Tankers.....We Have A Problem!!!

[JMac1]

As we stand right now, we just aren't bad enough to tank. I was talking to my Laker buddy and we started to discuss the Suns and I realized...

Dragic
Bledsoe
Bealsey
Scola
Gortat
Marshall
Brown
Tucker
Butler
Morris
Morris
Frye
Len
Goodwin

may not be the superstars we want, but they are far from "sucking," and that includes Beasley. The only way we are going to dump some of these players and be in the Wiggins, Randle, Smart, Gordon, and Parker sweepstakes is to get less value, otherwise we will be around 7, 8 or above pick in next year's draft.

How do we get rid of these players? If we are changing our culture, we are gonna teach these guys to play hard......if they do, I just can't see them stinking that badly. So we either trade good contracts for bad contracts, suck and get a good pick or stay as is.....keep cap space and be pretty decent, and get a bad pick.

What do you guys think? I am stumped!

My though is Scola, Gortat, Butler and Goran has to go and Frye cannot be Frye of old if we want to be like Boston and Philly.

Dragic/Goodwin/Marshall
Bledsoe/Brown
Butler/Tucker....or the Lakers Beasley
Scola/Frye/Morris
Gortat/Len

that is a damn near .500 lineup or better....am I tripping?

[rsavaj]

We won 25 games last season.

Doubling up on PGs(Bledsoe) and subtracting Dudley does not improve this team by 16 games, even if Frye comes back, and even if Butler turns back the clock.

Now, if you're saying that this team might not be 1-5 bad, but might be 6-10 bad(lotto-wise), then sure, I'd agree with you. But Gambo said that the team is trying to move Gortat and Scola, so we'll see what McDonough does. Not a fan of his draft, but he's proven to be more competent than the last idiot we had running the team by far, so I'm looking forward to watching him paint the canvas.

Bright Side had an article on this subject: http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/ ... e-alex-len

[JMac1]

We won 25 games last season.

Doubling up on PGs(Bledsoe) and subtracting Dudley does not improve this team by 16 games, even if Frye comes back, and even if Butler turns back the clock.

Now, if you're saying that this team might not be 1-5 bad, but might be 6-10 bad(lotto-wise), then sure, I'd agree with you. But Gambo said that the team is trying to move Gortat and Scola, so we'll see what McDonough does. Not a fan of his draft, but he's proven to be more competent than the last idiot we had running the team by far, so I'm looking forward to watching him paint the canvas.

Bright Side had an article on this subject: http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/ ... e-alex-len

I think we are 7-11 bad to be specific, if Frye and Butler turn back the clock. Dudley had an off year last year too. I think Bledsoe will make us better....defense causing offense. I also think if these guys swallow what the organization is feeding, then that will net us 5-7 games alone.

My question is what do you think he would/could do. Saying he is going to move Gortat and Scola is easier said then done when you factor in trying to be bad and keep cap flexibility, how do we do that is my question? I have no idea, that is the question I am posing.

[gaspar]

ATM there are only 3 teams with worse rosters than the Suns - 76ers, Jazz and Bobcats and it's still very early in the offseason. Let's talk about this in 2 months.

[JMac1]

Answering my own question. I guess we could just bench them until trade deadline.......but that will hurt their value. Damn, I am really concerned about this.

[Jarlaxle0204]

We won 25 games last season.

Doubling up on PGs(Bledsoe) and subtracting Dudley does not improve this team by 16 games, even if Frye comes back, and even if Butler turns back the clock.

Now, if you're saying that this team might not be 1-5 bad, but might be 6-10 bad(lotto-wise), then sure, I'd agree with you. But Gambo said that the team is trying to move Gortat and Scola, so we'll see what McDonough does. Not a fan of his draft, but he's proven to be more competent than the last idiot we had running the team by far, so I'm looking forward to watching him paint the canvas.

Bright Side had an article on this subject: http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/ ... e-alex-len

I think we are 7-11 bad to be specific, if Frye and Butler turn back the clock. Dudley had an off year last year too. I think Bledsoe will make us better....defense causing offense. I also think if these guys swallow what the organization is feeding, then that will net us 5-7 games alone.

My question is what do you think he would/could do. Saying he is going to move Gortat and Scola is easier said then done when you factor in trying to be bad and keep cap flexibility, how do we do that is my question? I have no idea, that is the question I am posing.

It's shocking to me that you think there are 6 to 10 teams worse than us. Would you care to say who you think is worse?

I think we are still the worst in the west easily. The Pelicans got much better. I think Sacremento will be better with McLemore as well.

