coaching Staff willing to implement it? Time will tell.

P.S: This is just my opinion of how our bench should look like. It is NOT a thread started to bash the Coaching Staff, nor do I think I have superior basketball knowlege to them. It is just my own personal idea, came up with my own free time and my own free will.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaVMZo5YxhI[/youtube]

[GrantHill]

That lineup might be an option but I don't think that we should use it. I don't want to see Morris as our stretch big and that lineup would have serious problems with rebouding and defense (which would be the key for a run&gun system). You can't really duplicate the 2010 unit since all five of our bench players back then are better than the guys we have now. Right now, I'd rather go with O'Neal as our traditional center (he should that he can have an impact on defense) and try to concentrate on getting stops and smart offensive shots which would start with Wesley Johnson instead of Shannon Brown. If you want to keep Brown on the floor, I'd go with Marshall at the one since he has the ability to run an offense, Telfair and Brown just doesn't fit.

[Jarlaxle0204]

Watching that video just made me really sad. I miss that team so much. What could have been if Artest doesn't get that rebound......

[Cutter]

This is a great idea..........if we had Dudley and Frye coming off the bench ala 2009-10. When both Duds and Frye were promoted to starters it created 2 negative chain reactions. 1) The starting team quality took at hit as neither Dudley or Frye are starting caliber athletes. 2) The bench took a major hit as 2 excellent bench players (Duds and Frye) were no longer there to stretch the floor. Dudley or Frye should not be starting, period.

Ideal Bench
PG: Telfair - decent shot, pesky defender
SG: Brown - chucker, streaky shooter, can get super hot at times
C: Frye - last year became decent rebounder and defender, poor 3 pt shooter last year
SF: Dudley - great defender, good from 3
PF: Morris - developing game, good defense at times, streaky 3 pt shooter

If Duds and Frye go back to the bench, then that implies the Suns have replaced them on the starting team with higher quality players. Who those "higher quality players" are remain to be seen.

[RunDogGun]

I somewhat like the concept. I really wish we would have grabbed LB instead of Brown. LB is a one man fast break. Between him and Marion, we had at least one guy on the fast break.

The only thing with the plan would be something that GH mentioned, the rebounding. It was the one flaw with D'Antoni's thought of playing Jones over KT. We need to get the rebound before we can even start a fast break.

I think Tefair is quick, but I really don't like him, or his game. I think our main problem with the second unit is a continual iso, and one on one plays. There seems to be no teamwork with that unit.

Honestly, if we had LB, I think I might have him play the point in the second unit, and just put better passers around him. But that means that we didn't draft Marshall, and used that pick to get better bench guys.

[TASTIC]

I really liked what I saw from Brown yesterday, he was aggressive, we ran some isos, and he delivered when the Pistons looked like they were making a run. I just hope he's matured now and he can repeat last year's starter numbers, but off the bench, at least then we have a consistent 13-15pts from one reserve.

Friggin Morris - he has ZERO conscience, through up some awful shots and he's so much more effective when he's banging downlow and getting easy baskets/getting into rhythm, and then he can go outside more.

Tucker - I hope we don't get enamoured with this guy, he's solid, but he's not a 20-25min guy, he should be used strictly as a 12-15min energy spark off the bench, and play him more minutes when the matchup suits

[nevetsov]

As I recall, brown missed a whole lot of jumpers in the first half.

He then made a couple of aggressive drives to the basket, got his bearings, and boom, all of a sudden his jumpshots started dropping as well. Pretty sure this happened in the past as well.

Time to tell shann no shooting until you've hit a layup?

[nevetsov]

Oh, and has Morris hit a three in the last 10 months? He was blistering out of the gate as a rook but has clanked everything since. Beginners luck maybe...

[Dragic13]

Oh, and has Morris hit a three in the last 10 months? He was blistering out of the gate as a rook but has clanked everything since. Beginners luck maybe...

