Is Goran's regression due to 3 PG system or was last year a fluke?

Revived · Post #1 » by **Revived** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 9:45 pm

Goran's numbers are down and have gone crashing down last 10 games. He was our best player last year and a key component and leader in us getting 48 wins.

I remember going on the Kings forum when we signed IT and many of them were glad and many of them also said that this will affect the team and that to expect other players on the Suns getting pissed due to IT's style of play.

Even though I think IT's not a bad player, I hate the fit on this team. He just doesn't fit in and most importantly, imo it's affecting the performance of our best player from last year.

Here's tbe million dollar question; Dragic and Bledsoe played AMAZING last season when it was just them two, we easily make playoffs if Bledsoe doesn't get injured.....so why go and get yet another PG in IT to ruin the chemistry that the Dragic-Bledsoe combo had?

Why fix some thing that wasn't broken?

One of the main reasons the Dragic-Bledsoe worked was because it gave them both chances to run the offense while the other was resting on the bench and when they were on the court, it allowed them to let the other take the lead every now and then.

Now, we have instead turned Goran into a complete off guard/small forward who just sits on the perimeter.

Before people say "We only signed IT because we didn't know if Bledsoe was coming back", well then why not trade IT after we signed Bledsoe? Why not trade IT in Nov, Dec or hell even January? He supposedly has amazing trade value right since he's a big "asset"?

So why not have traded him and just kept the same Dragic-Bledsoe combo from last year with maybe Ennis getting the spare Ish minutes?

Or maybe I'm completely wrong and last year's All NBA season was just a fluke season for Goran?

Imo we ruined something that was going to be great (Bledsoe-Dragic combo) by signing IT.

Note: Again, I don't think IT's a bad player. He's a good player and can ball. However, I think he's a bad fit for our team.

schnakenpopanz · Post #2 » by **schnakenpopanz** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 10:23 pm

superb analysis of the situation. thomas is not the right player for the suns. he could help teams like the bulls superbly.

MilotheSlayer · Post #3 » by **MilotheSlayer** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 10:23 pm

I think his numbers would have regressed no matter what we did, but it would have been nice to see him and Bled continue to mesh together. I like IT in our system, just not with our roster.

suns91fan · Post #4 » by **suns91fan** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 10:26 pm

He didn't regress at all. His role changed, but he is still as good as he was last year. One can argue that his defense and 3pt shooting got worse, but that's about it. When it comes to defense, his job is much harder this year. Players he is supposed to guard are bigger than him, and add the fact that he was never a good defender, and you get what you see this year. About 3pt shooting, i think last year was a fluke, as Dragic is not a natural shooter, and this year's 35% is about the same as his career %s.

You say "Why fix something that wasn't broken?". I say, how was it not broken? Bledsoe missed a good part of the season. That was broken. We lost Bledsoe, and we didn't have another quality guard to help Goran during that stretch. He was literally exhausted and his level of play dropped significantly in the last month of regular season. That's why Thomas was signed. Not just to serve as a backup in case Bledsoe leaves, not only to be there in case one of Dragic/Bledsoe gets injured, but also to take some minutes from them both and prevent future injuries due to heavy minutes. Yes, you can argue that Ennis could have been that guy, but on one side Ennis is a rookie (and it was a complete unknown if he was up for the job), and on the other side you have Thomas with 3-year NBA experience, who is a much better player than Ennis is at this moment.

I fully expect the Suns to capitalize on that, and stay fresh and injury free all the way until the season ends.

WeekapaugGroove · Post #5 » by **WeekapaugGroove** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 10:27 pm

Both. Regression was going to happen. **** his numbers were inflated some while Bledsoe was out. But IT taking some of his shots hasn't helped the situation. It's probably about 50/50 regression and IT.

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toucansma · Post #6 » by **toucansma** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 10:57 pm

I said in another thread I think its a bit of both. Not so much regression but frustration/confidence of Goran. When you watch him control the ball I think he is still the best playmaker on the team. However putting him on the wing/off the ball has frustrated him. He reminds me a lot of what Steve Nash looked like under Terry Porter's system or in the Princeton offense, where the ball was out of his hands way too much.

In Len We Trust · Post #7 » by **In Len We Trust** » Fri Feb 6, 2015 11:52 pm

Well, the biggest problem I see with him this year is that he is shooting 3's and other jump shots at a much lower % than he was last year. If he was hitting more shots he would be having a great season. It is hard to determine whether this is a cause of him getting the ball less resulting in less confidence when he shoots or if it means that last year he just had a lucky shooting year.