This brings us to the East. Charlotte got better. I can see Phillie being worse than us and maybe Orlando still. Boston will be worse but if they still have Rondo it won't be that tough to accumulate some wins in the easy East. I think Toronto is a bubble team.

I'm honestly curious who you think will be worse than us. I have us slotted as 3rd worst before the lottery behind Phi and one of Orl/Cha.

[JMac1]

It's shocking to me that you think there are 6 to 10 teams worse than us. Would you care to say who you think is worse?

I think we are still the worst in the west easily. The Pelicans got much better. I think Sacremento will be better with McLemore as well.

This brings us to the East. Charlotte got better. I can see Phillie being worse than us and maybe Orlando still. Boston will be worse but if they still have Rondo it won't be that tough to accumulate some wins in the easy East. I think Toronto is a bubble team.

I'm honestly curious who you think will be worse than us. I have us slotted as 3rd worst before the lottery behind Phi and one of Orl/Cha.

Ok... Sac is always bad no matter what. The Pelicans can't stay healthy, the Jazz, Pistons, Celtics, Hornets, Orlando, Toronto, and Maybe even Dallas.....

That is NINE teams..... It isn't a forgone conclusion that we will be worse than any of them! So how is that "shocking?"

[JMac1]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/phoenix-su ... 00940.html

Here is a USA Today article on the Subject

COMMENTARY | There aren't many other NBA franchises that need a star worse than the Phoenix Suns. Andrew Wiggins will be eligible for the 2014 NBA draft and is viewed as the biggest "sure thing" since LeBron James. Should the Suns just tank the 2013-14 season to give themselves the best chance to get the No. 1 overall pick?

THE ARGUMENT FOR TANKING

If indeed Wiggins turns out to be as good as advertised, the Suns should do everything in their power to get the chance to draft him. For at least the first four seasons of his career, he'd be on a reasonable rookie contract and the Suns would instantly return to relevance in the basketball world.

Sure, the Suns would be spitting in the faces of their fans for an entire year, but wouldn't most give up one season to get back into the limelight for the better part of a decade? I know plenty of folks in Charlotte are nodding their heads right now.

Being awarded the No. 1 overall pick in a draft as strong as the 2014 one projects to be is like holding the golden ticket. For those who have forgotten, the team with the worst record is given a 25 percent chance of landing the top pick. By contrast, dropping to the fourth-worst record hurts the percentage dramatically, as that team only has an 11.9 percent chance at No. 1.

There is a hidden benefit to tanking, as well. Players that generally wouldn't get a lot of playing time could have an opportunity to show what they can do. The Suns could take extended looks at players to decide whether they'll have value as bench players when the franchise turns around.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST TANKING

So, the team has done it's due diligence in losing to the best of their abilities. The fans are frustrated and moody, but they realize it's for the "greater good" of earning the No. 1 pick. The NBA draft lottery comes up and voila! The Suns slip in the draft and are slotted at No. 3, missing out on Wiggins.

In fact, under the current lottery system, only four times in the last 28 years has the team with the worst record actually won the lottery. It hasn't happened since the 2004 Orlando Magic, who selected Dwight Howard.

The Suns would have wasted an entire year of development, marketing and team-building trying to set themselves up for something that never happened. The fans who paid their hard-earned money to come to games and buy jerseys would be screwed. The players on the team would have wasted a year of their careers, which they would never get back.

The small benefit to this situation is that the Suns would likely have plenty of cap room with which to sign free agents to get the ball rolling again. But, who would want to come to Phoenix knowing it's a franchise in shambles?

CONCLUSION

Tanking is a risk that's not worth taking. The Suns should field the best team they can (while keeping salaries reasonable). They can use the 2012-13 season to continue to develop their own players like Markieff Morris, Alex Len and Goran Dragic. Even if they overachieve and win 35 games, they'll still be in the lottery and will still have a chance to win the Wiggins sweepstakes.

[gaspar]

We won 25 games last season.

Doubling up on PGs(Bledsoe) and subtracting Dudley does not improve this team by 16 games, even if Frye comes back, and even if Butler turns back the clock.

Now, if you're saying that this team might not be 1-5 bad, but might be 6-10 bad(lotto-wise), then sure, I'd agree with you. But Gambo said that the team is trying to move Gortat and Scola, so we'll see what McDonough does. Not a fan of his draft, but he's proven to be more competent than the last idiot we had running the team by far, so I'm looking forward to watching him paint the canvas.

Bright Side had an article on this subject: http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2013/ ... e-alex-len

I think we are 7-11 bad to be specific, if Frye and Butler turn back the clock. Dudley had an off year last year too. I think Bledsoe will make us better....defense causing offense. I also think if these guys swallow what the organization is feeding, then that will net us 5-7 games alone.