Marcus Morris hit back to back 3s the other night...lol

But I think he has been working alot on his post play and mid range game.

He looked AMAZING in the summer league.

[NashtyNas]

This is a great idea..........if we had Dudley and Frye coming off the bench ala 2009-10. When both Duds and Frye were promoted to starters it created 2 negative chain reactions. 1) The starting team quality took at hit as neither Dudley or Frye are starting caliber athletes. 2) The bench took a major hit as 2 excellent bench players (Duds and Frye) were no longer there to stretch the floor. Dudley or Frye should not be starting, period.

Ideal Bench
PG: Telfair - decent shot, pesky defender
SG: Brown - chucker, streaky shooter, can get super hot at times
C: Frye - last year became decent rebounder and defender, poor 3 pt shooter last year
SF: Dudley - great defender, good from 3
PF: Morris - developing game, good defense at times, streaky 3 pt shooter

If Duds and Frye go back to the bench, then that implies the Suns have replaced them on the starting team with higher quality players. Who those "higher quality players" are remain to be seen.

You forget that we had the privilege of having Dragic backing up Nash... Dragic is now also a starter. People will say he wasn't the same player, but he always has been this good. Confidence and lack of playing time (and getting accustomed to the NBA) were his only issues.

When 3 of your top bench players become starters and you replace them with low-IQ basketball talent like Brown and Wesley Johnson, you're in trouble. I would have way rather preferred to bring back Michael Redd than Shannon fricking Brown... Marshall is not ready to be an NBA player, Telfair at least brings defense, energy and scoring when needed.

Our problem with the bench is it's supremely streaky feel and terrible bigs. Morris is good when he's scoring, but he doesn't do much else. He should be the streth-4, but he can't be playing all his minutes with a sloth like O'Neal.

What our bench needs is a Sweet Lou replacement; Jermaine O'Neal is not it. Also, we need a smarter shooting guard; as reckless as Barbosa was, he was smart and not a mere chucker. He was primarly a slasher that could shoot very well and flourished off wide open looks in the transition; that's what we need once again. Brown is just a black hole.

I think Johnson can be adequate as the 3 if he focuses on defense and slashing as well. Unfortunately, doesn't look like that's going to be the case.

[bigfoot]

Fix it by ... moving Tucker to the starting lineup for Dudley. Tucker's job is to play defense and rebound.

Marshall
Dudley
Johnson
Zeller
Morris

Four three-point shooters and a passing PG. Let Telfail and Brown ride the pine with O'Neal.

[DRK]

What second units are meant to do is push run hell outta the building, wearing the other team down. If you slow it down and run half court sets with a second unit that has inferior skills, those lack of basketball skills before very apparent. However, if you keep the ball plan simple (Run, Run, Run, Look for shooters, transition threes) then your skill deficincies can at least me masked somewhat, and do not get exposed as much.

That was the sentence that is meant to define this thread.

I've watched that video of your Super Bench playing against the Lakers over 10 times.

I dont care if it's Dragic playing, or Telfair playing, because in a system that our bench ran, BOTH could've done the same thing and as good as a job.

Dragic, yes he is an amazing player. However for our 2009/10 bench unit, we do need an amazing player to do the job that Dragic did. Dribble the ball up court, penetrate, and dish to open three point shooters. How hard can that be? telfair could pull that off easily.

Zone defence, no problem.

Three point shooters: Brown and Johnson. I personally think Johnson has a better shot than Dudley anyway.

Look, sure Dudley and Frye were "starter quality" players. But our game plan was so simple that any average NBA player with defenct athleticism and a decent three point shot could run it and make it a weapon.

It's worth a shot, because if I ever see this bench unit attempt to run half court sets again, I might just decided to hang myself.

[sunfire0112]

Dragic, yes he is an amazing player. However for our 2009/10 bench unit, we do need an amazing player to do the job that Dragic did. Dribble the ball up court, penetrate, and dish to open three point shooters. How hard can that be? telfair could pull that off easily.