Frank Lee · Post #8 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 12:55 am

Might have been a fluke for McDo

Hesh · Post #9 » by **Hesh** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 10:34 am

If IT doesn't fit on our team then he wont fit on any team in the NBA. Too good to be a bench player, not good enough to be a starter (due to height). I know if he was a bit taller he could actually see the offense. We're a team in the best situation to incorporate any style of player so if he can't pull it off here he ain't going to pull it off anywhere.

phrazbit · Post #10 » by **phrazbit** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 10:55 am

The IT signing isn't helping him, but his real problem is the lack of a pick and roll partner. Frye's departure (while a wise move) has killed Dragic's production. Dragic is still the same player he was in transition, but his half-court game is a shadow of what it was last year when he had Frye to shed defenders and draw bigs from the interior.

MrMiyagi · Post #11 » by **MrMiyagi** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 10:55 am

Frank Lee wrote:Might have been a fluke for McDo

You mean a fluke bad signing?

Revived · Post #12 » by **Revived** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 11:06 am

Hesh wrote:If IT doesn't fit on our team then he wont fit on any team in the NBA. Too good to be a bench player, not good enough to be a starter (due to height). I know if he was a bit taller he could actually see the offense. We're a team in the best situation to incorporate any style of player so if he can't pull it off here he ain't going to pull it off anywhere.

He's 6'3. All teams that are interested in him in free agency are looking at him as their PG.

How is 6'3 not tall enough for a PG?

MrMiyagi · Post #13 » by **MrMiyagi** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 11:19 am

SF88 wrote:
Hesh wrote:If IT doesn't fit on our team then he wont fit on any team in the NBA. Too good to be a bench player, not good enough to be a starter (due to height). I know if he was a bit taller he could actually see the offense. We're a team in the best situation to incorporate any style of player so if he can't pull it off here he ain't going to pull it off anywhere.

He's 6'3. All teams that are interested in him in free agency are looking at him as their PG.

How is 6'3 not tall enough for a PG?

He's talking about Isaiah Thomas

Frank Lee · Post #14 » by **Frank Lee** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 1:50 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Might have been a fluke for McDo

You mean a fluke bad signing?

Lets hope.... but I was snidely whiplashing McDo here.... as both our off season signings (IT+ Tolly) have had question marks on them. McDo started out great guns with Bled for Dud, ...cant recall if he had anything to to with Scola, but since then.....??? A decent draft , may be two....? And .. um ... and ....?

GM's fall prey to the 'What have you done for me lately' litmus test more than most.

Barkley6 · Post #15 » by **Barkley6** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 3:23 pm

I chose the 'other' category because I feel like the half court sets we run are just atrocious this season. The ball doesn't move, and we have guys like Green and IT (both of whom I like as players) dominating the ball and chucking up bad shots. To me, that's the offense having problems (which comes down to coaching). How many times have we seen a straight up pick and roll run at the top of the key? I've been BEGGING for that since Brandan Wright was signed and it's used sparingly at best, or how about a pick and pop with Kieff or Marcus? Barely used. It's all iso situations and when the shots aren't falling we look awful. I've been pretty impressed at how we are playing more team defense with good help, multiple people crashing the boards, etc. but we don't play anything like team offense.

Can Dragic be an effective Iso guard? Sure, he can get to the rim, he can create his own shot, but he has to work hard to do it. Why not help him out by running some easy offensive sets like PnR or PnP?

Barkley6 · Post #16 » by **Barkley6** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 3:29 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Might have been a fluke for McDo

You mean a fluke bad signing?

Lets hope.... but I was snidely whiplashing McDo here.... as both our off season signings (IT+ Tolly) have had question marks on them. McDo started out great guns with Bled for Dud, ...cant recall if he had anything to to with Scola, but since then.....??? A decent draft , may be two....? And .. um ... and ....?

GM's fall prey to the 'What have you done for me lately' litmus test more than most.

You're not giving McD his due. He hired Jeff Hornacek, he traded Scola for Green and Plum, traded Gortat (which allowed us to play the way we did last year), traded Dudley for Bledsoe, drafted Alex Len, drafted/acquired young talent (Warren, Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock)...let us not forget the days of Sean Marks being out 9th man.....yikes!, acquired Brandan Wright, stuck to his guns and resigned Bledsoe at less than the max. Tolliver was a mistake, but one he recognized early and fixed (basically upgraded from Tolly to Wright), and in my opinion the jury is still out on IT. So, he's made 2 mistakes in his 2 years as GM here, one of which he's already fixed at no cost to the team. So one mistake in 2 years, or 1 mistake in call it, 10 decisions? I'll take a 90% success rate.