My question is what do you think he would/could do. Saying he is going to move Gortat and Scola is easier said then done when you factor in trying to be bad and keep cap flexibility, how do we do that is my question? I have no idea, that is the question I am posing.

It's shocking to me that you think there are 6 to 10 teams worse than us. Would you care to say who you think is worse?

I think we are still the worst in the west easily. The Pelicans got much better. I think Sacremento will be better with McLemore as well.

This brings us to the East. Charlotte got better. I can see Phillie being worse than us and maybe Orlando still. Boston will be worse but if they still have Rondo it won't be that tough to accumulate some wins in the easy East. I think Toronto is a bubble team.

I'm honestly curious who you think will be worse than us. I have us slotted as 3rd worst before the lottery behind Phi and one of Orl/Cha.

The Magic have:

Nelson/Moore
Oladipo/Afflalo
Harris/Harkless
Big Baby/Nicholson
Vucevic/O'Quinn

If they don't make any moves and their veterans stay healthy they're on a similar level as the Suns and will play a much easier schedule than Phoenix.

Tank-Nation: 76ers, Jazz, Bobcats
Likely tanking: Suns, Magic, Kings
Could go either way: Cavs, Wizards, Pelicans, Celtics, Raptors, Bucks, Lakers, Mavs
Not tanking: rest

[phrazbit]

You're tripping... hard. This is easily the worst team in the conference.

IMO the worst team is between Suns, Sixers, Celtics, Bobcats, and the Bobcats are not trying to tank as evidence by the Jefferson signing.

Last year we won 25 games... since then we traded our most fundamentally sound player and the closest thing to a leader on this team for a 2nd point guard, we draft two MAJOR projects who if they play much next year is a huge white flag, we are defensively deficient at 4 of 5 positions, we are easily the worst outside shooting team in the league (we were the worst last year despite Dudley's excellent shooting and he gone)... and in an era where 3 point shooting is of huge importance. Oh, and our only legit interior defender (O'Neal) is not returning.

I am not saying we need to TRY to tank, the team is going to be flat out bad next year and if you think otherwise then you are sipping some damn strong kool-aid. Even if for some silly reason we keep Gortat and Scola around this team would be lucky to win a mere 30 games, seeing as those two are likely to be shipped off at some point I bet we win about 22, maybe less.

[RunSunRun]

Think you may need to wear glasses and not beer goggles when looking at this Suns squad

[bwgood77]

I think they only team that might be worse than us in the west is Sacramento. And the only team worse in the east is Philly and Boston. Boston could probably even be better if they tried, with Rondo, Bradley, Green, Bass, Sullinger. Bobcats might be worse, but they are getting older and added a good scoring big, so even they could be ok. Raptors may try and tank though. And then Orlando.

But still, it should end up something like

Philly
Boston
Phoenix
Sacramento
Charlotte
Orlando
Toronto

We should finish somewhere between the 3rd and 7th worst record. Worst case scenario is we finish 4th-7th worst and have 1-3 teams jump us in lottery.

Even if we end up with the 5th pick, we would likely miss on Wiggins, Randle, Parker and Gordon......one thing that sucks is that most of the teams tanking already have a pg, so we might be looking at 3 pgs (Smart, Exum and Harrison) as the next 3 best players and have to take one, trade down, or take someone like Glenn Robinson.

To have better odds, you really want to finish in the bottom four, but it will probably be pretty close. I think Sacramento and/or Charlotte could easily finish with better records than us though.

[JMac1]

Well the Piston just got better!! But the major difference between the Suns and the rest of the teams are, Gortat, playoff experience, Brown, Dragic, Butler, Scola, Frye, and Bledsoe have been around winning teams, the other teams have little to no players that have been winners.

Edit: meaning they no how to suck hard! I remember when we were winning games and people were up in arms. I am not trying to argue with EVERYONE here, but it is not inconceivable that we could be the 8th or 9th worst team IF we don't trade Scola, Gortat, and Butler.

I agree with the above poster and hope we do end up with 1-5 worst records, but I am not putting it in the bag as of now.... Just throwing out teams mean nothing. Find me a team who starting five are worse than ours..

Dragic (quality starter)
Bledsoe (quality player)
Butler (solid Vet)
Scola (good starter)
Gortat (quality starter)
Frye (decent starter)
Tucker (quality bench guy)

Any of those guys can start on many NBA teams, that is why I am nervous. If we trot out there with Morris', Beasley, Goodwin, Len, Marshall, Brown...... then we will be super bad.

Again my original post isn't who we are worse/better than..... it is how do we get rid of Scola, Gortat, and Butler??