You might be oversimplifying the amazing job Dragic did in '09/10. While Telfair has great handles and adequate vision, he just doesn't have the mentality or IQ to run such an offense (or any offense). I give him credit for upping his defensive intensity but he's still prone to killing our offensive flow by over-dribbling and settling for bad shots. If you ask a backcourt of Telfair and Brown to Run'N'Gun, expect a lot of chucking, minimal penetrating, and the rest of our 3point shooters to be very lonely on offense.

I was hoping Marshall would be more along by now because the offense you described is tailor made for him to run, especially if he's not pressured to score and is able to hide on the defensive end in a zone.

[RunDogGun]

Fix it by ... moving Tucker to the starting lineup for Dudley. Tucker's job is to play defense and rebound.

Marshall
Dudley
Johnson
Zeller
Morris

Four three-point shooters and a passing PG. Let Telfail and Brown ride the pine with O'Neal.

You could still do all that and just sub JO for Zeller. Yes you lose the three point threat, but as we saw with KT as an anchor, we can still run a balls out running machine, and overall that won't start until we have secured the rebound. Every once in a while you can put Brown in there for some extra speed. But then you use him as a leak out like we often did with LB and Marion. You have Brown play defense at the top of the key area, and he is the first to break.

Now if we had retain Lou, and put him place of Zeller, you lose even more range, but you gain so much speed and hustle. Then with your idea of Tucker in the starting lineup, you would have two all out hustle guys, one in each lineup. This is something I felt we should have done last year. Those all out hustle guys and the buy in from the rest of the team that that kind of hustle is the norm not the exception, and we have that 2010 team.

[nevetsov]

I love Keef but his performance thus far doesn't warrant a spot in the rotation. Too early in the season to be benching him but if things don't change I'd move Beas to PF and get Wes into the lineup:

Starters: Dragic, Brown, Dudley, Scola, Gortat

Bench: Telfair, Tucker, Johnson, Beasley, O'Neal


Scola and Brown become offensive options 1 and 2, with 3 decent defender/ scorers alongside them.

Beasley can carry the offensive load with the bench and with him at PF they can run run run. Plus, he's with 4 decent defenders so they can hopefully help mask his deficiencies.

[DRK]

Dragic, yes he is an amazing player. However for our 2009/10 bench unit, we do need an amazing player to do the job that Dragic did. Dribble the ball up court, penetrate, and dish to open three point shooters. How hard can that be? telfair could pull that off easily.

You might be oversimplifying the amazing job Dragic did in '09/10. While Telfair has great handles and adequate vision, he just doesn't have the mentality or IQ to run such an offense (or any offense). I give him credit for upping his defensive intensity but he's still prone to killing our offensive flow by over-dribbling and settling for bad shots. If you ask a backcourt of Telfair and Brown to Run'N'Gun, expect a lot of chucking, minimal penetrating, and the rest of our 3point shooters to be very lonely on offense.

I was hoping Marshall would be more along by now because the offense you described is tailor made for him to run, especially if he's not pressured to score and is able to hide on the defensive end in a zone.

I'm taking nothing away from Dragic in 2009 and 2010. He was amazing.

However, Telfair showed me enough last season in the second half to convince me that he has the ability to run a high tempo offence. His ball handling is very good, tenacious defence, decent passing, and he's a three point threat. However, the most important aspect is he's quick and athletic.


Chucking is something we want with this second unit. I dont mind chucking, as long as it's good shots. With Telfair penetrating on every play, and finding open 3 point shooters on the outside, I really dont care how many of those shots Brown, Johnson, or Morris take.

If you are running and penetrating, you're forcing the defence to react and collapse. That means that there will be open shooters on the outside.

[sunfire0112]

DRK, I agree that running such a high tempo office w/ the second unit is the best way to play to their strengths but I'm afraid of Brown and Telfair stagnating the offense by falling back into their usual tendency to over-dribble. Idk who had the brilliant idea of having the bench utilize this stagnant half-court offense, which only encourages these bad habits.