In Len We Trust · Post #17 » by **In Len We Trust** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 4:38 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:You mean a fluke bad signing?

Lets hope.... but I was snidely whiplashing McDo here.... as both our off season signings (IT+ Tolly) have had question marks on them. McDo started out great guns with Bled for Dud, ...cant recall if he had anything to to with Scola, but since then.....??? A decent draft , may be two....? And .. um ... and ....?

GM's fall prey to the 'What have you done for me lately' litmus test more than most.

You're not giving McD his due. He hired Jeff Hornacek, he traded Scola for Green and Plum, traded Gortat (which allowed us to play the way we did last year), traded Dudley for Bledsoe, drafted Alex Len, drafted/acquired young talent (Warren, Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock)...let us not forget the days of Sean Marks being out 9th man.....yikes!, acquired Brandan Wright, stuck to his guns and resigned Bledsoe at less than the max. Tolliver was a mistake, but one he recognized early and fixed (basically upgraded from Tolly to Wright), and in my opinion the jury is still out on IT. So, he's made 2 mistakes in his 2 years as GM here, one of which he's already fixed at no cost to the team. So one mistake in 2 years, or 1 mistake in call it, 10 decisions? I'll take a 90% success rate.

Hiring Hornacek was easily his worst move. Overall he's a great GM though.

SideSwipe · Post #18 » by **SideSwipe** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 4:38 pm

Keep in mind guys that it wasn't until after the All-Star break last year that Goran really turned it on. He gets a second wind, so some of this will iron out. I think IT will need to go to get Dragic more comfortable back in the offense with the ball in his hands. He position when he is out there off the ball is not great, because we don't have distributors to feed him where he is comfortable. His game was great last year because he had freedom to run the offense how he saw fit, and he delivered.

Barkley6 · Post #19 » by **Barkley6** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 5:09 pm

In Len We Trust wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:
Lets hope.... but I was snidely whiplashing McDo here.... as both our off season signings (IT+ Tolly) have had question marks on them. McDo started out great guns with Bled for Dud, ...cant recall if he had anything to to with Scola, but since then.....??? A decent draft , may be two....? And .. um ... and ....?

GM's fall prey to the 'What have you done for me lately' litmus test more than most.

You're not giving McD his due. He hired Jeff Hornacek, he traded Scola for Green and Plum, traded Gortat (which allowed us to play the way we did last year), traded Dudley for Bledsoe, drafted Alex Len, drafted/acquired young talent (Warren, Ennis, Goodwin, Bullock)...let us not forget the days of Sean Marks being out 9th man.....yikes!, acquired Brandan Wright, stuck to his guns and resigned Bledsoe at less than the max. Tolliver was a mistake, but one he recognized early and fixed (basically upgraded from Tolly to Wright), and in my opinion the jury is still out on IT. So, he's made 2 mistakes in his 2 years as GM here, one of which he's already fixed at no cost to the team. So one mistake in 2 years, or 1 mistake in call it, 10 decisions? I'll take a 90% success rate.

Hiring Hornacek was easily his worst move. Overall he's a great GM though.

Don't agree with that. Hornacek, a first time head coach, took a roster most thought would be lucky to win 20 games and won 48. This year, he's got us in the playoff picture. He's not perfect and he has some things to improve upon, but he's doing good work, can't honestly think of another realistic candidate who would have been better.

sunsfever68 · Post #20 » by **sunsfever68** » Sat Feb 7, 2015 5:30 pm

Goran is not a pure shooter

anyone who plays basketball knows when you have the ball in your hands and you're moving around with it and you're cutting, moving in space there's energy and motion and when you catch and shoot you have energy and more power on the shot which a lot of times can help it go in.

It's very hard to standstill get passed the ball square up, no momentum, no energy, no dribble and shoot a 3 and make it. You'll see most shots go front rim bc players have engrained in them the muscle movements and they don't want to overcompensate and overshoot.

Goran should be the PG running the show as much as possible getting others involved, and making things happen. He's not as lighting quick in the half court as Bledsoe, but his worth is as a point guard.

The only way this works is if we completely retrain Goran this summer and beyond to be a 2 guard which is a completely different skill set and transition than being a 1 or a 1 1/2 where he's going back and forth