[sunskerr]

We don't have to deliberately sit guys to get a poor record. If last season wasn't evidence enough of that, then we should also trade (hopefully) all of Scola/Butler/Frye/Gortat if the right opportunities are there - therefore allowing us to A) Develop our young players and B) Get a high draft pick.

[JMac1]

We don't have to deliberately sit guys to get a poor record. If last season wasn't evidence enough of that, then we should also trade (hopefully) all of Scola/Butler/Frye/Gortat if the right opportunities are there - therefore allowing us to A) Develop our young players and B) Get a high draft pick.

that's my point!! last year was a train wreck. We stunk from the head down. Lanc Blanks, Gentry and Hunter??!!! Those guys are gone!! Hornacek and McD is bringing a different attitude to the team (supposedly). Psychologically we should be better which would lead to more wins on GP, with our current players.

I can't believe posters...."oh we sucked last year, we will suck this year." A lot of players quit last year as well. I'm just saying, if you have quality players buy in, we could have the 10th pick, who knows......there is a chance. Again

Dragic (WCF)
Bledsoe (2nd round)
Butler (title) savy
Scola (2nd round)
Gortat (Finals)

good players with playoff experience....I can't believe you guys would just dismiss that!?

[phrazbit]

They have playoff experience but none of them were anything more than bench players on those playoff teams (except Butler who is well past his prime). That does not count for beans when as a team you can shoot or play defense. And I think you are severely overrating some guys.

Dragic: league average starter
Bledsoe: Unproven guy with potential
Butler: Defensive doormat, below average starter
Scola: Bad starter, decent reserve
Gortat: Average starter

And the bench is full of bad bad players or projects like Len and Goodwin who will probably contribute little towards success this year.

Once again, what will this team do well? For a team to go .500 or even close to it you'd think they would be good at SOMETHING. This team will struggle on the glass, they are easily the worst outside shooting team in the entire league, they have a lot of defensive liabilities, they wont get to the FT line much... hell, for all the "experience" we dont even have a player that you can count on as a leader.

This is a bad bad roster. And thats to be expected with how poorly the team was ran for the previous 3 years. Adding a couple young guys with potential is not likely to turn a 25 win team into a 40 win one, if anything they will likely be a tad worse next year.

[sunskerr]

I don't know if the additions of Butler/Bledsoe and Hornacek are enough to get it done. Infact I'd say Butler is a pretty darn average player at this point of his career. Of course what the front office has done so far this off season has been pleasant (Acquiring Bledsoe is solid and Len looks like a good prospect).

But I also think that if our team isn't very good, then player development should be the number 1 priority. And if you see the competition that they're up against, I'm sure you'd be inclined to agree that it's really tough out west. There really wouldn't be a point to playing guys that are ~30ish years old when they'll be pushing retirement in 2-3 years or noticeably declining. The guys sitting behind them won't get much playing time even though they need to develop into the future core or rotation of the team and you need to weed out the good/bad young players. Leave worrying about the draft pick for the off season because that is what comes after.

This is sort of directed at criticism of 'tanking' but I'm really trying to be balanced about it because I don't think getting a high draft pick is as important as developing the guys you already have. For me, if you're focusing on that sort of development then you're really not trying to lose on purpose for a draft pick.

[b-ball forever]

Everything's fine, we'll still be among the worst teams in the NBA and likely the worst team in the west again.

The Jazz and 76's will be as bad if they don't add on any good players.

The Bobcats will be better than us and might even make the playoffs in the weak east. They added on Al Jefferson who will solve a big part of their offensive problems, and MKG/Kemba Walker/Henderson/Biyombo/Mullens are all still very young guys who will be better than last year. Josh McRoberts was also a nice addition late in the season, and we'll see what Zeller brings.

[JMac1]

I don't know if the additions of Butler/Bledsoe and Hornacek are enough to get it done. Infact I'd say Butler is a pretty darn average player at this point of his career. Of course what the front office has done so far this off season has been pleasant (Acquiring Bledsoe is solid and Len looks like a good prospect).

But I also think that if our team isn't very good, then player development should be the number 1 priority. And if you see the competition that they're up against, I'm sure you'd be inclined to agree that it's really tough out west. There really wouldn't be a point to playing guys that are ~30ish years old when they'll be pushing retirement in 2-3 years or noticeably declining. The guys sitting behind them won't get much playing time even though they need to develop into the future core or rotation of the team and you need to weed out the good/bad young players. Leave worrying about the draft pick for the off season because that is what comes after.

Exactly.... So how do we do that, without causing trouble in the locker room and on the court?

[BVPN]

Just start Beasley at SF and we got wiggins on lock