I'm okay with launching up open 3-pointers like no tomorrow but I don't want them chucking up highly-contested shots early in the shot clock. That's more what I meant by chucking... a difference Shannon "Kobe" Brown seems incapable of making.

Having the bench Run'N'Gun sounds simple but our coaching staff would have to beat out some of these bad habits our players have. Definitely possible and would take some time but anything's better than the offense right now.

[Long Time Sun]

For those of you who have been watching the past couple of Phoenix Suns Basketball games, you would've noticed a big elephant in the corner. No, not the fact that Michael Beasley's defence is very reminiscent of Eric Piatowski, not that Shannon Brown thinks he is Kobe Bryant, or not that Markieff Morris is trying to be a 6'10 version of Allen Iverson, but a bigger problem. The Bench Mob


What the coaching staff is trying to do is to put a very poor man's version of a typical NBA starting unit on the floor... with the tradiotinal defensive center, passing point guard, and high volume shooting Shooting Guard. Running safe plays (predominantly half court sets with a shot curling off a screen) That is a recipe for disaster for a unit with very average basketball abilities.

What second units are meant to do is push run hell outta the building, wearing the other team down. If you slow it down and run half court sets with a second unit that has inferior skills, those lack of basketball skills before very apparent. However, if you keep the ball plan simple (Run, Run, Run, Look for shooters, transition threes) then your skill deficincies can at least me masked somewhat, and do not get exposed as much.

We should be running and gunning. That is what made our bench pretty good towards the end of last season. That is what made our bench the Best In The League in 2009/2010.

How to fix this second unit? Small Ball.

Telfair
Brown (Strictly Spot Up, or Dribble Penetration. See Leandro Barbosa)
Johnson
PJ Tucker
Markieff Morris

We have the tools to make our bench at least good enough to hold a lead, if not extend it. We have the 3 point shooting capabilities. We have a backup point guard with seriously good handles, who can dribble drive. We have the Stretch Big. We have the Hustle, Energy Man. We have good defensive players.

But do we have the Coaching Staff willing to implement it? Time will tell.

P.S: This is just my opinion of how our bench should look like. It is NOT a thread started to bash the Coaching Staff, nor do I think I have superior basketball knowlege to them. It is just my own personal idea, came up with my own free time and my own free will.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaVMZo5YxhI[/youtube]

DRK- Thanks for the memories...watched the whole thing...right now we are really missing Channing...he would be great to have on that second unit...interesting in that Gentry was using a 10 man rotation then...but, he had the talent...I would much rather have Barbosa than Brown despite his Bobcat Blowout game...long term he just doesn't fit...fast break would be great but like Sunfire says, with Bassy and "Chuck" Brown, can it been executed? It's definitely worth a shot...

[DRK]

DRK, I agree that running such a high tempo office w/ the second unit is the best way to play to their strengths but I'm afraid of Brown and Telfair stagnating the offense by falling back into their usual tendency to over-dribble. Idk who had the brilliant idea of having the bench utilize this stagnant half-court offense, which only encourages these bad habits.

I'm okay with launching up open 3-pointers like no tomorrow but I don't want them chucking up highly-contested shots early in the shot clock. That's more what I meant by chucking... a difference Shannon "Kobe" Brown seems incapable of making.

Having the bench Run'N'Gun sounds simple but our coaching staff would have to beat out some of these bad habits our players have. Definitely possible and would take some time but anything's better than the offense right now.

I fully understand your concerns, and I have to agree with you.

However, I have faith that Brown, for the sake of the team, would not launch up bad shots if told not to. It is due to his getting the green light on offence by Gentry which has lead to some questionable shot selection.

[DRK]

What did our bench unit do tonight?

Run the floor! We pushed the tempo! Ran them mf-ers outta the building, hit threes, and attacked the rim!

I Love this!